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Old
12-17-2008, 05:44 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
I guess Berube is teaching Gagne, Richards, Carter, Knuble, Metro and Hartnell how to PK. Do people actually believe that?

Maybe Berube can teach Briere how to PK? That will surprise the hell out of me. Then I will believe.
Do I believe the coach responsible for coaching the PK is doing a good job of turning a group of skilled individuals into a cohesive unit?

Yes.

Having good players does not necessarily equate to good "team" play.

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12-17-2008, 06:02 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Do I believe the coach responsible for coaching the PK is doing a good job of turning a group of skilled individuals into a cohesive unit?

Yes.

Having good players does not necessarily equate to good "team" play.
Flyers were top 10 PK team in the league last year with out Berube. It's not like we were 29th or 17ths or 20th/

Good players on PK means 80% success. Homer added some speed on blue line with Vaananen and Alberts (was always good on PK). We already had Timonen and Cobrun. Plus that excellent collection of forwards not to mention Gagne replaced Umberger.

You do not see Hatch or Smith planted in front of the net. Flyers are aggressive BECAUSE they finally have speed on blue line. You do not see goals going in off players. Do you? Biron is average this season unlike last year.

If Biron played this year as good as he did last year our PK would be at 90-92%

Of course Berube shows some tapes.


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12-17-2008, 06:07 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
Good players on PK means 80% success. Homer added some speed on blue line with Vaananen and Alberts (was always good on PK). We already had Timonen and Cobrun. Plus that excellent collection of forwards not to mention Gagne replaced Umberger.

You do not see Hatch or Smith planted in front of the net. You do not see goals going in off players. Do you? Biron is average this season unlike last year.

If Biron played this year as good as he did last year our PK would be at 90-92%

Of course Berube shows some tapes.
And our PK also improved notably last year when Terry Murray took over full control of it around December...if you recall, we weren't very good at the start of last year, and finished the year as a good PK unit.

Coaching matters...and Berube is doing a good job. Do the personnel matter in getting that done? Absolutely. But it's a two-way street...just throwing those guys out there without some centralized authority making them cohesive isn't going to make them an elite NHL PK unit.

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12-17-2008, 06:24 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Not for the PK or PP, he hasn't coached them since he got here. Berube was coaching the PP during the first season (thank god that experiment ended, as he was a disaster there). Mullen has coached one of the best units in the league the last two years...and has had full credit given his way. Last year Terry Murray coached the PK and this year it's Berube.

Stevens gets credit for delegating authority--an important skill in management--but he does not get credit for either units success. And, no, he doesn't get killed for their failures either.

So, no, the Head Coach is not responsible for every aspect of what's going on out there. The Head Coach is not directly responsible for most line changes, for example, Assistant Coaches manage that. And it's been acknowledged by everyone that our Head Coach isn't responsible for our special teams.
Ridiculous comments on your part. How many practices have you attended? How many video sessions have you attended by the Flyers? Where they go over the team's play on the PK and the PP. It's the Head Coach who instills the philosophy that a team plays by. Who has input on who plays on what PP line, with who.Do you think that Stevens doesn't have any input or does any Coaching with regards to the PK or the PP, during games? That's absurd to suggest that. The Head Coach is responsible for the game plan instituted for a particular game. If you think that Stevens has no hand in either the PK or the PP, your clueless. And Stevens changes the Forward lines on the bench, during games.Obviously, your unaware. And if you think the Head Coach isn't responsible for every aspect of the team on the ice, your clueless. And so is "everyone else" who thinks so.

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Originally Posted by Jester View Post

Do we need to define "quickly," too? Because if you think losing 10 games in a row is a sign of quick recovery by the coach, you're delusional.
I think taking the team from an 0-3-3 start to a 17-4-3 run, is proof plenty that he has the ability to pull a team out of a slump. And taking a team who went from a 10 game losing streak, late in the Season, to the ECF's. Is proof of his ability to turn a team around. It doesn't get much worse than a 10 game losing streak. And yes, stevesn was also responsible for the 10 game losing streak.


