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"We can teach defense, we can't teach scoring".

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Old
12-14-2008, 03:22 PM
  #51
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Anyone ever stop and think about how much hockey we have played the last 30 days? Takes a real toll on a team.

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12-14-2008, 07:26 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Domenic View Post
Amen brother! Serge Savard said his teams of the 70s absolutely hated to lose - I doubt this team has that same hatred.

You can't teach offense but there are coaches out there that always seem to get their offensive stars to shine - Laviolette and Tortorella to name 2. What are the chances of hiring a couple of guys like them to draw up a few plays?
You mean Lecavalier and St-Louis right...

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12-14-2008, 08:00 PM
  #53
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We can't assume players not going to the net hard is a direct result of Carbo's incapacity of putting that strategy on the board. After all the 4th line is doing it, and carbo, from the type of player we know he was, probably has that option first on the list. Go to net. Go in net with puck if need be.

The problem to me lies more so in the fact that we don't have the horses for these kind of battles. It doesn't come natural to anybody in our top-9. D'Agostini, A. Kostitsyn and Higgins are the only ones with the odd net drive. That's it. And it's very hot and cold in Kostitsyn's case. All the others are exclusively perimeter players. Even if you tell them to shoot the puck and drive the net, they might do it for a few shifts, even games, but then always revert back to outside dipsee-doodling.

Finally, I think a guy like Latendresse has probably been pounded on with this message repeatedly, and he could have moved up the lather really quickly had he gotten the message by now, but it seems it's not happening.
I agree. It's hard, if not impossible, to teach a player how to score. But it's also hard to teach an NHL player how to play a different style than the one that got them to the NHL. It seems like it takes a conscious effort for any of the top 9 forwards to remember to drive the net.

About Latendresse, he does go to the front of the net. It's just rare that anything comes of it. I don't know why that is. It's like he's taking the coaches' instruction so literally that he's blocked out any and all instinct that would tell a goalscorer where to find that soft spot for a deflection or a rebound. That's another internal voice that you can't teach. Maybe he just doesn't have it, but it looks to me that he's thinking too much.

It's similar to SKostitsyn's now predictable hitch move on the rush. It's as though he's slowed the play down in his head, which gives the defenceman time to react and cause a turnover. When he's playing well, he makes quick decisions that slow the play on the ice, and which the create the time and space for those beautfiful passes.

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Old
12-14-2008, 08:28 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by snakeye View Post
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ET_(atari_2600)
The best game ever.



I'm not a Carboneau hater, I just found what he said to be kind of weird. By saying that he can not teach scoring, he's basically putting all the blame on the players, because they can't bury their chances, which is their own fault, and has nothing to do with the way they're being instructed to play.

I'd be curious to see how the team would react with a different coach behind the bench. It could be that Carboneau is not that good of a motivator, but it could also be that the players that compose this team have very little heart, and that the coach has nothing to do with their poor performance.
Bingo!

They've proven it. I'll put it this way....if they had heart...they would not be denied. The only guys I see driving to the net are Koivu, Kost, Begin, Laps, Higgins, D'agostini and Lang to a degree. The rest....fugghetaboudit...watch them play, they don't drive to the net, they don't stand in front of the net and they don't fight for the puck or for position....i t's chronic heart failure...we're one of the easiest teams to check...just go near them and they give up. It's pathetic.

IMO, this started playoffs last year...they got a serious dose of N/A style playoff hockey, and they now have post traumatic stress disorder.

I feel for Carbo...and for Gainey for having faith and confidence in this cowardly group. Those 2 guys were fearless warriors...it must kill them to watch these wimps.

