What exactly has Bouwmeester done to make him a primadonna? And who is saying anything about giving up what was given up for Lindros?
Bouwmeester has done nothing the past couple of years but whine about Florida. There's plenty of talent there, so I can't say for certain why they aren't making the playoffs. But for a defenseman who wants to be paid in the higher tier, he's done nothing to reward that kind of salary. Has Florida made it to the playoffs since Bouwmeester has been there? Has he lead defensemen in scoring? How about +/-? How about he just shuts up and leads his team to the playoffs for once. That's what's prima donna about him. He whines and complains about things in Florida, but what has he exactly done to help things down there?
Honestly, the bounty it's going to take to acquire Bouwmeester just isn't worth it. Everyone seems to think he's going to come rather cheap, but he's a 25 year old defenseman who's going to be coming into his prime. If Florida is out of it by the trade deadline, you know Martin is going to demand a ridiculous package and he's going to get it. You're looking at a least one or two young roster players, a top prospect and multiple draft picks. And you know that someone will make that kind of deal. I'd rather we keep our own guys and develop accordingly.
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Originally Posted by Jester
Erm, ideally we sign him long-term after trading for him.
And who's to say that even after making a move like that, we have sufficient cap space to sign him? You and I and pretty much everyone knows he's going to look for a big deal and he's going to want more money than what Richards, Carter or Gagne make. He'll probably want more money than Timonen. No thanks.
Bouwmeester has done nothing the past couple of years but whine about Florida. There's plenty of talent there, so I can't say for certain why they aren't making the playoffs. But for a defenseman who wants to be paid in the higher tier, he's done nothing to reward that kind of salary. Has Florida made it to the playoffs since Bouwmeester has been there? Has he lead defensemen in scoring? How about +/-? How about he just shuts up and leads his team to the playoffs for once. That's what's prima donna about him. He whines and complains about things in Florida, but what has he exactly done to help things down there?
Honestly, the bounty it's going to take to acquire Bouwmeester just isn't worth it. Everyone seems to think he's going to come rather cheap, but he's a 25 year old defenseman who's going to be coming into his prime. If Florida is out of it by the trade deadline, you know Martin is going to demand a ridiculous package and he's going to get it. You're looking at a least one or two young roster players, a top prospect and multiple draft picks. And you know that someone will make that kind of deal. I'd rather we keep our own guys and develop accordingly.
If the Panthers can't make the playoffs with Luongo...it isn't Bouwmeester's fault they can't make it.
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And who's to say that even after making a move like that, we have sufficient cap space to sign him? You and I and pretty much everyone knows he's going to look for a big deal and he's going to want more money than what Richards, Carter or Gagne make. He'll probably want more money than Timonen. No thanks.
I don't think we can make the trade anymore...there are too many dominoes for us to pull it off successfully.
Under most UFA circumstances, I'd agree. Florida will command a heavy return because the demand will be there.
It'll be like the Forsberg trade...not much more if anything. Teams have wisened up to how stupid some of these trades have been. This isn't about demand so much as what is smart and what is stupid. Unless a contract can be worked out as part of the deal, Florida's return diminished considerably when they went to arbitration.
I meant all of Lupul, Giroux and Parent and one of Carle/Coburn.
You're right, Bouwmeester is coming into his prime and is already established as a top notch defenseman. I expect two roster players and two prospects will be the asking price for Bouwmeester.
Ok, just to give some examples. Obviously different players, salaries, time of trades, circumstances. (Hossa is not a d-men), (Pronger asked for a trade), Boyle was basically forced to waive his NTC.
Edmonton Oilers traded Chris Pronger to the Anaheim Ducks for Joffrey Lupul, Ladislav Smid, a 1st round selection in 2007, a conditional 1st round selection and a 2nd round selection in 2008.
Buffalo Sabres traded Brian Campbell and a 7th round selection in 2008 to the San Jose Sharks for Steve Bernier and a 1st round selection in 2008.
Tampa Bay Lightning traded Dan Boyle and Brad Lukowich to the San Jose Sharks for Matt Carle, Ty Wishart, a 1st round selection in 2009 and a 4th round selection in 2010.
