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12/12/08: "Auld, Allen, & Bertuzzi...WHAT!?!?" Panthers @ Flames

View Poll Results: Tonights Winner:
PANTHERS 20 62.50%
flames 12 37.50%
Voters: 32. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
12-13-2008, 04:00 PM
  #201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rattrick View Post
I'm on the side that PDB has done something that I really don't think JM could have done. Granted, we don't know if the team will bomb late in the season, but winning this early and the season and doing it with the injuries we've had is just incredible.

We're noticeably better late in games which supports (hell, I think it definitively proves) the notion that JM changed his game plan late in games.

Another thing we never did with JM was win back-to-backs or score with the goalie pulled -- two things we've already done this year.

I agree with some, if this team makes the playoffs I can't think of a better candidate for coach of the year than PDB.
With PDB winning these tough games with an "AHL roster" ...you'll see something that you rarely see in professional sports nowadays...when the roster is near 100% healthy... the players will be held fully accountable ,and if they do not live up to the new expectations set forth on this team, they will be the ones who are canned, and not the coach.

I love that concept as a coach myself

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12-13-2008, 05:04 PM
  #202
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oh, and i'm not the only one who feels this way. mb is on my side on this one and i'm sure there are a few others.

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if you recall, when we all argued about this last year, evidence was brought to bear that indicated JM was coaching his team to remain aggressive (at least to the extent his system allowed) late in games. the team lacked confidence and on-ice leadership, however. that, imo, is the reason they played on their heels late in games and lost so many leads.

and yes, i will stand by my statement that systems (as i said, if used with appropriate personnel) don't lose games and i guarantee you any reasonably competent coach will tell you the same thing.
Yes, I agree. I'd add to the bolded part of your post that in addition to a lack of confidence and on-ice leadership, the blueline is a lot stronger this season as well as being much more proficient at moving the puck, which enables us to spend less time in our zone and more time on the attack. JM didn't preach to the team to sit back late in games, it was a combination of all these factors that attributed to it. In fact, JM recognized what he had to change about the team in order to correct this problem and he went out and did it. I can't even count in how many post-game and pre-game interviews I saw Martin saying he preached, hell begged, his team to stay aggressive throughout the whole game and not sit back on their heels late in games. But what I think a lot of people don't grasp is that sometimes, especially in the NHL, you can't or your team can't always do what itwants to do. There's a reason that there are good teams and bad teams, great teams and poor teams. You have to have the right personnel in place to win. Just because you try hard doesn't always mean you'll succeed.

I'm not taking anything away from DeBoer, but I will agree with Zero that he has the tools in place to win games now. There's nothing magical going on here. It's pretty simple how we're winning, we're getting great goaltending and play from our defense, our forwards are buying in wholeheartedly to DeBoer's forechecking system especially now that they see that it wins even when we have 5 regular forwards and 3 of our top 6 out of the lineup, and we're working extremely hard(again a product of buying into the system by the entire team). But it can't be emphasized enough that really the engine behind this team's success right now is the goaltending/blueline. The goaltending is just the same as it was last season, but the defense is significantly improved and it's unfathomably better at moving the puck. Probably top 3 in the league right now in that regard. This blueline enables DeBoer to have success in the gameplan that he employs, and again it's better than anything JM could have dreamed of having last season. Again, I'm not taking a single thing away from DeBoer. The team has totally bought into his system and probably to his personality as well, if I was a player under him it would probably be really fun to play for him, and I think he's getting as much out of this team right now as anyone could. I told you guys he was a great coach.

As for your last paragraph Zero, yes I agree again. You can win with defensive systems too. Quite a few teams do, and several playoff teams last year did as well.

I just want to add congrats to Kreps. He deserved it, it's got to have been hard for him playing on the 4th line most of the year. Also noteworthy and indicative of how a lot of guys are contributing in their own litte ways right now, is Kreps is now 16th in the league in faceoff % at 54%. A few games ago he was 12th. And I can't find a stat for blocked shots on nhl.com, but Skrastins has got to be among the leaders in that department as well. Loumbardias said he had 54 coming into last night's game. 1/3 into the season??? That's pretty good.

And it really seems like this is becoming Weiss's team now. Wouldn't be surprised to see him named captain soon.

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Old
12-13-2008, 06:46 PM
  #203
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Acording to nhl.com, Skrastins is 21st in blocked shots with 59 in 27 games. Z. Michalek leads the league with 99 in 29 games.