Last edited by Carterfor60: 12-17-2008 at 06:35 PM.
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Old
12-17-2008, 06:49 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Carterfor60 View Post
Ridiculous comments on your part. How many practices have you attended? How many video sessions have you attended by the Flyers? Where they go over the team's play on the PK and the PP. It's the Head Coach who instills the philosophy that a team plays by. Who has input on who plays on what PP line, with who.Do you think that Stevens doesn't have any input or does any Coaching with regards to the PK or the PP, during games? That's absurd to suggest that. The Head Coach is responsible for the game plan instituted for a particular game. If you think that Stevens has no hand in either the PK or the PP, your clueless. And Stevens changes the Forward lines on the bench, during games.Obviously, your unaware. And if you think the Head Coach isn't responsible for every aspect of the team on the ice, your clueless. And so is "everyone else" who thinks so.
Stevens himself gave FULL CREDIT to Mullen for the PP last year.

Berube is getting FULL CREDIT for the PK this year.

I think Stevens is a smart enough guy to figure out that other people are better at doing things than him and lets them coach those areas of the game. The PP is a clear example of this...if you remember the tragic ineptitude of our PP the first year Stevens was here, you'll realize someone else was the mind behind that thing.

Quote:
I think taking the team from an 0-3-3 start to a 17-4-3 run, is proof plenty that he has the ability to pull a team out of a slump. And taking a team who went from a 10 game losing streak, late in the Season, to the ECF's. Is proof of his ability to turn a team around. It doesn't get much worse than a 10 game losing streak. And yes, stevesn was also responsible for the 10 game losing streak.
If you lose an entire 8th of your season in a row...you're not good at recovering. This team almost missed the playoffs last year because of that run...he hasn't shown the ability to adjust quickly at all. It was on full display in the playoffs, too...but Biron was playing so well no one noticed until Pittsburgh started to finish the chances Montreal didn't.

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12-17-2008, 06:55 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Stevens himself gave FULL CREDIT to Mullen for the PP last year.

Berube is getting FULL CREDIT for the PK this year.

I think Stevens is a smart enough guy to figure out that other people are better at doing things than him and lets them coach those areas of the game. The PP is a clear example of this...if you remember the tragic ineptitude of our PP the first year Stevens was here, you'll realize someone else was the mind behind that thing.
You didn't address the statements I made that you were incorrect in stating that Stevens doesn't Coach the PP and the PK, in any way. You are incorrect in stating that. Your also incorrect in stating that Stevens doesn't change the lines during the game.

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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
If you lose an entire 8th of your season in a row...you're not good at recovering. This team almost missed the playoffs last year because of that run...he hasn't shown the ability to adjust quickly at all. It was on full display in the playoffs, too...but Biron was playing so well no one noticed until Pittsburgh started to finish the chances Montreal didn't.
I stated in my last post that Stevens was responsible for the 10 game losing streak last year. So you don't think taking this team from the 0-3-3 start, to a 17-4-3 run, shows any ability to adjust quickly. I beg to differ. Your incorrect. It was in full display in the playoffs? LOL As he Coached a team one year removed from last place overall in the entire League, to the ECF's. What a joke.


Last edited by Carterfor60: 12-17-2008 at 07:05 PM.
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12-17-2008, 07:03 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Carterfor60 View Post
You didn't address the statements I made that you were incorrect in stating that Stevens doesn't Coach the PP and the PK, in any way. You are incorrect in stating that. Your also incorrect in stating that Stevens doesn't change the lines during the game.
Unless the Flyers changed their bench this year from last year, John Stevens does not involve himself in the line changes consistently throughout the game. They have an assistant that manages the D...and an assistant that manages the forwards. Last year, Murray ran the D, and McIlhargey ran the forwards. Murray is gone now, and I haven't bothered to look up what they're doing this year...but I doubt it's all that different.

Why, you ask? Because he's the head coach and he should theoretically be paying attention to the entire team and what is going on out there...not dealing with who is going on and off every 45 seconds. As you can imagine, that's time consuming. Not to mention watching the opposing bench to see who is coming on and off if you're matching lines. So, as of last year, John Stevens wasn't running the line changes from the bench...which is probably a wise move.

And, no, John Stevens does not coach the PP and PK. He's the Head Coach...is he around and at meetings? I'm sure he is. But those are other coaches babies and they deserve the credit and criticism as it comes. Berube got blasted for the PP in his first stint with the team...and rightfully so. He got replaced, John Stevens didn't. See how that works?

