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Flames drop to 28th in HF rankings

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Old
12-17-2008, 04:02 PM
  #51
Badger Bob
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Originally Posted by flamesfan12 View Post
What about non drafted players? Giordano, Regehr Jr, Palin, Wilson. Sutter get any credit for that?
They may have lucked into Giordano. Remember, he was signed as FA when the Lowell AHL franchise was shared with Carolina during the lockout. The Flames had a responsibility for filling out their share of the roster, and there really wasn't that much competition for spots. At the time, the hopes for Giordano were probably no higher than Darrell Scoville-upside, if that. Everything since has been gravy. As for the other names on that short list, meh.

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12-17-2008, 04:12 PM
  #52
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I find this stuff hard to predict...who knows what could happen from the time a prospect is on the farm to when he makes it into the NHL. Alot of it is luck, coaching and fit between a club and player.

Alls I know is that since Sutter has come, Calgary have made improvements and since the lockout have made the playoffs every year. That in itself is a pretty good accomplishment considering how bad we were prior.

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12-17-2008, 04:13 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by puck_08 View Post
Do you know how many players in the 3rd round even make the NHL???
I can answer that.

Of the 459 players drafted in the third round from 1979 (the first "modern" draft) through 1998 (a cut-off point as anything more recent is too early to tell), 290 make it to the NHL (63.2%) for an average of 288.6 GP.

69 of the 459 play in 500+ games (15.0%)

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12-17-2008, 04:39 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by serratedmuffin View Post
Bam09 has a point. Sutter isn't a great drafter. He drafts too many tough guys and not enough skill guys. As someone who runs the draft, he leaves something to be desired. He makes up for it in trades, FA signings, and all sorts of other ways. Whether we need better scouts, or someone else to make our picks who knows. All I know is that the flames were awful for years, and now are back to respectability because of sutter. He's taken us from crap to respectable. Do we need a new GM to take us from respectable to elite? I dunno, how many teams can really make that jump? The next person we hire could be the next Don Waddell, or Button.
the reason Sutter drafted so many tough guys was to build a base and a foundation for the prospect pool. What many don't seem to realize is Sutter likes to pick low risk players, they just happen to be in the form of tougher players... when drafting skill players there is always much more risk involved and when an organization is lacking in depth those are risks that aren't always worth taking

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12-17-2008, 05:02 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Lunatik View Post
the reason Sutter drafted so many tough guys was to build a base and a foundation for the prospect pool. What many don't seem to realize is Sutter likes to pick low risk players, they just happen to be in the form of tougher players... when drafting skill players there is always much more risk involved and when an organization is lacking in depth those are risks that aren't always worth taking
Already mentioned that on page 2. He's built a stronger farm system on low risk. I'd like him to take more risks in some of his drafting. Aaron Marvin was one and I'm glad he did. I feel you have to take those occasionally to try and catch lightning in a bottle. Although I'm kinda sick of him drafting all the same type of players, it seems to be paying off. As long as the flames keep winning I guess I can't really complain?

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12-17-2008, 05:03 PM
  #56
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Sutter drafts a specific type of player that fits into the mold of Flames hockey. He puts more emphasis on toughness, character and defensive awareness. HF rating is all about offensive output and star power.

Sutter will never draft in a way that would meet with the approval of these HF raters. Just have to get used to them underrating the team...it is a given it will continue.

I do agree though that they should at least get their facts straight when they trash a team.

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12-17-2008, 06:51 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by puck_08 View Post
LOL at the thought of "wasting" a 3rd round pick on an NHL agitator.

Do you know how many players in the 3rd round even make the NHL???

OMG! not all the players we drafted made the NHL! Sutter Sucks! I can't believe we didn't draft a 50 goal scorer with every pick!
Don't put words in my mouth. What I said was that it was ultimately a waste of a pick. You can find a fighter anywhere(which is what Prust's role will be) and we took one in a round where people still can get a scorer and they go for them here. Look at Boyd(only good pick of that draft)

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12-17-2008, 06:54 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by abracanada View Post
Sutter drafts a specific type of player that fits into the mold of Flames hockey. He puts more emphasis on toughness, character and defensive awareness. HF rating is all about offensive output and star power.

Sutter will never draft in a way that would meet with the approval of these HF raters. Just have to get used to them underrating the team...it is a given it will continue.

I do agree though that they should at least get their facts straight when they trash a team.
If you want toughness character and defensive awareness you can get proven guys for less than a first round pick. We can get proven NHLers for our first if you want to waste a first on anyone that doesn't do much offensively or defensively when it comes to a defenseman. HF are smart enough to know you don't draft fighters early, you can grab them anywhere the transition is almost seemless for fighters. They got on the ice, and pick there fights or try to get the puck in the offensive zone and hold it. It's the high draft picks, that should be top 6. Not bottom 6.

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12-17-2008, 06:58 PM
  #59
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[QUOTE=JiriHrdina;16855097]
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Originally Posted by serratedmuffin View Post
Bam09 has a point. Sutter isn't a great drafter. He drafts too many tough guys and not enough skill guys. /QUOTE]

Simply not true. Sutter drafts a balance.

