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Old
12-14-2008, 06:24 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Britton View Post
Uhh what exactly is Vancouver gaining with this trade.
Nothing. Absoooooluuuutley nothing. They also dont even have the cap room to make this trade. Habs fans are funny sometimes.

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Old
12-14-2008, 06:29 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Analyzer View Post
Nahhhh for that overrated price of Ohlund, I wouldn't do that. Ohlund is worth a late first and a low-end prospect| mid prospect. Not one of the top prospect in Montreal,s prospect pool.
this is the problem with these kind of proposals.

people look at past deals and then assume that "this is what so and so is worth" ... where this fails every time is that you treat every team the same - as if they all need the same return, and they'd all be willing to move those assets at the same price.

this is why you can't conclude that just because a similar player with a similar contract was traded for X-amount before, they'd have the same worth now, regardless of team!

What Ohlund is *actually* worth is what it'd cost to actually get him from the canucks.

If Ohlund was on LA or TBay or another non-playoff team, then you'd have a point... for those teams moving a player like Ohlund, with his UFA status, will probably cost the same as similar players/similar contracts that were moved before.

But Ohlund is on the canucks... the canucks are a playoff team, not matter what habs fans think here... even if you think we suck and lose in the 1st round, it's still a team that is more likely to make it to the playoffs than not this season.

If you want to know what he's really worth, how much does it take to get a player who's very good in the playoffs, is a key part of his team, and is on a playoff team right now? what have similar players, on teams in similar situations, been traded for before?

can't find comparables? maybe it's because teams that have such players don't trade them!

Ohlund's value is not similar to what UFA dmen in the past were dealt for... because the canucks aren't going to trade him for that kind of a return.

having said that, I've said this before to habs fans that keep targeting Ohlund - wouldn't it make more sense to look for a dman from a team that isn't going to the playoffs and will likely be sellers at the deadline? Vancouver is as likely to trade Ohlund for futures or players that don't make them better now, as the Habs would be willing to trade guys like Tanguay, Koivu or other soon to be UFAs on their team... maybe these guys aren't worth more than a 1st and a low/mid prospect - but as a habs fan, in a season when you are playoff contenders, do you ever consider such deals? Does that mean that's his value, even though the Habs would never deal said player for that amount?

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Old
12-14-2008, 06:30 PM
  #28
Bunter McVirtanen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by topheavyhookjaw View Post
Ohlund
Grabner

for

1st
Mac-Pac
From a Vancouver POV, I think that this is a fair value.

MON 2009 1st < Grabner
Mac-Pac > UFA Mattias Ohlund

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Old
12-14-2008, 06:36 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toddbertuzzi712 View Post
From a Vancouver POV, I think that this is a fair value.

MON 2009 1st < Grabner
Mac-Pac > UFA Mattias Ohlund
and neither the 1st or "Mac-Pac" do anything to help the team this season.

There is just no way the canucks make such a deal. Imagine how the players on the team would feel - you're in a season when they're playing like they'll make the playoffs... so in a season like that you deal away an assistant captain, a valuable current player, and arguably the best playoff performer (outside of Luongo) on the team!

is that the message you want to send to the rest of the team?

this is why such teams *never* make such trades... for the canucks to deal Ohlund this season, you'd have to justify that you're actually improving their chances this year in the playoffs by moving him. Otherwise you keep the player, even if you risk losing him for nothing in the offseason.

We see teams hold on to their "rentals" and lose them in FA every season... we never see such teams (that have a playoff shot) deal them in any year.

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Old
12-14-2008, 07:08 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeafTrueBlue91 View Post
ohlund and raymond for stralman and a 4th
Horrible. Worst Proposal ever!

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Old
12-14-2008, 08:02 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Space Can 2 View Post
Ok how about:

To Montreal:
Ohlund
Raymond
1st 09

To Vancouver:
Latendresse
Carle
2nd 10
this is even worse

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Old
12-14-2008, 08:07 PM
  #32
Oleg Petrov
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Space Can 2 View Post
Latendresse >= Raymond
1st = 1st

So it's basically a future number 3/4 d-man in O'Byrne and a future 2nd line scorer in Maxwell for an aging rental. Sounds fair to me.
You have got to be kidding. Raymond smokes Tenderness.

Counter offer:

To VAN
S Kost
A Kost

To MTL
Ohlund
Raymond
1st in 09 or 10

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Old
12-14-2008, 08:46 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oleg Petrov View Post
You have got to be kidding. Raymond smokes Tenderness.

Counter offer:

To VAN
S Kost
A Kost

To MTL
Ohlund
Raymond
1st in 09 or 10
I don't think Vancouver could get Sergei alone for that package.