So, unless you can provide some facts to prove me wrong...you, in fact, are in error. And, sure, they probably could have changed it so that John Stevens is running line changes.

Maybe that explains why we can't get through a game without a too many men on the ice penalty...I had assumed it was on Berube.

Quote:
I stated in my last post that Stevens was responsible for the 10 game losing streak last year. So you don't think taking this team from the 0-3-3 start, to a 17-4-3 run, shows any ability to adjust quickly. I beg to differ. Your incorrect.
Not when it takes you 6 games to figure it out in the first place...quick adjustments is avoiding extended struggles. But hell, lets let him get through a season without one first before we declare him successful at adjusting. The 0-3-3 start was Biron sucking arse and a tough schedule more than anything anyone else was going to do...one thing a coach can't really do is predict hot/cold goaltending.

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12-17-2008, 07:20 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Unless the Flyers changed their bench this year from last year, John Stevens does not involve himself in the line changes consistently throughout the game. They have an assistant that manages the D...and an assistant that manages the forwards. Last year, Murray ran the D, and McIlhargey ran the forwards. Murray is gone now, and I haven't bothered to look up what they're doing this year...but I doubt it's all that different.
Absolutely 100% incorrect. Stevens changes the Forwards this year, just as he did last year. Someone who isn't aware of the very basic aspect, shouldn't be commenting on who Coaches what aspect of the team.

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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Why, you ask? Because he's the head coach and he should theoretically be paying attention to the entire team and what is going on out there...not dealing with who is going on and off every 45 seconds. As you can imagine, that's time consuming. Not to mention watching the opposing bench to see who is coming on and off if you're matching lines. So, as of last year, John Stevens wasn't running the line changes from the bench...which is probably a wise move.
Again, entirely incorrect. The Head Coach changes lines on every team.

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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
And, no, John Stevens does not coach the PP and PK. He's the Head Coach...is he around and at meetings? I'm sure he is. But those are other coaches babies and they deserve the credit and criticism as it comes. Berube got blasted for the PP in his first stint with the team...and rightfully so. He got replaced, John Stevens didn't. See how that works?
Breube got blasted by the fans. Who again, as a whole,were not aware of who does what. So you've never seen Stevens with a clipboard during games, such as during a timeout, diagramming a play when they're shorthanded late. Or on a PP? You have no clue.

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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
So, unless you can provide some facts to prove me wrong...you, in fact, are in error. And, sure, they probably could have changed it so that John Stevens is running line changes.

Maybe that explains why we can't get through a game without a too many men on the ice penalty...I had assumed it was on Berube.
I just did that. You expose yourself more with every post. Your not even aware of who changes the Forward lines during games. A simple well know fact, to anyone with basic knowledge of the game. According to you, Steven just stands there! LOL

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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Not when it takes you 6 games to figure it out in the first place...quick adjustments is avoiding extended struggles. But hell, lets let him get through a season without one first before we declare him successful at adjusting. The 0-3-3 start was Biron sucking arse and a tough schedule more than anything anyone else was going to do...one thing a coach can't really do is predict hot/cold goaltending.
Who says it took him that long to figure it out. Maybe it took the players that long to improve their play, and incorporate what Stevens was telling them. This is simple common sense. And I guess taking the team from last place overall, the the ECF's the following year, wasn't fast enough. And let me remind you that Ken Hitchcock, a Stanly Cup winning Coach, didn't effect a quick turnaround either, in 06/07, leading to his firing. So obviously, there's factors that you aren't considering. Not a surprise.

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12-17-2008, 07:31 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Carterfor60 View Post
Absolutely 100% incorrect. Stevens changes the Forwards this year, just as he did last year. Someone who isn't aware of the very basic aspect, shouldn't be commenting on who Coaches what aspect of the team.
Well, he specifically didn't last year. I just told you EXACTLY who was in charge of the respective groups throughout the course of the game.

Quote:
Again, entirely incorrect. The Head Coach changes lines on every team.
Not this one...and, no, they delegate authority for most teams. The line changes involve paying attention to far too many things. For example, assistant coaches are the ones with the stop watches for the changes...since there are two groups out there and thus two watches.

Use some common sense. Do you really think John Stevens is:

1) watching the team playing as a whole.

