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Old
12-19-2008, 12:08 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Jarkko Immonen View Post
Yeah, I know of all the players that got their shot and stuck with the Rangers. I've seen them all develop. I'm kinda pointing to a certain type of player. I guess I'm just still irked over Immonen getting the door shut on him.
I'm still irked about Immonen, too.

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12-19-2008, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Duponttime View Post
If I thought you had one ounce of hockey knowledge I'd probably respond more. I really don't put much into what 90% of Rangers fans say on prospects. All they have done from day one is bash Dawes because they don't have A CLUE that it tends to take most forwards 3 to 4 years to figure out how to produce offensively at the NHL level if they actually attempt to play defense.
My main disappointment with Dawes is that I expected him to continue to produce at the pace he did last season, which was .5 points per game (very realistic if you ask me). However, he clearly took a step back since then. You can't blame his linemates either, because he's playing with essentially the same players he played with last year.

Hopefully he heats up and makes up for some of the lack of effort we've seen from him thus far.

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12-19-2008, 12:10 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Duponttime View Post
Watching this board for a while, all you usually see is users whining about how our prospects stink and aren't high end talents. Yet after all of that, in just the past few years we have an elite young goalie, two high end young defenseman and probably a high end center. We also have some high end role player types in Callahan and Korpikoski not to mention traded for one using our farm in Sjostrom. People tend to forget that a hockey team has 4 LINES. Your goal is to build elite 3rd and 4th lines also. I think this team is well on there way to doing that. You can always sign UFA's for your top 2 lines. In fact, they already did that.
And how well has that worked out?

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12-19-2008, 12:26 PM
  #54
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are any other teams in a better position??? I mean im sure some teams have more top tier prospects. But to me in most sports, You have a couple of top tier talent you hope can become something and then the rest is generally filler.

With that said who knows how some later round guys pan out. Look at Hank, he was drafted in what the 7th, im sure he wasnt considered a top tier prospect. Datsyuk and Zetterberg are the same way. Some guys its to early to tell.

Hell Girardi wasnt even drafted.

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12-19-2008, 03:01 PM
  #55
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Prospect wise Hartford is not as strong this year as in the previously couple seasons.

The best forward Anisimov is still very young and almost a point a game player. I think his upside is really top 6. After that it's a dropoff. Byers got hurt--but his upside is bottom 6 forward as is Dupont who got off to a nice start but then tailed off. Moore was up last year. It's not that he's a bad player but he wasn't very noticeable. Soryal seems interesting--may have a future as a 4th line goon with some skills but is going to have to improve his skating. It seems at this point it may have been better to send Weise back to the WHL as he's produced almost nothing the last two months. Pyatt's having a better year but he's not close yet. So 1 really good prospect--2 maybe 3 other bottom line players.

Sanguinetti seems to still have defensive issues to work out. Both Potter and Fahey made real runs for an NHL job. Fahey's hurt again but Potter seems to have a realistic NHL future. Sauer almost seems to be doing pretty well after a serious injury. I think he also has a very good chance. At least 2 maybe 3 of these should be NHL'ers.

Wiikman and Zaba don't have much experience. They're hopes of making it right now rest on either Lundqvist or Valiquette getting hurt. More likely with that kind of scenario the Rangers would try to make a deal.

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12-19-2008, 03:29 PM
  #56
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I somewhat agree. It's not terrible, but you cant expect us to have as great a farm system as 2 or 3 years ago with the recent influx of youth from hartford, can you?

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Old
12-19-2008, 04:14 PM
  #57
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I was disappointed a little in Dawes this season but he's coming on. Patience. It sometimes takes 3-4 for years for some players to find their offense. Dawes is a small guy. He overcame that his entire minor career. It takes a little more when you get to the NHL level. Look at St. Louis, Briere and Gionta. None of these guys lit it up right away. Everybody expects instant results. It doesn't work like that unless it's a franchise player. Even some of those take a while.

I always believed it would take Korpikoski 3 years of NHL experience to develop his offensive game.

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12-19-2008, 06:53 PM
  #58
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I think our scouting staff must pick it up a notch.

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12-19-2008, 07:11 PM
  #59
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Maybe this Weise kid can be a real sleeper for us?? It'd def. be nice.

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Old
12-19-2008, 10:42 PM
  #60
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Our prospects suck

I was just looking at the HF rankings and I must say, we really do belong in the bottom half a dozen.

Defense is ok with Sang, DZ and lesser prospects, such as Sauer who's awfully overrated on this board.