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12-13-2008, 07:07 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by MisterBouw View Post
And it really seems like this is becoming Weiss's team now. Wouldn't be surprised to see him named captain soon.
well, grapes seems to agree! just watched CC and the panthers got a nice pat on the back - mention of their record of late, PDB and weiss. they showed his last 3 GWs. cool.

also agree on skrastins. he's a shot-blocking machine out there.

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12-13-2008, 07:15 PM
  #205
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Funny thing about Skastins blocking shots is the Colorado fans were saying he was going down to early and wasn't playing well. Not sure if he saw the trade as a wake-up call or if he's just always played like this, but I'm glad he's here and I'm glad he wasn't moved.

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Old
12-13-2008, 07:19 PM
  #206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeroG View Post
and yes, i will stand by my statement that systems (as i said, if used with appropriate personnel) don't lose games and i guarantee you any reasonably competent coach will tell you the same thing.
Well, I coach myself and will respectfully disagree. I have to change my system based on the players I have that season and I've been pretty successful so far.

You know your hockey, no doubt about it but we just disagree on some of these things.

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12-13-2008, 07:20 PM
  #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post
Funny thing about Skastins blocking shots is the Colorado fans were saying he was going down to early and wasn't playing well. Not sure if he saw the trade as a wake-up call or if he's just always played like this, but I'm glad he's here and I'm glad he wasn't moved.
Id like to see Scratch and Boynton return for at least another season after this one. Id be happy with both getting contracts up to three years, not anything longer, but we will probably see one of the two brought back since Ellerby seems to be near ready.

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12-13-2008, 07:50 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by Rattrick View Post
Well, I coach myself and will respectfully disagree. I have to change my system based on the players I have that season and I've been pretty successful so far.

You know your hockey, no doubt about it but we just disagree on some of these things.
wait, you're not disagreeing. i've been saying that systems don't lose games IF used with the right personnel! the systems floating around the league have all pretty come from years and years of hockey coaching. they all work when applied in the right circumstances. they can all fail when applied in the wrong circumstances. but the system itself isn't what's responsible for the failure, it's the application. when JM said last year his "system" wasn't different from what anyone else was using, he was right! there are guys out there playing similar systems now with great success (as mb mentioned). also JM wasn't wrong in using a more conservative system with the team the past few years. that's what the personnel dictated and when they played together within the system, guess what? they won.

so maybe we're not disagreeing after all. i hope not anyway.

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12-13-2008, 08:03 PM
  #209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeroG View Post
well, grapes seems to agree! just watched CC and the panthers got a nice pat on the back - mention of their record of late, PDB and weiss. they showed his last 3 GWs. cool.

also agree on skrastins. he's a shot-blocking machine out there.
Yeah, saw that too. It's weird seeing the Panthers starting to get kudos in the mainstream hockey media because it hasn't happened for almost a decade. It's a very strange and foreign feeling.

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Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post
Funny thing about Skastins blocking shots is the Colorado fans were saying he was going down to early and wasn't playing well. Not sure if he saw the trade as a wake-up call or if he's just always played like this, but I'm glad he's here and I'm glad he wasn't moved.
I think it was a case of a trade working out for both teams and both players involved. Both players might have needed a change of scenery and maybe systems as well.

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12-13-2008, 08:04 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by pb1300 View Post
Id like to see Scratch and Boynton return for at least another season after this one. Id be happy with both getting contracts up to three years, not anything longer, but we will probably see one of the two brought back since Ellerby seems to be near ready.
Ellerby near ready? What makes you say that?

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wait, you're not disagreeing. i've been saying that systems don't lose games IF used with the right personnel! the systems floating around the league have all pretty come from years and years of hockey coaching. they all work when applied in the right circumstances. they can all fail when applied in the wrong circumstances. but the system itself isn't what's responsible for the failure, it's the application. when JM said last year his "system" wasn't different from what anyone else was using, he was right! there are guys out there playing similar systems now with great success (as mb mentioned). also JM wasn't wrong in using a more conservative system with the team the past few years. that's what the personnel dictated and when they played together within the system, guess what? they won.

so maybe we're not disagreeing after all. i hope not anyway.
I see what you're saying. Which certainly isn't false. However, a really bad system can and will still lose games. Basically, that's why bad coaches don't make it. I don't think JM's system was that bad, but it became evident that it wasn't working well enough with our personnel whereas PDB has shown the opposite to this point.

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12-13-2008, 08:08 PM
  #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterBouw View Post
I think it was a case of a trade working out for both teams and both players involved. Both players might have needed a change of scenery and maybe systems as well.
I thought so for awhile, but I remember reading some of the Avs fans being upset with Salei this year.