2) monitoring the time the forward line has been on the ice.

3) monitoring the time the defensive pairing has been on the ice.

4) going back and forth down the bench telling the five players who are going out next...they're going out next.

5) watching the opposing bench.

No, he's not. No one could. If he is...then he'd be running back and forth behind the bench the entire game, not standing in the same spot in the middle of the bench while play is ongoing and talking to the assistants from time to time.

You claim to be a paragon of common sense...start using or developing some.

Quote:
Breube got blasted by the fans. Who again, as a whole,were not aware of who does what. So you've never seen Stevens with a clipboard during games, such as during a timeout, diagramming a play when they're shorthanded late. Or on a PP? You have no clue.
Berube got dropped to the AHL...what the hell are you talking about. If they thought he was doing a good job at the NHL, you think they would have moved him down and brought in two other assistant coaches at the NHL level?

And it's actually pretty rare that Stevens is the one doing the diagramming. He frequently has the assistants doing it, Berube more than once.

Quote:
I just did that. You expose yourself more with every post. Your not even aware of who changes the Forward lines during games. A simple well know fact, to anyone with basic knowledge of the game. According to you, Steven just stands there! LOL
You didn't use a single fact...as per usual. Your blabber is just your own personal opinion. Everything I've said was common knowledge last year.

And, no, I didn't say Stevens just stands there. He watches the game, he's interfacing with his two assistants on the bench who are then the ones running their respective units. He's getting reports from Mullen who is sitting up top with a different view. He's talking to players, trainers when someone is injured, and, very rarely, the officials.

Your problem is that you don't understand how big the job of the Head Coach is during the course of the game and why that means he isn't doing all the little things during the course of the game.

It's called delegation of authority...it's how well structured units work. Just like the military, you have a guy at the top who is paying attention to big picture stuff and then passing on smaller tasks to people with "less" authority.

I'm very critical of Stevens, but he's proven very wise in how he delegates authority and allows people better suited for jobs to do those jobs. That's a very important skill for a Head Coach...the job is big and there's too much information and stuff happening for that guy to be doing everything.

Quote:
Who says it took him that long to figure it out. Maybe it took the players that long to improve their play, and incorporate what Stevens was telling them. This is simple common sense. And I guess taking the team from last place overall, the the ECF's the following year, wasn't fast enough. And let me remind you that Ken Hitchcock, a Stanly Cup winning Coach, didn't effect a quick turnaround either, in 06/07, leading to his firing. So obviously, there's factors that you aren't considering. Not a surprise.
The entire job of the coach is to figure things out and get them quickly translated onto the ice. Figuring **** out and not getting it to actually work on the ice counts for exactly jack squat. Coaching is teaching...coaching is getting the best out of your people as quickly as possible...not problem solving and getting the solution out later.

The turn around last year was the product of Paul Holmgren....not Stevens...just as the disaster of the year before was the product of too many young players not ready to step into big roles. It cost Hitch his job...and we sucked for the rest of the year, pretty much proving he wasn't the problem.

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12-17-2008, 07:43 PM
  #85
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I smell 7 pages of Jester providing facts and Carterfor60 providing nothing but baseless speculation and saying "wrong!" as if that means anything.

Somebody should start reading the paper, articles on websites, or watching the news and clips of interviews on the Flyers websites. It's like all the guy does is watch a few games and then challenges anyone who actually uses players' and coaches' words in their posts.

Heaven forbid anybody present an interview or quote as evidence in a thread. This place would be a lot better if everybody just made **** up.

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12-17-2008, 07:47 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Well, he specifically didn't last year. I just told you EXACTLY who was in charge of the respective groups throughout the course of the game.
Yes he specifically did. You are wrong. This is a simple elementary, basic hockey fact, that is the same for every team, during the game, on the bench. The Head Coach typically changes the Forward lines.

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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Not this one...and, no, they delegate authority for most teams. The line changes involve paying attention to far too many things. For example, assistant coaches are the ones with the stop watches for the changes...since there are two groups out there and thus two watches.
You are wrong. Are are exposing your lack of basic Hockey knowledge.

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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Use some common sense. Do you really think John Stevens is:

1) watching the team playing as a whole.