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12-14-2008, 08:32 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by davedave View Post
I agree. It's hard, if not impossible, to teach a player how to score. But it's also hard to teach an NHL player how to play a different style than the one that got them to the NHL. It seems like it takes a conscious effort for any of the top 9 forwards to remember to drive the net.
Yeah but the coaches have to accept some responsibility some of the time as well. The fact is, we're not getting production out of our most important offensive players, and Carbo's happy just to scratch his head and say he's stumped to the media. Which translates as "What do you want me to tell you: I've done my job, my players aren't doing theirs." And going to the net is only effective if that puck is on its way there. That doesn't seem to be the case nearly enough this season. There's way too much perimeter stuff going on. The reason that the fourth line is looking so good is that they're using their speed in the puck retrieval game and then just -- almost predictably -- putting pucks on net.

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12-14-2008, 08:33 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by LesCanadiens View Post
Bingo!

They've proven it. I'll put it this way....if they had heart...they would not be denied. The only guys I see driving to the net are Koivu, Kost, Begin, Laps, Higgins, D'agostini and Lang to a degree. The rest....fugghetaboudit...watch them play, they don't drive to the net, they don't stand in front of the net and they don't fight for the puck or for position....i t's chronic heart failure...we're one of the easiest teams to check...just go near them and they give up. It's pathetic.

IMO, this started playoffs last year...they got a serious dose of N/A style playoff hockey, and they now have post traumatic stress disorder.

I feel for Carbo...and for Gainey for having faith and confidence in this cowardly group. Those 2 guys were fearless warriors...it must kill them to watch these wimps.
It's all about fitting in the right mix. Grabovski, Ryder, Ribeiro and all the others we lost had no heart at some point....They found the perfect mix for them and then heart was not questioned again.

All those players with no heart? As a whole? Maybe. Individually? Can't be 'cause of the tons of examples given already. It can happen though there's always 1 or 2 rotten apples in the lot but that many?

Will never believe it. Not enough leadership in that dressing room? That's my best bet and it starts with the coach and with the players as much as people in here would LOVE to deny it. That's just an opinion though, I'm not in the dressing room but tons of people are NOT just Koivu haters....But it doesn't start and end with Koivu. The captain has a role but not every role.

In the end, you can teach defense, and you probably can't teach scoring but you sure as hell can't teach leadership.

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12-14-2008, 08:38 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by LesCanadiens View Post
Bingo!

They've proven it. I'll put it this way....if they had heart...they would not be denied. The only guys I see driving to the net are Koivu, Kost, Begin, Laps, Higgins, D'agostini and Lang to a degree. The rest....fugghetaboudit...watch them play, they don't drive to the net, they don't stand in front of the net and they don't fight for the puck or for position....i t's chronic heart failure...we're one of the easiest teams to check...just go near them and they give up. It's pathetic.
I also agree with this to a certain extent. We definitely miss Higgins -- one of the only guys we have that goes to the middle of the ice. D'Ago should be tough to move out of the lineup because he's doing it consistently as well. Pleks has been pretty easy to bump off the puck this year. Tanguay's just allergic to contact and it even forces him to make rushed passes to avoid getting pasted, IMO.

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12-14-2008, 08:39 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Sure, let's put all the blame on our players. They're all little girls that are scared to break a nail.
I'll agree that the players are the ones that will have to go to net, if they don't Carbo can't jump on the ice to place them there.

That being said, he's the COACH. What is he there for if he can't even coach his players??..what is he there for if the players don't even follow his demands??..What is he doing??..
Sure, we can blame the players for lacking intensity and grit, but we can also question the coach when he says things like ''it goes in one ear and comes out the other'' or ''I tell them, but they don't listen'', etc... Choose the quote you want, Carbo said a million of them to the media since the beginning of the season.

The players hold their share of responsibilities, but so does the coach. All of them are part of this team, they're all in the same boat.
If it's 2-3 bad games, here and there, fine it's the players fault not sticking to the game plan or making mistakes. The team is doing generally well, so no big changes, if any, are needed.
But during a slump, that's when a coach is tested because he'll have to do new things.

We're still doing well and I think we played good yesterday considering we're missing 4regulars, it's unfortunate we lost that way but i'm not worried at all.