Atlanta Thrashers traded Marian Hossa and Pascal Dupuis to the Pittsburgh Penguins for Colby Armstrong, Erik Christensen, Angelo Esposito and a 1st-round selection in 2008.
You do not think Carle, Lupul and 1st or Parent or some other prospect not named Giroux, JVR or Sbisa is not good enough value for Jay?
I say no deal.
He is going to want and will probably get Brian Campbell money in July.
That we cannot afford IMO
I really believe that no matter if he is traded or not that he is going to want to test the free agent market. IMO
So there is no way can the Flyers afford to give up a premium for him
The Flyers simply do not need Bouwmeester. Take a look at the Flyers top 4 d-men and compare it to the rest of the East and we're just as good as everyone else, maybe even a little better. Look at the Rangers top 4 - Staal, Mara, Redden, Roszival. Look at the Penguins top 4 - Goligoski, Orpik, and who else? Look at the Devils top 4 - Martin, White, Oduya, and Mottau. Look at Boston's top 4 - Chara, Wideman, Ference, and Ward. Buffalo's top 4 is Lydman, Numminen, Spacek and Rivet. Montreal's top 4 is Hamrlik, Komisarek, Markov and O'Byrne. Washington's top 4 is Green, Morrison, Poti, and Pothier. Carolina's top 4 is Pitkanen, Gleason, Babchuk and Kaberle. Ottawa's top 4 is Philips, Volchenkov, Kuba and Picard. Seriously, I'm not worried about anyone else in the east and their top 4 d-group. Pittsburgh will improve when Whitney and Gonchar come back to the lineup, but it's going to take them time to catch up to game shape.
Seriously, our top four is perfectly fine. If anything, now is the time to leave this group alone and let them settle down and develop chemistry. Once Parent and Jones get healthy, then we can start giving guys breaks and that's only going to make our situation even better.
It'll be like the Forsberg trade...not much more if anything. Teams have wisened up to how stupid some of these trades have been. This isn't about demand so much as what is smart and what is stupid. Unless a contract can be worked out as part of the deal, Florida's return diminished considerably when they went to arbitration.
The Forsberg case was slightly different because he was solely intended to be a rental. I expect Bouwmeester's suitors to acquire him with the intention of locking him up, something that Nashville probably wanted to do with Forsberg, but wasn't expected.
Nashville shot for the moon in the Forsberg deal and definitely overpaid.... especially considering Forsberg was nearing the end of his career. As Bouwmeester is just entering his prime, I think the demand for a player of his caliber will result in an overpayment.
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Originally Posted by Kaktus
Ok, just to give some examples. Obviously different players, salaries, time of trades, circumstances. (Hossa is not a d-men), (Pronger asked for a trade), Boyle was basically forced to waive his NTC.
Edmonton Oilers traded Chris Pronger to the Anaheim Ducks for Joffrey Lupul, Ladislav Smid, a 1st round selection in 2007, a conditional 1st round selection and a 2nd round selection in 2008.
Buffalo Sabres traded Brian Campbell and a 7th round selection in 2008 to the San Jose Sharks for Steve Bernier and a 1st round selection in 2008.
Tampa Bay Lightning traded Dan Boyle and Brad Lukowich to the San Jose Sharks for Matt Carle, Ty Wishart, a 1st round selection in 2009 and a 4th round selection in 2010.
Atlanta Thrashers traded Marian Hossa and Pascal Dupuis to the Pittsburgh Penguins for Colby Armstrong, Erik Christensen, Angelo Esposito and a 1st-round selection in 2008.
You do not think Carle, Lupul and 1st or Parent or some other prospect not named Giroux, JVR or Sbisa is not good enough value for Jay?
Hossa is the closest example of what I expect the Bouwmeester trade to resemble. Pittsburgh both wanted and expected to sign Hossa at the end of the season, so they paid a pretty penny. Two roster players, a prospect and a first round draft pick would be very similar to what I suggested in Lupul, Carle/Coburn, Parent and Giroux for Bouwmeester. Swap Parent with a first if you like; that's the kind of deal it's going to take to land Bouwmeester (+ a bottom six forward, for comparison purposes) and I don't want to see the Flyers pay it.
