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Old
07-21-2004, 02:52 PM
  #26
LondonFan
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I think the point is: Dont make Messier the scapegoat for a really crap-ass performance from lots of well paid stars last season.

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07-21-2004, 03:27 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Ranger Blue
Great, I have one question if the old man comes back AGAIN will we have to give him ANOTHER send off at the end of the season? It's over Mess, leave gracefully, PLEASE.
I'd be more than happy to do it AGAIN! And I have no problem with Messier coming back. He hasn't been the "problem" here and he's always worked well with just about anyone on his wing--especially young players.

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07-21-2004, 03:42 PM
  #28
Evgeny Oliker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge
Well as of right now he is.....

Though my guess is that if the season resumes in the new year it will be Labarbera while Blackburn gets the time in Hartford.
can you guys please forget about LABARBERA??? he will NEVER EVER EVER be a starter! END OF STORY!
here's his TSN profile by the way, where it clearly states he's a BACKUP...even without that profile, he doesnt have the talent to be a STARTER:
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/teams/player_b...91&hubName=NYR

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07-21-2004, 03:52 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by 2forsbergaura1
can you guys please forget about LABARBERA??? he will NEVER EVER EVER be a starter! END OF STORY!
here's his TSN profile by the way, where it clearly states he's a BACKUP...even without that profile, he doesnt have the talent to be a STARTER:
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/teams/player_b...91&hubName=NYR
I think you mistunderstood--Edge meant that LaBarbera would be the backup behind Dunham in New York. And while I don't think that LaBarbera will get much better than he is now, I do think he's earned the right to prove me wrong. Backup goalies are always available and come cheap. There is no reason NOT to reward LaBarbera at this point and give him a chance to earn an NHL job. If doesn't work out, there's always someone else available.

Salvation lies within.

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07-21-2004, 03:58 PM
  #30
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Agreed Brook...

there's likely going to be a competent goalie available at the waiver draft.

This is a funny statement...

'Messier'... doesnt stick up for teammates on the ice and I'm betting doesnt talk much to any of the young players'

Yeah, and he didn't want to play with Lundmark, Ortmeyer, Balej, among the many other youngsters with whom he played the last three seasons. He pushed and shoved when need too, but if you're looking for a 43 year old to protect the youth, then the Rangers have an even bigger problem than Messier.

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07-21-2004, 04:07 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2forsbergaura1
can you guys please forget about LABARBERA??? he will NEVER EVER EVER be a starter! END OF STORY!
here's his TSN profile by the way, where it clearly states he's a BACKUP...even without that profile, he doesnt have the talent to be a STARTER:
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/teams/player_b...91&hubName=NYR
Ah, the TSN profile...the be all end all in terms of judging a player's talent.

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Old
07-21-2004, 07:53 PM
  #32
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Two reasons I don't want Messier back
1) I don't want anyone on the team that isn't above getting benched. We're bringing in high energy kids who are going to be pesky to play against. If someone takes a shift off they need to be benched. That won't happen to Mess. At least, I don't see it.

2)Mess has bad habits you don't want the new guys learning. For as many great things he can show them, there's plenty bad habits you don't want them picking up. Example, Mess conserves energy and cuts corners. Such as the lift on the opponents elbows w/ the stick on forechecks and backchecks rather than using your wheels to chase down an opponent to front and possibly create a turnover.
I hate when he lifts the elbows. It teaches the young guys its ok to use the stick. This will lead to stupid penalties as well.

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07-21-2004, 08:04 PM
  #33
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I think Laberbera is at least worthy of a look as backup. I think he could be a fill in for now as a backup goalie so that Blackburn can get the AHL starts.

As Brook said, I don't think he's gonna get much better but this team isn't exactly challanging for a cup next season.

As for Messier, I don't get who exactly people think he is going to block. The prospects who are likely an NHL players in this organization are either on the wings, on defense or in goal. At this point, if Lundmark can't outplay a 43 year old than you can just about write him off.

Having said that I think people are forgetting that Messier has to conserve his strength and play longer than expected because the players who were SUPPOSED to get that time failed miserably.