I just feel Carbo whines a lot about his players. That's not good at all.
You can't coach heart, character and selfless desire. Players that have those qualities (essential to win), don't need a coach. You think the Habs teams of the 70's needed Bowman to tell them to play with fearless pride and desire? Not a chance. Do you think Patrick Roy,Carbs, Muller et al needed to be told to try their butts off and play with fire? Nope.

This isn't about one game. And I have know we'll do just fine in the standings.....but, it's becoming painfully obvious to me that we'll never win a championship with this many prima-donnas on our team and without more guys that play like they hate to lose.

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Old
12-14-2008, 08:40 PM
  #59
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whoah. I thought this was an incredibly self explanatory quote, that any reasonably informed fan would comprehend. The reaction is baffling.

Scoring touch, finish, instinct, whatever you want to call it, is a skill that is uncovered (or not) in early development. Ask Tom Kostopoulos and Alex Kovalev about it.

I would have thought those familiar with Carbonneau's career would understand the personal experience driving this quote.

Carbo is 100 percent correct.

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12-14-2008, 08:51 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
It's all about fitting in the right mix. Grabovski, Ryder, Ribeiro and all the others we lost had no heart at some point....They found the perfect mix for them and then heart was not questioned again.

All those players with no heart? As a whole? Maybe. Individually? Can't be 'cause of the tons of examples given already. It can happen though there's always 1 or 2 rotten apples in the lot but that many?

Will never believe it. Not enough leadership in that dressing room? That's my best bet and it starts with the coach and with the players as much as people in here would LOVE to deny it. That's just an opinion though, I'm not in the dressing room but tons of people are NOT just Koivu haters....But it doesn't start and end with Koivu. The captain has a role but not every role.

In the end, you can teach defense, and you probably can't teach scoring but you sure as hell can't teach leadership.

Koivu can't carry everyone. It's our top 2 lines that are the biggest problem...IMO it's AK, SK, Kovalev and Plecanek. At any given time those guys usually are in the top 6. That's 3-4 out of 6 of our top 6 players....no way Koivu can carry all of them. They often (especially with Higgins out) make/made up 2/3 of line 1 and line 2.

They for either selfish penalties, wimpy play or simply individualism were a big reason why we got bounced around last playoff....

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Old
12-14-2008, 09:10 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Jedrik View Post
Yeah but the coaches have to accept some responsibility some of the time as well. The fact is, we're not getting production out of our most important offensive players, and Carbo's happy just to scratch his head and say he's stumped to the media. Which translates as "What do you want me to tell you: I've done my job, my players aren't doing theirs." And going to the net is only effective if that puck is on its way there. That doesn't seem to be the case nearly enough this season. There's way too much perimeter stuff going on. The reason that the fourth line is looking so good is that they're using their speed in the puck retrieval game and then just -- almost predictably -- putting pucks on net.
Well, I agree and disagree. I think Carbonneau is trying lots of things, but I also think that he's been given a team that, as far as collective personality goes, likes to play on the perimeter. Maybe he's not doing enough, but I also wonder what can you really do as a coach. So far, he's tried patience, line juggling, team meetings, theatrical press conferences, benchings and call-ups. What's left?

In a way, it's a funny situation. The Habs aren't badly off in the Conference. Is it Carbonneau's fault that they're not doing better, or the players'? Or is the question, are we over analyzing and over expecting? Come May (hopefully June), all of this drama will probably be just one act in a long season.

I think the team will play better when it finally realizes that it's not the Conference's best contender by fiat. Right now, other teams are better because they're playing better. Better is what better does. It's that simple, and I think (hope) they'll figure it out.

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12-14-2008, 09:24 PM
  #62
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Why don't the Habs try bringing in former players to "tutor" some of their younger players. Why not bring in John Leclair and have him work with Latendresse? Carbo can't teach the big-body game, so why not try someone who actually played it? I'm sure that there are a lot of ex-players that would jump at the chance to work with a NHL club in a coaching position.