Pronger's cicumstance was unique and Boyle and Campbell are both one dimensional defensemen. I personally value Bouwmeester higher than Boyle or Campbell. I'm sure there are other who feel differently, though, and maybe would expect a similar package that Tampa/Buffalo received.
Regardless, I agree with BCF16. I'm happy with Philly's defensemen and don't believe they need to overpay in an attempt to improve it at this point.
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16
The Flyers simply do not need Bouwmeester. Take a look at the Flyers top 4 d-men and compare it to the rest of the East and we're just as good as everyone else, maybe even a little better. Look at the Rangers top 4 - Staal, Mara, Redden, Roszival. Look at the Penguins top 4 - Goligoski, Orpik, and who else? Look at the Devils top 4 - Martin, White, Oduya, and Mottau. Look at Boston's top 4 - Chara, Wideman, Ference, and Ward. Buffalo's top 4 is Lydman, Numminen, Spacek and Rivet. Montreal's top 4 is Hamrlik, Komisarek, Markov and O'Byrne. Washington's top 4 is Green, Morrison, Poti, and Pothier. Carolina's top 4 is Pitkanen, Gleason, Babchuk and Kaberle. Ottawa's top 4 is Philips, Volchenkov, Kuba and Picard. Seriously, I'm not worried about anyone else in the east and their top 4 d-group. Pittsburgh will improve when Whitney and Gonchar come back to the lineup, but it's going to take them time to catch up to game shape.
Seriously, our top four is perfectly fine. If anything, now is the time to leave this group alone and let them settle down and develop chemistry. Once Parent and Jones get healthy, then we can start giving guys breaks and that's only going to make our situation even better.
The Forsberg case was slightly different because he was solely intended to be a rental. I expect Bouwmeester's suitors to acquire him with the intention of locking him up, something that Nashville probably wanted to do with Forsberg, but wasn't expected.
Nashville shot for the moon in the Forsberg deal and definitely overpaid.... especially considering Forsberg was nearing the end of his career. As Bouwmeester is just entering his prime, I think the demand for a player of his caliber will result in an overpayment.
Hossa is the closest example of what I expect the Bouwmeester trade to resemble. Pittsburgh both wanted and expected to sign Hossa at the end of the season, so they paid a pretty penny. Two roster players, a prospect and a first round draft pick would be very similar to what I suggested in Lupul, Carle/Coburn, Parent and Giroux for Bouwmeester. Swap Parent with a first if you like; that's the kind of deal it's going to take to land Bouwmeester (+ a bottom six forward, for comparison purposes) and I don't want to see the Flyers pay it.
Pronger's cicumstance was unique and Boyle and Campbell are both one dimensional defensemen. I personally value Bouwmeester higher than Boyle or Campbell. I'm sure there are other who feel differently, though, and maybe would expect a similar package that Tampa/Buffalo received.
Regardless, I agree with BCF16. I'm happy with Philly's defensemen and don't believe they need to overpay in an attempt to improve it at this point.
Quoted for emphasis.
While I agree with the overall premise of your post, that proposal you had was absurd and way out in left field.
Hossa yielded Christensen/Armstrong/Esposito/1st.
Armstrong is a 3rd liner and all he'll ever be.
Christensen was a high risk 3rd liner that had talent to be a 2nd liner, at the time of hte trade.
Esposito is an extremely risky prospect.
a 1st alone is risky.
The price you suggested is a proven second line winger, with potential to be a 1st, a somewhat low risk top line potential prospect, a potential #1 d-man, and a low risk potential second pairing d-man (bear in mind also that all three of these guys are proven - at least mildly - as NHL caliber).
The proposal you made isn't even close to what Hossa got - the Pittsburgh equivalent of your proposal at the time would have been Staal, Whitney, Goligoski and Esposito, for example.
Which I guarantee they wouldn't have done, even if they did plan on resigning him.
Our equivalent of the Hossa deal would be Lupul, Upshall, Parent and a 1st - a heavy price, still. Even that package has more value than what Atlanta got.
I think if you're tlaking Giroux in the deal, the only thing we'd have to add would be salary issues - he's a relatively low risk, high end prospect, IMO.
I also doubt the Flyers include Giroux, hence I don't think we'll be getting JayBo.