I have loved Skrastins since he came here. I really want to see him resigned. Boynton on the other hand would have to take a pay cut if he were to stay IMO. I feel like we can sign someone to do his job for cheaper than 3 million.

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12-13-2008, 08:38 PM
  #212
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I don't think JM's system was that bad, but it became evident that it wasn't working well enough with our personnel whereas PDB has shown the opposite to this point.
But, PDB really doesn't have the same personnel. You can't stress enough how Ballard and McCabe and to a certain degree Boynton have improved the puck moving ability of this defense and how heavily PDB's aggressive forecheck system relies upon that in order to have success. They've also made the blueline much better defensively. A lot of the late season collapses last season were due to poor play by the blueliners in the waning minutes, also a lot of nervous plays and mistakes that this season's veteran defense doesn't make. And the collapses were also a result of poor on-ice leadership, we shipped out Jokinen and brought in a host of hard-working experienced veterans with good leadership skills. Also, the puckmoving d-men acquisitions have allowed our speedy forwards to draw a lot more penalties than last season. And JM didn't have Frolik last season either, he's been great for almost the past month now and not only does he provide us with a lot of puck possession time, but he also plays good defense and like I was talking about, drew the penalty last night in OT.

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I thought so for awhile, but I remember reading some of the Avs fans being upset with Salei this year.
I have loved Skrastins since he came here. I really want to see him resigned. Boynton on the other hand would have to take a pay cut if he were to stay IMO. I feel like we can sign someone to do his job for cheaper than 3 million.
Which is why I think the change of systems might have been good for Skrastins, and maybe the change of scenery as well.

I agree, Skrastins being re-signed has to be one of the very top priorities this summer and is pretty much a must if Bouw is traded. Boynton would definitely have to take a paycut by at least 1/3 and even then idk. We just might not be able to fit him in. Welch would be much cheaper and so would Cully, and they might leave a spot open for Ellerby or Garrison to fill, or just sign a cheap 6/7 guy.

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12-13-2008, 08:47 PM
  #213
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I see what you're saying. Which certainly isn't false. However, a really bad system can and will still lose games. Basically, that's why bad coaches don't make it. I don't think JM's system was that bad, but it became evident that it wasn't working well enough with our personnel whereas PDB has shown the opposite to this point.
well, part of my point was that the systems floating around the league have been around for a while. there are little tweaks from time to time but if you're a coach who's made it to that level, you aren't gonna be using some bat**** system. iow, there aren't "bad" systems, just bad applications of systems. the reason coaches fail is not because they choose a *bad* system, rather the *wrong* system or, more likely, they weren't able to get their players to buy into said system.

fwiw, as i've already said a hundred times, i don't think JM was using the wrong system for the roster last year. as mb has pointed out, this is a completely different team than the one JM coached. but we've been through that already...

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12-13-2008, 11:22 PM
  #214
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well, part of my point was that the systems floating around the league have been around for a while. there are little tweaks from time to time but if you're a coach who's made it to that level, you aren't gonna be using some bat**** system. iow, there aren't "bad" systems, just bad applications of systems. the reason coaches fail is not because they choose a *bad* system, rather the *wrong* system or, more likely, they weren't able to get their players to buy into said system.

fwiw, as i've already said a hundred times, i don't think JM was using the wrong system for the roster last year. as mb has pointed out, this is a completely different team than the one JM coached. but we've been through that already...
I think DeBoer is a better coach for this team than Martin, but it has little to do with the system. I think he is better able to connect with the players / press their buttons. The difference now from last month is confidence and chemistry. That's coaching.

Incidentally, it is much more enjoyable having these pointless & esoteric arguments when we are arguing about why the team is WINNING. I think we can all agree on that.

Incidentally, let's summarize some of the reasons (in no particular order) for the turnaround before this thread is closed.

1. Improved blueline
2. Improved transition game
3. Clearing pucks from crease on rebounds
4. Confidence / chemistry / mental game /attitude (i.e. coaching)
5. Improved goaltending (I disagree, but let's be thorough)
6. Injuries (Horton / Zednik - addition by subtraction)
7. Frolik makes things happen
8. Bouw's improved play
9. Weiss' timely scoring
10. Belak waived & traded
11. CPR line

I think that should about cover it

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Old
12-14-2008, 03:45 AM
  #215
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Can anyone do a GDT for today @ the Vancouver Fighting Luongos (yes, I'm ripping off GR here)?

This one's closed.

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