2) monitoring the time the forward line has been on the ice.

3) monitoring the time the defensive pairing has been on the ice.

4) going back and forth down the bench telling the five players who are going out next...they're going out next.

5) watching the opposing bench.

No, he's not. No one could. If he is...then he'd be running back and forth behind the bench the entire game, not standing in the same spot in the middle of the bench while play is ongoing and talking to the assistants from time to time.
Your mistating what I said. Stevens changes the Forward lines. McIlhargey changes the defense. In accord with the game plan and the matchups that the team is looking to get. All supervised by the Head Coach. And discusse in the team meetings before games, in the game plan. All overseen by the Head Coach. This is pee wee level stuff here, I'm having to teach you.

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You claim to be a paragon of common sense...start using or developing some.
You say this as you make a fool of yourself. LOL

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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Berube got dropped to the AHL...what the hell are you talking about. If they thought he was doing a good job at the NHL, you think they would have moved him down and brought in two other assistant coaches at the NHL level?
The reasons why Berube was moved to the AHL were documented. If they didn't trust him, or think he wasn't doing a good job, or wasn't a good Coach. Why did they make him the Head Coach of their AHL affiliate. In charge of developing some top prospects down there. You make me laugh. And waht does that have to do with the topic at hand?

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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
And it's actually pretty rare that Stevens is the one doing the diagramming. He frequently has the assistants doing it, Berube more than once.
You need to pay more attention during games. It's the norm for Stevens to be diagramming or directing play during timeouts.


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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
You didn't use a single fact...as per usual. Your blabber is just your own personal opinion. Everything I've said was common knowledge last year.
I will challenge you right now. To ask any qualified analyst of the Flyers. Any beat writer. Who changed the Forward lines for the Flyers last year during games. This is as elementary as the ABC's. You are clueless. And your exposing yourself.

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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
And, no, I didn't say Stevens just stands there. He watches the game, he's interfacing with his two assistants on the bench who are then the ones running their respective units. He's getting reports from Mullen who is sitting up top with a different view. He's talking to players, trainers when someone is injured, and, very rarely, the officials.

Your problem is that you don't understand how big the job of the Head Coach is during the course of the game and why that means he isn't doing all the little things during the course of the game.

It's called delegation of authority...it's how well structured units work. Just like the military, you have a guy at the top who is paying attention to big picture stuff and then passing on smaller tasks to people with "less" authority.

I'm very critical of Stevens, but he's proven very wise in how he delegates authority and allows people better suited for jobs to do those jobs. That's a very important skill for a Head Coach...the job is big and there's too much information and stuff happening for that guy to be doing everything.
You simply couldn't be more clueless in who does what on an NHL team. So, he just delegates during practice and games. Everyone else is better suited for things than he is? Your a joke, and extremely uninformed.

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12-17-2008, 07:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Dig Out Your Soul View Post
I smell 7 pages of Jester providing facts and Carterfor60 providing nothing but baseless speculation and saying "wrong!" as if that means anything.
This is when Jester's lapdogs come out to back him up. Just exactly what facts, that can be documented, did Jester provide?

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12-17-2008, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Carterfor60 View Post
You need to pay more attention during games. It's the norm for Stevens to be diagramming or directing play during timeouts.
Actually, no it's not. It remains fascinating how much Stevens relies on his assistant coaches for diagramming plays.

As for the rest...your assumption that all benches in the NHL are run exactly the same is displaying a lack of common sense. If you've ever worked at any job in your life, you'd understand that there is no way in hell 30 people have the exact same management style. This is proven by any number of things...John Stevens is vastly different as a Head Coach in comparison to Ken Hitchcock...from bench demeanor, to his level of technical demands being placed on the team.

The majority of your post shows gross ignorance about how this team has operated under Stevens. He delegates authority, sometimes it works well (Mullen, Murray, and Berube on the PK), sometimes it doesn't work well at all (Berube with the PP). This is a wise management style. There are going to be other coaches who take a more hands-on role in the different areas of the game, but Stevens isn't one of them.

You also have coaches who are not big fans of highly technical hockey...Pat Quinn, for example...who is impossible to compare to a guy like Lemaire or Hitch.

Of course, your belief that all coaches are the same can be proven false by the fact that coaches innovate. 20 years ago no one watched tape...Roger Nielson changed that.