Does anyone honestly believe if Lindros, Nedved, Kovalev, Carter and others played to even 90% of their abilities we'd be having this conversation about Mess' icetime.

Face it guys, the one's who failed are the one's who are now gone. Messier is a decent player still, but he's not great. He shoudln't be a top line center anymore, so what does it say that this team was in bad enough of shape to have to make him one?

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07-22-2004, 01:44 AM
  #34
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And we will not find a prospect worthy of being an NHL center as long as Mess is one of the Four centers. I have an idea. How about we play prospect centers like Betts, Giroux, Immonen, or D. Moore in Messier's place. If they don't turn out to be keepers, deal them and get something back. Messier is 43? Wow that's old. I think the NHL has been good to him, it's time to hit the linx. Finally, one question. Would a team in the NHL sign Messier to a one year deal or more today? The must be a reason the answer is no.
Edge, I agree w/ your opinion that Labarbera should be on the roster. Mainly, for the same reasons I stated above. He's been more than solid in the AHL. Bring him up. If he's not an NHL goalie, which many believe he is not, (but thats why you must play the game), then deal him.

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07-22-2004, 03:38 AM
  #35
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Quote:
And we will not find a prospect worthy of being an NHL center as long as Mess is one of the Four centers.
So based on that assumption, Messier is not only responsible for the lack of guys stepping up but would thus be responsible for every center in the organization right down to juniors?

If this team had some blue chip centers pounding on the door, i am all for that. Heck if Messier was a goalie or a defenseman i could agree with that. But this team really doesn't have much in the way of Bluechip, must use center prospect centers. That's a very big factor that {though grim} HAS to be considered.



Quote:
I have an idea. How about we play prospect centers like Betts, Giroux, Immonen, or D. Moore in Messier's place. If they don't turn out to be keepers, deal them and get something back.
You're right, I mean there will be teams lining up to give us prime returns on all those players who don't pan. We could even try to do things EHM style and package six of em to Minnesota for a third round draft pick. But all kidding aside it's not that easy. It especially won't be that easy if a new labor agreement is put into place. Dead weight is going to be a lot harder to move.

Giroux is a better winger, Immonen is over in Europe because he has a contract, Betts is a possible fourth line candidate if he can ever stay healthy and Moore has to step it up at the AHL level before I'm gonna throw 20 minutes at him at the NHL level.

Don't get me wrong, I love prospects as much as anyone but "handing" them a spot without any work or credit is going to be more harmful than good in the longrun to this franchise. Now i am not for doing what we've done in the past, but as we've run through that list of names we realize what I said about this team not exactly having any centers knocking on the door at the moment.

Quote:
Messier is 43? Wow that's old. I think the NHL has been good to him, it's time to hit the linx. Finally, one question. Would a team in the NHL sign Messier to a one year deal or more today? The must be a reason the answer is no.
I think a few teams in this league would sign him. But they would also sign him with the ability to use him properly. No one is going to sign him to be their second line center.

The fact that this team had to force Holik and Messier into their first and second line center spots is embarassing and speaks volumes about this team.

For the same reason a team wouldn't sign Holik to be a first line center, a team wouldn't sign Messier to be their second line center.

But here's a list of people who scored fewer goals than Messier last year, for all the talk of age and Messier being the plague upon the house that Tex built.

Bertuzzi, Friesen, York, Fata, Selanne, Weight and others.

Also for all the talk about him eating minutes he averaged around 16:30. That was brought up a lot during stretches where Nedved couldnt hit a barn with a shot and Lindros was humpty-dumptying his happy self around getting his injuries mended.

No can say Messier is a star anymore or that he is his former self, but the guy finished with 18 goals, 43 points and a plus three rating. The guy can still play and i think could have been even better if the "core" players around him had done their jobs.

Quote:
Edge, I agree w/ your opinion that Labarbera should be on the roster. Mainly, for the same reasons I stated above. He's been more than solid in the AHL. Bring him up. If he's not an NHL goalie, which many believe he is not, (but thats why you must play the game), then deal him.
But see their is someone who for all arguments as to their potential at least EARNED the chance to get the look. Now if he won 5 games and had a gaa. of 4.10 than NO i dont think he's earned a look.