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Old
12-14-2008, 09:42 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by earl the habs fan View Post
whoah. I thought this was an incredibly self explanatory quote, that any reasonably informed fan would comprehend. The reaction is baffling.

Scoring touch, finish, instinct, whatever you want to call it, is a skill that is uncovered (or not) in early development. Ask Tom Kostopoulos and Alex Kovalev about it.

I would have thought those familiar with Carbonneau's career would understand the personal experience driving this quote.

Carbo is 100 percent correct.
This aint the place for common sense....

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Old
12-14-2008, 09:43 PM
  #64
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Well, I agree and disagree. I think Carbonneau is trying lots of things, but I also think that he's been given a team that, as far as collective personality goes, likes to play on the perimeter. Maybe he's not doing enough, but I also wonder what can you really do as a coach. So far, he's tried patience, line juggling, team meetings, theatrical press conferences, benchings and call-ups. What's left?

In a way, it's a funny situation. The Habs aren't badly off in the Conference. Is it Carbonneau's fault that they're not doing better, or the players'? Or is the question, are we over analyzing and over expecting? Come May (hopefully June), all of this drama will probably be just one act in a long season.

I think the team will play better when it finally realizes that it's not the Conference's best contender by fiat. Right now, other teams are better because they're playing better. Better is what better does. It's that simple, and I think (hope) they'll figure it out.
I'm not actually trying to pinpoint Carbo as the sole problem, so I agree with your mixed agreeing, in other words. I'm not too crazy about the makeup of our team up front. Even if they were all clicking really well, I still think I'd have reservations in the back of my mind looking toward the playoffs. Pains me to say it, but I would just love to have a Lucic capable of playing in our top 9, potentially top 6.

But I also don't think that Carbo sees the same problem areas that I do as a fan, personally. He seems unhappy that our players aren't burying their chances, but I'm more astonished that we can't seem to get pucks deep. It doesn't bug me so much if we're playing a strong possession game, getting a ton of chances, and just hitting a lot of crossbars. After a while you have to think they'll come. But we're really not possessing the puck very effectively at all. Also, I'm not at practice, so I don't know, but I just wonder what the hell he's doing to address the power play. Some of that has to come down to design, as well.

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12-14-2008, 10:01 PM
  #65
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You can't teach "clutch".

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12-14-2008, 10:03 PM
  #66
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You can't teach "clutch".
Well then you don't have to teach that to the Habs. They play "clutch" hockey every other night..

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12-14-2008, 11:23 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by earl the habs fan View Post
whoah. I thought this was an incredibly self explanatory quote, that any reasonably informed fan would comprehend. The reaction is baffling.

Scoring touch, finish, instinct, whatever you want to call it, is a skill that is uncovered (or not) in early development. Ask Tom Kostopoulos and Alex Kovalev about it.

I would have thought those familiar with Carbonneau's career would understand the personal experience driving this quote.

Carbo is 100 percent correct.
I can't agree more. But it seems to be a lot more fun for some to blame Carbo... meh, to each our own...

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This aint the place for common sense....
That drew a chuckle out of me!

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12-14-2008, 11:55 PM
  #68
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Why does it always come down to heart and desire...

like the guy is missing the net by an inch because he doesnt have enough heart or something ?


If it was all about heart, Gorges would be a candidate for the Norris and Begin would score 40 per season...

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12-15-2008, 12:00 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
Why does it always come down to heart and desire...

like the guy is missing the net by an inch because he doesnt have enough heart or something ?


If it was all about heart, Gorges would be a candidate for the Norris and Begin would score 40 per season...
But if Kovalev had Gorges and Begin's heart, he'd be making Ovechkin's type money... it's a fact that if talent doesn't work hard, it's just doesn't work.