Just look at our blueline, you have a number of big nasty stay at home guys: Pelech/Baldwin/BIG Keith Aulie

Then you have the skilled puck movers: TJ Brodie, John Negrin, Per Jonsson.

Balance.

Up front he's drafted checker/guys with grit: Bouma, Grantham, Prust, etc
But he's drafted skill guys: Backlund, Nemisz, Wahl, Ryder, Boyd and longer shots like Aaron Marvin

This notion that Sutter doesn't like skill is such a farce and has now actual basis in fact.
Let's see how many make an impact in the NHL. With this great balanced drafter in Sutter surely we have a great prospect pool. We have a grand total of ONE blue chip prospect, a couple ok-good ones, and then long shots for the most part. If your looking for 5th and 6th defensemen or bottom 6 guys, we may as well just trade all of our early picks because it seems like that's what most of you want.

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12-17-2008, 07:00 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Northern Neighbour View Post
The rankings are based on how organizations fare against one another. They're not an indication of whether some players will turn out or not.

The majority of us agree that the team has only one bluechip prospect in the system and that's Backlund. A lot of the team's other prospects will likely be role / complementary players but not necessarily elite or franchise-type players. There's some depth in the system but I wouldn't consider many of them to be considered top prospects or surefire NHLers.

Then when you look at other teams, the Flames don't have the depth of prospects with high potential like Chicago, St. Louis, Phoenix, etc. So while the Flames may have Backlund, they don't have a Tikhonov, Turris, Boedker, Lisin, etc. all within the system.
But we do have Kris Chucko and Matt Pelech, so I mean we HAVE to be higher these ratings are a joke

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12-17-2008, 07:31 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by bam09 View Post
If you want toughness character and defensive awareness you can get proven guys for less than a first round pick. We can get proven NHLers for our first if you want to waste a first on anyone that doesn't do much offensively or defensively when it comes to a defenseman. HF are smart enough to know you don't draft fighters early, you can grab them anywhere the transition is almost seemless for fighters. They got on the ice, and pick there fights or try to get the puck in the offensive zone and hold it. It's the high draft picks, that should be top 6. Not bottom 6.
Are you implying that Nemisz is no more than a fighter?

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12-17-2008, 07:55 PM
  #62
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^^^

No I am not. I am making a generalization of what these guys seem to think we/Sutter want. Even though Nemisz still doesn't have a high ceiling...

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12-17-2008, 08:16 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by bam09 View Post
^^^

No I am not. I am making a generalization of what these guys seem to think we/Sutter want. Even though Nemisz still doesn't have a high ceiling...
You limit his potential at a pretty young age. Especially considering big guys tend to take longer.

Today, it may appear that he doesn't have all that much upside but then, there was a few years when it appeared Iginla didn't have the upside he has demonstrated either. If Dallas had known what they had, I have to wonder if they would have let him go. Could say the same thing for Bertuzzi too.

You just seem to have it in for Sutter because he doesn't look for instant results the way you like to see. I am sure you would have liked the Flames to draft someone like Schremp too. He seems to have managed to be pretty highly regarded in these parts.

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12-17-2008, 08:31 PM
  #64
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I don't really have it in for Schremp. He is very talented but I believe he had work ethic problems or something to that effect. He is far more talented than anyone in our system save Backlund.

The Stars knew what they were trading in Iginla(well they knew he had great upside). They got Nieuwendyk(sp) in return and he helped them win the cup earning the Conn Smythe. So it wasn't like the Avalanche trade with Regehr as the future considerations.

I have it in for Sutter, because he won't get very far with this prospect pool. I think because most of you got so used to crap and mediocrity for the most part with Button, Sutter looks great and has given us everything(which I give him credit for in terms of our level of respectability) but he isn't a good drafter by any stretch and won't take us to the next level.

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12-17-2008, 08:35 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by bam09 View Post
I don't really have it in for Schremp. He is very talented but I believe he had work ethic problems or something to that effect. He is far more talented than anyone in our system save Backlund.

The Stars knew what they were trading in Iginla(well they knew he had great upside). They got Nieuwendyk(sp) in return and he helped them win the cup earning the Conn Smythe. So it wasn't like the Avalanche trade with Regehr as the future considerations.

I have it in for Sutter, because he won't get very far with this prospect pool. I think because most of you got so used to crap and mediocrity for the most part with Button, Sutter looks great and has given us everything(which I give him credit for in terms of our level of respectability) but he isn't a good drafter by any stretch and won't take us to the next level.
Alright, in your opinion, Sutter make us better than crap from Button. Now who do you want to take us to the next level. Who is available that we could realistically grab that could?

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12-17-2008, 09:06 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by serratedmuffin View Post
Alright, in your opinion, Sutter make us better than crap from Button. Now who do you want to take us to the next level. Who is available that we could realistically grab that could?
Yeah, if things keep going the way they are, we may "luck" into a real gem like Lowe. The Oil may eventually bring that failed experiment to a close.

Then, just imagine, we could have a roster filled with "Edmonton type prospects".

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12-17-2008, 10:12 PM
  #67
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Bickering! I would never do that.