Up front, we got nothing. Anisimov is nothing special. Third liner with a second line potential, kinda like Korps. Maybe they'll play on our third line together in a few years, if we are lucky. Or together on our second line if we suck.

Zaborsky is our #6? Wow. He's in the ECHL and not even putting up impressive numbers there. He literally has no trade value.

Grachev is in the top 5. I know a lot of people are giddy about him, but come on, there's a reason he just fell to the third round. Draft position isn't that important after a few years, but it is after less than half a season. If the Rangers tried to trade him, they'd get... a third round pick.

Byers is #7. He's projected as a 4th line player. Come on, boys and girls. Really? He's our next Betts - a perfect 4th liner, but a 4th liner nonetheless.

All those other guys like Hagelin, Hillier and Weise are worthless trade-wise. I am not looking to trade them, but the fact that nobody would give us anything for them is a sign that they are... worthless.

So besides Sang and DZ (probably just 1 of them since they are both high-risk, high-return), we really have nobody who would be in the top-6 or the top 2 pairs. Maybe Anisimov will get there. Maybe not. At most, it's 3 new guys in the next few years. Maybe just 1.

And let's remember that we don't have any young top-6 wings either in the Garden or among the prospects. [RIP Cherry]

People talk about all the players we've brought up. Fine. We are good at center (in large part because Gomez will stick around for a while or else we'd have Dubi on the first line, Anisimov on second and Betts on third). We are good in the net. We will probably be good on defense. But what's up on the wing? What happens when Naslund is gone? We are already weak on the top 2 lines among wings.

This team will have to rely heavily on free agency in the coming years.


Last edited by Beacon: 12-19-2008 at 10:51 PM.
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Old
12-19-2008, 10:45 PM
  #61
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I agree with you. Although I'm high on Grachev, I don't see Anisimov being any more than a second line center when it's all said and done, people on this board do tend to overrate our prospects.

This falls on Slats. When we started this "re-build" of ours, we were on the right track, but we fell off of it with the Gomez Drury signings.

That's my opinion.

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12-19-2008, 10:45 PM
  #62
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The reason Grachev fell to the 3rd round was that he was Russian.

Nothing more. You clearly have never seen the kid play.

And Anisimov has a high end of a 2nd liner?

Again. You've clearly never seen the kid play.

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Old
12-19-2008, 10:49 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
The reason Grachev fell to the 3rd round was that he was Russian.

Yes, him and Ovechkin both fell to the third round. Russians never get drafted early. Maybe after the Berlin wall falls, they'll get drafted early. I heard there's this kid named Yashin who might get drafted first overall a few years from now in 1993. Oh wait, that already happened. So wait... it's not 1986 anymore?

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12-19-2008, 10:50 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by BrooklynHockey99 View Post
Yes, him and Ovechkin both fell to the third round. Russians never get drafted early. Maybe after the Berlin wall falls, they'll get drafted early. I heard there's this kid named Yashin who might get drafted first overall a few years from now in 1993. Oh wait, that already happened. So wait... it's not 1986 anymore?
Oh god, I came in to this thread ready to support you, but after this post...no more

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12-19-2008, 10:54 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by NYRangers3018 View Post
Oh god, I came in to this thread ready to support you, but after this post...no more
I was just being sarcastic. The idea that a star prospect would fall to the third round because he's Russian is nothing more than victimology.

A second rounder can fall to the third round. But a blue chipper won't. Russian or Chinese or anything else.

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12-19-2008, 10:55 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrooklynHockey99 View Post
Yes, him and Ovechkin both fell to the third round. Russians never get drafted early. Maybe after the Berlin wall falls, they'll get drafted early. I heard there's this kid named Yashin who might get drafted first overall a few years from now in 1993. Oh wait, that already happened. So wait... it's not 1986 anymore?
There goes all your credibility right out the window with a single post.

The kid fell in the draft over fears he wouldn't come over. He was ranked in the top 20 by a few organizations and no one felt he'd last past the 35th pick or so of the draft.

But teams are scared ****less of drafting Russians at this point -- regardless if they make the claim that they will come over. Look at the hassle that Filatov was. All the drama with his team filing suit and everything.

Grachev was a great pick and was there based off of fear from other teams in regards to Russians. Why do you think Petrov fell so far to the Islanders?

Sorry to have to completely destroy your point, but it needed it.

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12-19-2008, 10:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrooklynHockey99 View Post
I was just being sarcastic. The idea that a star prospect would fall to the third round because he's Russian is nothing more than victimology.

A second rounder can fall to the third round. But a blue chipper won't. Russian or Chinese or anything else.
Then why did Cherry, a consensus top 3 pick, fall all the way to us at 17 (and likely would've fallen to the LATE LATE first if not out of the first) during his draft?