Last year Jack Mcilhargey ran the forwards, and Murray ran the D. Maybe they don't feel Berube is up to the job, as said I didn't pay attention this year. But the situation was last year was widely reported...in games no less.

If that's the case, it would explain why our line changes have been borderline incompetent this year with all the too many men penalties.

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12-17-2008, 07:57 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dig Out Your Soul View Post
I smell 7 pages of Jester providing facts and Carterfor60 providing nothing but baseless speculation and saying "wrong!" as if that means anything.

Somebody should start reading the paper, articles on websites, or watching the news and clips of interviews on the Flyers websites. It's like all the guy does is watch a few games and then challenges anyone who actually uses players' and coaches' words in their posts.

Heaven forbid anybody present an interview or quote as evidence in a thread. This place would be a lot better if everybody just made **** up.
I'm not getting involved with this whole thing but really just because Stevens has assistant coaches in charge of certain things doesnt mean he isnt in on the big picture. It doesnt mean he doesnt say at certain times in the game what line he wants on the ice, or how he wants to run a PP(yes there are multiple ways) or a million other things that other coaches are in charge of. Just because berube runs the PK doesnt mean stevens looks the other way in practice and has no clue what kind of stratgy they use. Jester states facts but also goes overboard on a lot of them. Like saying he gives his assistants full credit for special teams. What do yuo really expect him to say "I'm the head coach, the special teams doing well is all because of me!".

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12-17-2008, 07:58 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Carterfor60 View Post
This is when Jester's lapdogs come out to back him up. Just exactly what facts, that can be documented, did Jester provide?
Dude, document some of your own ****. You already looked like a complete ****** with your CBA knowledge. Start footnoting yourself before you start throwing around claims of fact problems with others.

It would do you a world of good to assume that others are intellectually honest. I don't make things up to just make myself feel good, nor do most other people.

You, on the other hand, have already proven more than willing to argue from a position of ignorance and lack of knowledge.

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12-17-2008, 08:02 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by CannonGoBoom View Post
I'm not getting involved with this whole thing but really just because Stevens has assistant coaches in charge of certain things doesnt mean he isnt in on the big picture. It doesnt mean he doesnt say at certain times in the game what line he wants on the ice, or how he wants to run a PP(yes there are multiple ways) or a million other things that other coaches are in charge of. Just because berube runs the PK doesnt mean stevens looks the other way in practice and has no clue what kind of stratgy they use. Jester states facts but also goes overboard on a lot of them. Like saying he gives his assistants full credit for special teams. What do yuo really expect him to say "I'm the head coach, the special teams doing well is all because of me!".
At no point have I said Stevens doesn't have his hands in the big picture. In fact, I've given Stevens specific credit for his ability to delegate authority...meaning his ability to operate from the big picture and let assistants do their jobs effectively. The Head Coach is a big job...especially at the NHL level and none of these guys are or should be working on all the details.

If your head coach is spending his time staring at the PP or the PK, other areas are going to suffer.

What Stevens said of Mullen was that they just gave that job to him and it was all him...I'm not sure we need to parse that as some statement of him trying to be a kindly boss. It's giving credit where credit is due. Stevens deserves credit for staying out of the way.

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12-17-2008, 08:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Actually, no it's not. It remains fascinating how much Stevens relies on his assistant coaches for diagramming plays.
Your ignorance is astounding.

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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
As for the rest...your assumption that all benches in the NHL are run exactly the same is displaying a lack of common sense. If you've ever worked at any job in your life, you'd understand that there is no way in hell 30 people have the exact same management style. This is proven by any number of things...John Stevens is vastly different as a Head Coach in comparison to Ken Hitchcock...from bench demeanor, to his level of technical demands being placed on the team.
I didn't say that all benches are run the same. It's a well known fact that the Head Coach typically changes the Forward lines. You obviously don't understand in the least, how an NHL bench is run. And your now falling back into your spin mode to try and wiggle your way out of your asinine statements. I never said that each Coach is the same in their Coaching approach.