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Old
12-14-2008, 08:56 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Space Can 2 View Post
I don't think Vancouver could get Sergei alone for that package.
hope you're being sarcastic there, cause I wouldn't want to call you a homer for making a joke.

you don't actually believe that Sergei is worth more than that pkg do you??

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Old
12-14-2008, 09:06 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO View Post
hope you're being sarcastic there, cause I wouldn't want to call you a homer for making a joke.

you don't actually believe that Sergei is worth more than that pkg do you??
Ok maybe it's fair, but Sergei is 2 years younger than Raymond and already better. He's bigger and much more skilled. Just look at his stats.

A late 1st and a rental may or may not be enough to make up the difference between SK and Raymond.

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Old
12-14-2008, 09:16 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Space Can 2 View Post
Ok maybe it's fair, but Sergei is 2 years younger than Raymond and already better. He's bigger and much more skilled. Just look at his stats.

A late 1st and a rental may or may not be enough to make up the difference between SK and Raymond.
yea, I guess I'm going to have to call you a homer on this one then.

First of all, you've ignored Ohlund... he's not chump change here, and despite his contract has value - even pessimistically you can't believe his value is lower than a 1st and a low end prospect??

secondly, look at the stats!! you said it yourself!

Raymond is in his 2nd year this year, and has 7 goals and 7 assists for 14 pts. He's also a +8 this year.

SK is also in his 2nd year... has 3 goals, 6 assists for 9 pts. He is also a +1 as well.

Last year was each of their rookie years in the NHL - Raymond had 9 goals, 12 assists for 21 pts in 49 games (0.43 PPG).... SK was with 9 goals, 18 assists for 27 pts in 52 games (0.52 PPG).

so far in their NHL careers, Raymond has 16 goals and 35 pts in 79 games. SK has 12 goals and 36 pts in 78 games.

so I'm looking at the stats, and I fail to see how SK is a 1st round and a player like Ohlund better than Raymond??

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Old
12-14-2008, 09:19 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Space Can 2 View Post
Ok how about:

To Montreal:
Ohlund
Raymond
1st 09

To Vancouver:
Latendresse
Carle
2nd 10
What makes you think the Nucks would consider this? Whats your reasoning behind this from Vancouvers POV?

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Old
12-14-2008, 09:39 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oleg Petrov View Post
You have got to be kidding. Raymond smokes Tenderness.

Counter offer:

To VAN
S Kost
A Kost

To MTL
Ohlund
Raymond
1st in 09 or 10
Crap! Spilled my beer reading that!

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Old
12-15-2008, 12:25 AM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Analyzer View Post
Nahhhh for that overrated price of Ohlund, I wouldn't do that. Ohlund is worth a late first and a low-end prospect| mid prospect. Not one of the top prospect in Montreal,s prospect pool.
Thats fine, Vancouver will go in to the playoffs with Ohlund and you with out. I dont think anyone out west cares if you fill a aparent hole in your line up or not, afterall its not like your team is going all out this year or anything.

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Old
12-15-2008, 12:40 AM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Space Can 2 View Post
I don't think there's would be any trouble getting Ohlund to waive it to come to Montreal, a lot of players like to play here.

And you're not getting spare parts, Latendresse is a young power forward, he's gonna score 30+ someday. And Maxwell is gonna be a good scoring 2nd line center.
If Latendresse is going to score 30 one day than Raymond will score 40. See Raymond also has potential, and in my eyes(i like Latendresse) he has alot more potential then him, is a better producer now and has another year on his rookie contract.
A Van 1st in 09 is not equal to a Mont 1st in 10, not even close...to even that out you would need to add couple 2nd rounders, say in 09 and 10. If you dont beleive me then look at the history of draft day trades. As far as the other prospects go, their just prospects and not special in the least bit, every team has a pile of similar ones including the Canucks. I like Maxwell and think he will be a consistent NHL player at some point, O'Byrne on the other hand I dont see much value in.
Really this is what would be more fair, AND thats assuming the Canucks have a replacement for Ohlund lined up via a trade because like Montreal the Canucks are looking to make a run in the playoffs.
Ohlund, Raymond
for
Lang, Latendresse, 09 1st

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Old
12-15-2008, 12:44 AM
  #41
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take out the 1st's, Raymond and maxwell and maybe a deal can be made but not sure if it's doable.

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Old
12-15-2008, 12:45 AM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO View Post
and neither the 1st or "Mac-Pac" do anything to help the team this season.

There is just no way the canucks make such a deal. Imagine how the players on the team would feel - you're in a season when they're playing like they'll make the playoffs... so in a season like that you deal away an assistant captain, a valuable current player, and arguably the best playoff performer (outside of Luongo) on the team!

is that the message you want to send to the rest of the team?

this is why such teams *never* make such trades... for the canucks to deal Ohlund this season, you'd have to justify that you're actually improving their chances this year in the playoffs by moving him. Otherwise you keep the player, even if you risk losing him for nothing in the offseason.