My problem isn't with younger players who are ready to get a look, my problem is that we simply dont have any at center that have shown me that rosters spots should be cleared for them.

Making these kids EARN their spot more than anything else will determine their success at the NHL level.

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Old
07-22-2004, 07:01 PM
  #36
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No worries, I just think its time. How would it look if he returned after his little, take a bow for the great Messier night. What was that? are you done or not Mess? If he returns that night would just be the a bad endzone dance x100. At least an endzone dance is relatively short. I route for the jersey. It can't be all about him (not that Mess is selfish..far from it), and there can't be an open invite to play center for us as long as he's alive. Yeah we may struggle w/o him but it's all about chemistry and we need take the steps to find it. I thought Mess played 3rd line C w/ Simon and Barnaby most of the year. Hence the 16 min per game average. Maybe Garth can fill that spot or sign someone who might fit in. Look, he's a nice player to keep in our pocket at this point but I hope its an open competition in camp for the center spots. If he wins great, but he's got to be evaluated w/o a name on his jersey. We'll see I guess, peace.

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Old
07-22-2004, 07:53 PM
  #37
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I think if Messier didn't do what he did last season i could push him out easier, but 18 goals and 43 points on this team in the current NHL and at 43 is just dang impressive.

I think there will be an open call for Centers but the problem is that we just don't have a ton that aren't going to be NHL level guys {or those who are aren't here yet}.

Personally I could care less about his send off. At the time no one knew what the future would hold. Now if Mess pulled a Clemens, said he retired and then came back I'd have a problem with that. But then again that is Clemens, who has notriously been a miserable ******* to be around.

If he retires i wish him well, but I also saw more out of him {flaws included} then i did from kids almost half his age who need to step it up.

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07-22-2004, 08:06 PM
  #38
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Well I have to admit you've turned me from dead set against him coming back to being on the fence. Question, would he accept being a "black ace". If a young guy takes the night off, suit up Mess in his place the next game to send a message. Would this motivate a young kid or discourage. It would piss me off as a player and force me to play at a high level next chance I get.
His gp was pretty high last year. I think he's found a comfortable style of play that will put him in position to make plays w/o having to get too physical and risk injury.

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Old
07-22-2004, 08:13 PM
  #39
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I think the final stretch last year is a perfect example of what would happen this year.

Frankly this isnt a team that is expecting to compete. At the stretch last season the problem wasn't giving the kids time {heck they even sat Messier at times}, the problem was that a guy like Lundmark didn't do a darn thing.

Realistically there are only two young centers who i think stand better than average odds of making the team. Both Murray and Lundmark are the only two reasonable choices to make the Roster and to be perfectly honest I think might be suited at LW and RW respectivly.

Moore is at this point unlikely to be anything special as a pro player and the other centers are overseas and in college or juniors.

I think a guy like Murray could be a future leader on this team, and having him room with Messier {like they did last year} is EXACTLY what this team needs to be doing. No one is expecting Messier to lead this to the promised land anymore, but you can darn well bet he knows how to teach these kids what not to do with the media, how to handle NYC and how to rally each other.

I'm sorry but you just ain't gonna get that from Holik. The only thing he motivated last year was Chris Simon who wanted to deck him at several points.

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Old
07-23-2004, 10:23 AM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge
No one is expecting Messier to lead this to the promised land anymore, but you can darn well bet he knows how to teach these kids what not to do with the media, how to handle NYC and how to rally each other.
I think this is a key here Edge that most fans don't realize. This is why a guy like Mess is valuable. This is why guys like Leetch , Richter, and Graves became the people/players they are today. I wasn't thrilled at having Mess around the last few years, but if we have kids on the team who need his guidance than i'm all for him coming back.

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Old
07-23-2004, 06:07 PM
  #41
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I am debating the point on two different threads. it's a little draining.

i think most people forget those intangibles with NYC. I've been all over the planet and there is no city that takes more getting used to than NYC.

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