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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
The majority of your post shows gross ignorance about how this team has operated under Stevens. He delegates authority, sometimes it works well (Mullen, Murray, and Berube on the PK), sometimes it doesn't work well at all (Berube with the PP). This is a wise management style. There are going to be other coaches who take a more hands-on role in the different areas of the game, but Stevens isn't one of them.
Again, how many practices have you attended? How many times have you been in the Flyers offices to see the exact approach of how Stevens runs the team? You don't know how hands on Stevens is or isn't. Berube has responsibilties for Coaching the PK. Mullen for the PP. All Head Coaches delegate responsibilities to the Assistants. That doesn't mean that the Head Coach doesn't have a hand in it. You stated earlier that there's too much going on during a game for the Head Coach to do it all. Do you know who was the first NHL Head Caoch to hire Assistant Coaches?

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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
You also have coaches who are not big fans of highly technical hockey...Pat Quinn, for example...who is impossible to compare to a guy like Lemaire or Hitch.

Of course, your belief that all coaches are the same can be proven false by the fact that coaches innovate. 20 years ago no one watched tape...Roger Nielson changed that.
I've never once stated that all Coaches " are the same" This is a familiar pattern by you, of completely misrepresenting what someone says.

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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Last year Jack Mcilhargey ran the forwards, and Murray ran the D. Maybe they don't feel Berube is up to the job, as said I didn't pay attention this year. But the situation was last year was widely reported...in games no less.
Your incorrect. Stevens changed the Forwards. You keep mentioning it was widely reported. Where? Like I said before. I challenge you to contact any NHL analyst, and ask them who changed the Forwards, last year. I will do that for you. And I will post the response when I get it.

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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
f that's the case, it would explain why our line changes have been borderline incompetent this year with all the too many men penalties.
When were done with this. I'll educate you on how line are changed during games. And who's responsible for what, once the Coach has told the players what lines next.

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12-17-2008, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Dude, document some of your own ****. You already looked like a complete ****** with your CBA knowledge. Start footnoting yourself before you start throwing around claims of fact problems with others.

It would do you a world of good to assume that others are intellectually honest. I don't make things up to just make myself feel good, nor do most other people.

You, on the other hand, have already proven more than willing to argue from a position of ignorance and lack of knowledge.
I don't question your " intelectual honesty" I question your knowledge period. I believe you feel your right. Your not.

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12-17-2008, 08:16 PM
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Your incorrect. Stevens changed the Forwards. You keep mentioning it was widely reported. Where? Like I said before. I challenge you to contact any NHL analyst, and ask them who changed the Forwards, last year. I will do that for you. And I will post the response when I get it.
Go for it...was pretty regularly reported during games last year how the bench was operating. You have an assistant running forwards...and an assistant running the defense.

It isn't as if you've provided a single tangible fact for anything you've ever said on these boards...and the one time you offered to previously prove your point...you were wrong. I'll await.

But, if I were you, I wouldn't get so cocky when you have yet to be right about anything.

Quote:
Again, how many practices have you attended? How many times have you been in the Flyers offices to see the exact approach of how Stevens runs the team? You don't know how hands on Stevens is or isn't. Berube has responsibilties for Coaching the PK. Mullen for the PP. All Head Coaches delegate responsibilities to the Assistants. That doesn't mean that the Head Coach doesn't have a hand in it. You stated earlier that there's too much going on during a game for the Head Coach to do it all. Do you know who was the first NHL Head Caoch to hire Assistant Coaches?
Never said he didn't. I said he doesn't deserve credit for its success. If you have a guy putting 95% into something, he deserves the credit...not the guy that told him to go do it.

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12-17-2008, 08:24 PM
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Carter ... it's not worth it. Jester is either Mrs. Clarke or Mrs. Hitchcock, and therefore will never admit that Stevens is actually a worthwhile coach.

Even if the Flyers win 16 straight games in the playoffs, Stevens will still be an idiot because he doesn't want to play boring, shut everything down hockey.

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12-17-2008, 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Go for it...was pretty regularly reported during games last year how the bench was operating. You have an assistant running forwards...and an assistant running the defense.

It isn't as if you've provided a single tangible fact for anything you've ever said on these boards...and the one time you offered to previously prove your point...you were wrong. I'll await.

But, if I were you, I wouldn't get so cocky when you have yet to be right about anything.
Reported by who? If it's so widely reported, post the evidence. Where are your facts? I notice you keep tap dancing around that. I've been right about most everything. And when I was wrong about the CBA, I said so. Your free reign here is over. Your going to have to back up your nonsense.