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12-15-2008, 12:00 AM
  #70
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This team is looking for themselves. Carbo's problem is that the media question him, talk about him and for many coaches, that's a big load.
We can't always say the right thing! so why expect Carboneau to do so.
What I see from Carbo is that he wants the team to work hard. Skilled or not, find it somewhere. He must stay on top of this team and we all hated it, but the putting the fourth line on the pp was called for. We still have a good team and he is showing this team that he will do what's best in his mind for the team. Regardless of what the media are calling for.

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12-15-2008, 12:02 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
Why does it always come down to heart and desire...

like the guy is missing the net by an inch because he doesnt have enough heart or something ?


If it was all about heart, Gorges would be a candidate for the Norris and Begin would score 40 per season...
My take exactly... So funny...

If Tanguay scores 2 and Kovalev scores 1 yesterday (they hit respectively 2 and 1 post), we talk about how good a game they actually played and how they worked to get their team a win.

They hit the post, bah they don't have enough heart. It's getting annoying.

There's 30 teams in the NHL for god sake... Sometimes the opponent is outplaying you, this is what each sport is about, hockey included. Accept the loss and move on.

In fact, there's a lot of reasons to be looking forward after the end of yesterday's game. Let's move on and wait the next game, I'm sure the guys will come out strong.

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Old
12-15-2008, 12:10 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Jedrik View Post
I'm not actually trying to pinpoint Carbo as the sole problem, so I agree with your mixed agreeing, in other words. I'm not too crazy about the makeup of our team up front. Even if they were all clicking really well, I still think I'd have reservations in the back of my mind looking toward the playoffs. Pains me to say it, but I would just love to have a Lucic capable of playing in our top 9, potentially top 6.

But I also don't think that Carbo sees the same problem areas that I do as a fan, personally. He seems unhappy that our players aren't burying their chances, but I'm more astonished that we can't seem to get pucks deep. It doesn't bug me so much if we're playing a strong possession game, getting a ton of chances, and just hitting a lot of crossbars. After a while you have to think they'll come. But we're really not possessing the puck very effectively at all. Also, I'm not at practice, so I don't know, but I just wonder what the hell he's doing to address the power play. Some of that has to come down to design, as well.
I see what you're saying, especially about the PP.

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12-15-2008, 12:27 AM
  #73
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I get what Carbo is saying here. It's not the coaches fault if a player cannot finish the puck. Carbo is not going to go onto the ice and score, some players have to bear down a bit here.

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12-15-2008, 12:31 AM
  #74
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I get what Carbo is saying here. It's not the coaches fault if a player cannot finish the puck. Carbo is not going to go onto the ice and score, some players have to bear down a bit here.
To the players' defense, Carbonneau is really not helping them to get their confidence back by shuffling the lines every single game and calling his players out in front of the media.

I've yet to hear Carbonneau praise a player in front of the media without them doing so first. And your favorite (Grabovski) admit himself that Carbonneau never really talked to him before he was traded and when he was playing for the Montreal Canadiens.

I like Carbonneau and I have no doubt he'll keep on improving, but if he wants his guys to play as a team, maybe he should begin with himslef and try to understand he's a part of this team and that the solution relies on the players as much as the coach.

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12-15-2008, 12:42 AM
  #75
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Originally Posted by LesCanadiens View Post
Just slightly out of context...what he said is that we've been getting piles of chances...and our players aren't burying them. How do you teach a player not to hit the post or fan on the puck? You can't. How do you go up to Kovalev and say..."Kovy, gonna teach you a few things about scoring".

Funny how all the Carbo haters are so quick to pick at anything (even if it's out of context, like a cheap reporter) they can. Really, I think Carbo knows more about this game than any of us armchair quarterbacks.
This can be assumed for just about any comparison between someone who has actually played at the NHL and someone who is posting on the interwebz. Now, whether he knows more than the other guys qualified and available to coach in the NHL is another question. But yeah, I always get a laugh out of criticism from "those in the know" in the peanut galleries.

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