There is simply nothing to your point. It's bunk and if you knew anything about the draft you'd never have posted it.

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12-19-2008, 10:58 PM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
The reason Grachev fell to the 3rd round was that he was Russian.

Nothing more. You clearly have never seen the kid play.

And Anisimov has a high end of a 2nd liner?

Again. You've clearly never seen the kid play.

There were dozens of East Europeans drafted ahead of Grachev. Did no scout ever see him?

As non-Ranger fans if Anisimov's talent was more than a second liner. Your answer will likely be, "I don't care what they think". But the fact is that your opinion is blinded by the fact that he's our one and only.

Remember Tyutin being touted as a potential All-Star when he was the lone decent prospect we had? He turned into a good second-pairing defenseman, but nothing phenomenal. The reason he got pumped is that there were no others to pump. Same with Anisimov.

Every team in the league as a prospect as good as Anisimov or better. Every team.

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12-19-2008, 10:58 PM
  #69
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I'm on the fence with Grachev, I've seen him play several times live now and he's been really good some games and pretty invisible others.

Honestly I think he might end up like Oleg Kvasha, one of those guys who when he brings it, he makes you think wow this guy could really be a player. But other nights he doesn't even belong.

But he's a pretty good prospect, he's definitely far from a lock but he could certainly end up being a Top 6 forward in the NHL.

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Old
12-19-2008, 11:06 PM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
Then why did Cherry, a consensus top 3 pick, fall all the way to us at 17 (and likely would've fallen to the LATE LATE first if not out of the first) during his draft?

There is simply nothing to your point. It's bunk and if you knew anything about the draft you'd never have posted it.

Ok, take the blinders off and you'll stop engaging in victimology and personal attacks.

1. Cherry was never a consensus top 3 pick.

2. Draftees unexpectedly fall every year, Russians and others. No need to engage in victimology here every time you don't get your desired result. Should we attribute every draft to a different type of "hate" and "phobia" because every draft has a player who falls.

3. Do you know the difference between falling to #17 and falling to the middle of the third round?

How in the world can you compare that?

As I've said, a player can fall half a round from #5 to #20, or from the second to the third round.

But you will almost never see blue-chippers just fall out of the first round, and never out of the second round. There's something wrong with them. Maybe they have a lot of upside, but they are high risk (Marc Savard). Maybe they are small (Gretzky) or slow (Robitaille) or have a poor attitude. Something has to be there for a guy to fall to the third round.

A half a round drop can just happen because several GM's had their "favorites" on the board. But you won't drop from first round to third. No way.

And guess what, nobody ever projected Grachev as a top-10 blue-chipper draftee anyway. He's a second round pick who fell to the third. So what? Big deal. He may turn out great, but I am not pinning my hopes on someone like that.

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12-19-2008, 11:07 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by BrooklynHockey99 View Post
There were dozens of East Europeans drafted ahead of Grachev. Did no scout ever see him?
You have heard about the KHL, right? That's why people are wary about Russian players...either the players themselves perhaps wanting to play in a major league in their own country, or not wanting to stick around if they're not guaranteed a spot, or their teams refusing to let them leave to go to the NHL. That's why people are wary about drafting Russian players...

Quote:
As non-Ranger fans if Anisimov's talent was more than a second liner.
I agree he's probably a 2nd liner, unless he takes a big step forward. He's still pretty young though.

Quote:
Remember Tyutin being touted as a potential All-Star when he was the lone decent prospect we had? He turned into a good second-pairing defenseman, but nothing phenomenal. The reason he got pumped is that there were no others to pump. Same with Anisimov.
I'm not sure anyone pimped Tyutin as an all-star...maybe though. I think most people said he has a lot of skill and could be good, but should be solid at least.

Quote:
Every team in the league as a prospect as good as Anisimov or better. Every team.
Things would look a hell of a lot better if Cherepanov wasn't ****ing dead

edit: Honestly, a lot of teams have better forward prospects than the Rangers because they were drafting forwards in the first round. The Rangers spent several years drafting defensemen before taking Cherepanov, and then drafted a defenseman again when the plan was still to have Cherepanov be a major part of the organization.

After the first round it's kidn of a crapshoot and I wouldn't put a lot of prospects over the guys the Rangers have, just because they may have a little more name recognition or something.

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12-19-2008, 11:11 PM
  #72
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You're pretty negative.

It's a combined problem.