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Never said he didn't. I said he doesn't deserve credit for its success. If you have a guy putting 95% into something, he deserves the credit...not the guy that told him to go do it.
So the Head Coach of a Hockey team, doesn't deserve credit for a team's success on the PP and the PK. How stupid! And where did you pull this 95% from? Out your a$$, obviously.

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12-17-2008, 08:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Carterfor60 View Post
Reported by who? If it's so widely reported, post the evidence. Where are your facts? I notice you keep tap dancing around that. I've been right about most everything. And when I was wrong about the CBA, I said so. Your free reign here is over. Your going to have to back up your nonsense.
Where are my facts? The numerous commentaries provided by Coates and company last year about how the Flyers ran their bench. CSN reports...following the team.

I'm not tap dancing around anything...you'll note your the only one in this thread who thinks I'm making this up. And me and CannonGoBoom definitely don't see eye-to-eye on everything.

And until you back up a single thing you say, shut the hell up with demanding it from others. Honestly, the hypocrisy of it just makes you look like an ass.

You think Stevens was running the forwards...prove it. I don't doubt he sends a group out every once in a while, or says who goes out in a key situation. But that's not running the line changes.

And there's no reign. It's a friggin message board dude...on the internet.

Quote:
So the Head Coach of a Hockey team, doesn't deserve credit for a team's success on the PP and the PK. How stupid! And where did you pull this 95% from? Out your a$$, obviously.
Not if he's not the one coaching it up...which is the case here. He deserves credit for putting coaches who are good at coaching that up in a position to do so. For example, when Mike Richards gave specific credit to Terry Murray last year for the PK...not Stevens.

Doesn't make Stevens a bad head coach in the slightest. It's the reason Stevens wasn't criticized for the PP a couple years back and Berube was. It's the reason Mullen was brought in, but Stevens remained. When you delegate authority, you know who is and is not responsibility for the individual elements. It's an articulated structure.

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12-17-2008, 08:33 PM
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My next response be the responses from a number of analysts of the Flyers, and their answer to who changes the Flyers Forwards lines during games. Have a good night.

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12-17-2008, 08:34 PM
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Originally Posted by MountainHawk View Post
Carter ... it's not worth it. Jester is either Mrs. Clarke or Mrs. Hitchcock, and therefore will never admit that Stevens is actually a worthwhile coach.

Even if the Flyers win 16 straight games in the playoffs, Stevens will still be an idiot because he doesn't want to play boring, shut everything down hockey.
But Mark Howe's number isn't retired.



Cem on MountainHawk, you're better than this. I'm actually giving Stevens credit here.

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12-17-2008, 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Where are my facts? The numerous commentaries provided by Coates and company last year about how the Flyers ran their bench. CSN reports...following the team.
I watch every Flyers game. Your getting desperate.

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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
I'm not tap dancing around anything...you'll note your the only one in this thread who thinks I'm making this up. And me and CannonGoBoom definitely don't see eye-to-eye on everything.
There's no one else responding but you and I. LOL

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And until you back up a single thing you say, shut the hell up with demanding it from others. Honestly, the hypocrisy of it just makes you look like an ass.
I will be backing it up. And I'll expect your apology, and your admittance to how wrong you are, And how little you actually know.

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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
You think Stevens was running the forwards...prove it. I don't doubt he sends a group out every once in a while, or says who goes out in a key situation. But that's not running the line changes.
My next post on this subject will be the proof.



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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Not if he's not the one coaching it up...which is the case here. He deserves credit for putting coaches who are good at coaching that up in a position to do so. For example, when Mike Richards gave specific credit to Terry Murray last year for the PK...not Stevens.

Doesn't make Stevens a bad head coach in the slightest. It's the reason Stevens wasn't criticized for the PP a couple years back and Berube was. It's the reason Mullen was brought in, but Stevens remained. When you delegate authority, you know who is and is not responsibility for the individual elements. It's an articulated structure.
You have no idea how an NHL team is run. The Head Coach is responsible for every aspect on the ice. And has his hand in every aspect on the ice. And who a player gives credit too, has nothing to do with how a team is run.

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