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12-17-2008, 10:36 PM
  #68
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Prust is more of a agitator then strictly a fighter as he draws penaltys and gets under people's skin.

The former has more value to a team imo.

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12-17-2008, 10:44 PM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bam09 View Post
I don't really have it in for Schremp. He is very talented but I believe he had work ethic problems or something to that effect. He is far more talented than anyone in our system save Backlund.

Skilled yeah no doubt about that. However Schremp still has some obvious holes in his game that prevent him from being an NHL player. Hockey is more then just skill and you can't be drafting just the sexy picks like Schremp. Whether you like it or not teams need to develop and draft NHL players who can play on the team whether it is on the first line or the 4th line.

Out of curiousity how many of the flames prospects have you seen in action? Seem to be writing them off pretty easily and not giving them much of a chance.

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12-17-2008, 10:47 PM
  #70
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[QUOTE=bam09;16858424]
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Originally Posted by JiriHrdina View Post

Let's see how many make an impact in the NHL. With this great balanced drafter in Sutter surely we have a great prospect pool. We have a grand total of ONE blue chip prospect, a couple ok-good ones, and then long shots for the most part. If your looking for 5th and 6th defensemen or bottom 6 guys, we may as well just trade all of our early picks because it seems like that's what most of you want.
Sure let's see. Frankly I have a lot of confidence that some will have an impact - and I have you know...watched them and stuff.

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12-17-2008, 10:54 PM
  #71
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They may have lucked into Giordano. Remember, he was signed as FA when the Lowell AHL franchise was shared with Carolina during the lockout. The Flames had a responsibility for filling out their share of the roster, and there really wasn't that much competition for spots. At the time, the hopes for Giordano were probably no higher than Darrell Scoville-upside, if that. Everything since has been gravy. As for the other names on that short list, meh.
Is it any less lucky than picking a guy like Franzen or Zetterberg in the 7th round?

Fact of the matter is that picking players requires significant amounts of luck. You shouldn't hold that against the organization for bringing up a top 4 d-man. They saw something in him and offered him a contract. GOOD!

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12-17-2008, 10:56 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by bam09 View Post
Don't put words in my mouth. What I said was that it was ultimately a waste of a pick. You can find a fighter anywhere(which is what Prust's role will be) and we took one in a round where people still can get a scorer and they go for them here. Look at Boyd(only good pick of that draft)
You're such a joke it's not even funny.

Have you watched the last 5 - 10 games? Clearly not. Because Pardy is looking like a fantastic pick.

Oh wait, you have problems evaluating any type of player that doesn't score 80+ points in a season.

Just when you think someone couldn't come across as MORE stupid... they prove you wrong.

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12-18-2008, 12:23 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Ronald Pagan View Post
Is it any less lucky than picking a guy like Franzen or Zetterberg in the 7th round?

Fact of the matter is that picking players requires significant amounts of luck. You shouldn't hold that against the organization for bringing up a top 4 d-man. They saw something in him and offered him a contract. GOOD!
Bang on. For the amount of credit the Wings get for picking guys like Zetterberg late - if they knew they were going to be THAT good why on earth did they wait so long to pick them?

Credit is due, but luck is a big factor here.

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12-18-2008, 12:36 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by JiriHrdina View Post
Bang on. For the amount of credit the Wings get for picking guys like Zetterberg late - if they knew they were going to be THAT good why on earth did they wait so long to pick them?

Credit is due, but luck is a big factor here.
Luck is critical in many aspects of life... and I am mighty impressed with out depth at D in the prospect pool. Gio has really developed well this year and PArdy coming in has really started playing well and it will be tough to send him down when Vandermeer is healthy...

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12-18-2008, 07:30 AM
  #75
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Originally Posted by bam09 View Post
Don't put words in my mouth. What I said was that it was ultimately a waste of a pick. You can find a fighter anywhere(which is what Prust's role will be) and we took one in a round where people still can get a scorer and they go for them here. Look at Boyd(only good pick of that draft)
Here's the '04 draft:
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/nhl2004e.html

Except for Dubinsky, there aren't any household names, even from the 2nd round. Ditto for most of the 3rd. So, then, whom should the Flames have drafted? Not really sure what your little rant is about here. What's wrong with selecting a pest in the 3rd?

Now, if you'd like to discuss all that grabbing the jersey junior hockey-level crap during fights, you'd have a perfectly valid point.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Pagan View Post
You shouldn't hold that against the organization for bringing up a top 4 d-man.
Where did it say I held something against the organization? Typical of you to to stalk a thread to try and provoke.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JiriHrdina View Post
For the amount of credit the Wings get for picking guys like Zetterberg late - if they knew they were going to be THAT good why on earth did they wait so long to pick them?
Late round gems happen to be more of a rare occurance. When's the last time it's happened to the Flames? Moss, maybe, but for star potential, we have to go back to the late 80's with Hull and Fleury. Before anybody intervenes, it's nothing against the Flames. This just isn't very common anymore.

Development also plays a big part and offering a player the right opportunity to thrive in that team's system.


Last edited by Badger Bob: 12-18-2008 at 09:05 AM.
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