1) Bad drafting. Simply put. Last few years we've come up with a handful of good picks, and almost none in the first round (obviously most notable is Jessiman and the fact that he's the only player that never made it to the NHL as part of our organization from that draft.)

2) And the fact that we've never been bad enough to warrant getting a top 10 pick lately, which is usually where those top six forwards and top four defensemen that you're seeking are at. That's just the way it is. I hope we'll never be that bad so that we are forced to pick in the top five. Look at the Islanders right now. The Thrashers. The Lightning. Could you imagine being a fan of those teams? (No offense to them - but they'd have to admit it sucks).

Honestly, this board would blow up if we were that bad. NYR has too big of a fan base to deal with that ****. Therefore, we'll never be picking in the top ten probably, and thus won't have those big name prospects that would make us have a great farm system, which is obviously what you want.

The consensus: tough luck.

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12-19-2008, 11:13 PM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrooklynHockey99 View Post
There were dozens of East Europeans drafted ahead of Grachev. Did no scout ever see him?

As non-Ranger fans if Anisimov's talent was more than a second liner. Your answer will likely be, "I don't care what they think". But the fact is that your opinion is blinded by the fact that he's our one and only.

Remember Tyutin being touted as a potential All-Star when he was the lone decent prospect we had? He turned into a good second-pairing defenseman, but nothing phenomenal. The reason he got pumped is that there were no others to pump. Same with Anisimov.

Every team in the league as a prospect as good as Anisimov or better. Every team.
Yeah, so there were 5 RUSSIANS picked ahead of Grachev. And this debate has nothing to do with Eastern Europe, it has to do with Russia and the lack of a transfer agreement. Now, I agree that our prospect pool isn't very good, because we never finished rebuilding like we should have. But you hurt your own argument with this ridiculousness.

If we have anyone to look forward to, it is Grachev. He was a borderline 1st rounder if he wasn't Russian, and so was Kiril Petrov, who was picked 2 spots before him. Both of those guys could have been 1st round picks if they weren't Russian.

Cherepanov was a consensus top 5 pick that year, for sure. Maybe not top 3, but certainly top 5.

We definitely have a tremendous lack of high-end forward prospects, but that point can EASILY be made without making unfounded and flat-out incorrect statements about the ones we do have.

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12-19-2008, 11:13 PM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrooklynHockey99 View Post
There were dozens of East Europeans drafted ahead of Grachev. Did no scout ever see him?

As non-Ranger fans if Anisimov's talent was more than a second liner. Your answer will likely be, "I don't care what they think". But the fact is that your opinion is blinded by the fact that he's our one and only.

Remember Tyutin being touted as a potential All-Star when he was the lone decent prospect we had? He turned into a good second-pairing defenseman, but nothing phenomenal. The reason he got pumped is that there were no others to pump. Same with Anisimov.

Every team in the league as a prospect as good as Anisimov or better. Every team.
Not quite. There were 5 Eastern Europeans - all Russians - drafted ahead of Grachev. The fear with drafting Russian players is the lack of a transfer agreement, and, in light of the start-up of the KHL, whether the Russian players where even willing to commit to playing in North America.

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12-19-2008, 11:17 PM
  #75
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"You have heard about the KHL, right?"

Right. When you can't argue your point, you have to engage in personal attacks and hyperbole.

"That's why people are wary about Russian players"

But when you have blue chip talent, like Filatov, you go in the top 10. Even others like Tikhonov and Vojnov got drafted long, long our guy.

"...either the players themselves perhaps wanting to play in a major league in their own country, or not wanting to stick around if they're not guaranteed a spot, or their teams refusing to let them leave to go to the NHL. That's why people are wary about drafting Russian players..."

The answer is too vague and doesn't explain things. How much of a drop does the KHL cause? Is it a few picks? Is it 3 rounds?

To say, "KHL causes people to be wary of drafting Russians" is on par with saying, "sneakers cause people to run faster". Yeah, but by how much?

The fact is that top Russian talent still gets drafted relatively close to their position. A top-10 pick will go in the top-20. A first round pick will go in the second round. But Filatov wouldn't have slipped to the middle of the third round no matter what. He's an elite talent. Grachev isn't. Period.



"I agree he's probably a 2nd liner, unless he takes a big step forward. He's still pretty young though."

Anisimov is at most a second liner. He may get there or he may not, but you'll be awfully disappointed if you expect to see him on the first line of a Cup contender.



"I'm not sure anyone pimped Tyutin as an all-star"

Google it. Or look in archive.org.



"Things would look a hell of a lot better if Cherepanov wasn't ****ing dead"

Yes they would, but he is, what can we do? We have to deal with what we have, not what could've been.

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