We see teams hold on to their "rentals" and lose them in FA every season... we never see such teams (that have a playoff shot) deal them in any year.
I don't know, if these three things happen:

1. Luongo's injury takes even longer to heal, say he's on the shelf until February.

2. Sundin doesn't sign here

3. no progress is made re-signing Ohlund

you might see such a deal. Max Pac doesn't help this team this year, nor does the first, but it re-stocks the prospect cupboard and might allow us (with two first rounders) to trade up and grab a guy like Duchene to play with Cody. Or to grab two good defensemen in the first round. I'm not saying I'd do that deal for sure, but if Luongo was to be out significantly longer, and Sundin doesn't sign, and Ohlund is not already locked up, then I think we might see such a deal. I look at the Campbell package and find a player worse than Bernier to add to the first rounder to get a fair deal.

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Old
12-15-2008, 12:53 AM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Space Can 2 View Post
Latendresse >= Raymond
1st = 1st

So it's basically a future number 3/4 d-man in O'Byrne and a future 2nd line scorer in Maxwell for an aging rental. Sounds fair to me.
Hey why dont you just say all Montreal players are better than Vancouver players, afteral its not like Vancouver is having a good season, and hell if they were then im sure it wouldent be because of the skill level of the players on the team. Have you ever watched Raymond play, do you know anything about him? I can tell you I have watched Latendress play plenty of times, he is a good player, but to just say he is better than Raymond is just pure homerism. Like has been pointed out earlier Raymond has been as consistent as anyone of your prized Kostitsyn brothers, hell Demitra asked to play with him because he thinks he has the skill set of Gaborik and said he expects him to score over 30 this year(i think the Gaborki comparison is a bit of stretch but still he has definite talent). Raymond plays the point on the powerplays also and has had some bad luck this year, yet he still has 14 points and will surely turn it around before the season is up.


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Old
12-15-2008, 01:01 AM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Space Can 2 View Post
To Montreal:
Ohlund
Raymond
1st '09

To Vancouver:
Maxwell
Latendresse
O'Byrne
1st '10
How about Andrei and Sergei Kostitsyn for Darcy Hordichuk and Rick Rypien?

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Old
12-15-2008, 01:50 AM
  #45
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I don't see Ohlund being moved unless we recieve Higgins back.

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Old
12-15-2008, 05:55 AM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asterix View Post
I don't think that Ohlund would wave his NTC to come to Montreal.

Even if he did, looking at it value-wise, it's a gross overpayment from Montreal's point of view due to Ohlund's UFA status at the end of the season. Replace Ohlund with Bieksa and we can look into this.
How so? Do you realize that the Nucks are throwing in Raymond and a 1st rd pick?

Montreal gets a very good dman and a good young forward who can play in the top 6. I really don't see why the Nucks would be thrilled about getting Latendresse? O'Bryne would hardly crack Vancouver's top 6 and Maxwell is a decent prospect. The Nucks give up too much in this deal.

The Canucks are not going to send out Ohlund in a package. In fact, the Nucks are highly unlikely to even deal Ohlund.

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Old
12-15-2008, 07:13 AM
  #47
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Take the trade and RUN GAINEY RUN!!!!

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Old
12-15-2008, 09:23 AM
  #48
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With the Canucks being a playoff team, I can't see them trading away Ohlund, even if he's a UFA at seasons end. What kind of message does that send to their fans? If the Canucks look to be out of the playoffs, I can see them wanting to get something for Ohlund, but not until they're out of the playoff race.

If the Habs want a number 4 DMan, it's better to look elsewhere IMHO.

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Old
12-15-2008, 09:52 AM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toddbertuzzi712 View Post
Are you on crack!??! Other than Maxwell, all those pieces of the trade suck! We have no need for O'Byrne, Latendresse would be decent, and the 1st in 2010 is likely to be a 20+ pick in a weak draft. On the other hand, we give you our best D-man, one of our best young players, and a top 15 pick in a DEEEP draft?

Keep dreaming buddy ...

Start with the Higgins/Kostitsyns
As a habs fan, I agree. When I saw someone said it was overpayment by habs fans, I laughed. I don't think Van wants to piss away their playoff run and give the habs a cup for no apparent reason other than to take a bunch of our salary and 2 barely passable NHLers.... give me a break.

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Old
12-15-2008, 11:23 AM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Space Can 2 View Post
To Montreal:
Ohlund
Raymond
1st '09

To Vancouver:
Maxwell
Latendresse
O'Byrne
1st '10
I'd say no to that trade.

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