Bouwmeester is the most overrated player in the league. Let someone else give up a gold mine for him. Hasn't anyone learned from the Lindros deal that these types of players are detriments around here? Seriously, I want no part of any prima donna and Bouwmeester is a prima donna.
If there's anyone from Florida I'd want, it'd be Keith Ballard.
I totally agree. Bouwmeester is not what people think he is, right now. He plays well offensively, that's his strong point. He is not a good outlet passer, and he is average defensively. He may one day develop into a top defenseman, he has potential. But you'll have to sign him to a large long term deal. That I don't think he's worth right now. A team can only have so many 5 M + long term deals, before it completely loses any Cap flexibility.
Bouwmeester has done nothing the past couple of years but whine about Florida. There's plenty of talent there, so I can't say for certain why they aren't making the playoffs. But for a defenseman who wants to be paid in the higher tier, he's done nothing to reward that kind of salary. Has Florida made it to the playoffs since Bouwmeester has been there? Has he lead defensemen in scoring? How about +/-? How about he just shuts up and leads his team to the playoffs for once. That's what's prima donna about him. He whines and complains about things in Florida, but what has he exactly done to help things down there?
Honestly, the bounty it's going to take to acquire Bouwmeester just isn't worth it. Everyone seems to think he's going to come rather cheap, but he's a 25 year old defenseman who's going to be coming into his prime. If Florida is out of it by the trade deadline, you know Martin is going to demand a ridiculous package and he's going to get it. You're looking at a least one or two young roster players, a top prospect and multiple draft picks. And you know that someone will make that kind of deal. I'd rather we keep our own guys and develop accordingly.
While I agree with the overall premise of your post, that proposal you had was absurd and way out in left field.
Hossa yielded Christensen/Armstrong/Esposito/1st.
Armstrong is a 3rd liner and all he'll ever be.
Christensen was a high risk 3rd liner that had talent to be a 2nd liner, at the time of hte trade.
Esposito is an extremely risky prospect.
a 1st alone is risky.
The price you suggested is a proven second line winger, with potential to be a 1st, a somewhat low risk top line potential prospect, a potential #1 d-man, and a low risk potential second pairing d-man (bear in mind also that all three of these guys are proven - at least mildly - as NHL caliber).
The proposal you made isn't even close to what Hossa got - the Pittsburgh equivalent of your proposal at the time would have been Staal, Whitney, Goligoski and Esposito, for example.
Which I guarantee they wouldn't have done, even if they did plan on resigning him.
Our equivalent of the Hossa deal would be Lupul, Upshall, Parent and a 1st - a heavy price, still. Even that package has more value than what Atlanta got.
I think if you're tlaking Giroux in the deal, the only thing we'd have to add would be salary issues - he's a relatively low risk, high end prospect, IMO.
I also doubt the Flyers include Giroux, hence I don't think we'll be getting JayBo.
Your criticisms are fair, but I believe the comparison to the Hossa deal fits.
We all expect Parent and Giroux to be legit NHLers, but we won't know how sucessful they are until they play full time. All prospects are risky. Armstrong is a young player who has already shown leadership capabilities and is an assistant captain on Atlanta. He may never be first line player, but he'll be a valuable part of any team he plays for.
I added Carle/Coburn because there's no chance the Flyers could sign Bouwmeester without having to send some salaryback the other way (if they were looking to sign JBo). Carle is already signed to a moderately expensive contract and Coburn is due for a raise. Someone has to go to fit Bouwmeester in, unless you want to water down the forward depth.
Whatever the Flyers have to give up to get Bouwmeester is too much, so I don't want to see them pay it. Carle, Lupul and Parent was the closest offer that I think would land Bouwmeester, but I don't think it'd be enough.
Maybe I'm a little overboard with my proposal; I expect his price to be very high, though.
I totally agree. Bouwmeester is not what people think he is, right now. He plays well offensively, that's his strong point. He is not a good outlet passer, and he is average defensively. He may one day develop into a top defenseman, he has potential. But you'll have to sign him to a large long term deal. That I don't think he's worth right now. A team can only have so many 5 M + long term deals, before it completely loses any Cap flexibility.
It could be cap suicide but you're way off on your Boumeester analysis.
It could be cap suicide but you're way off on your Boumeester analysis.
No I'm not. That is the book on Bouwmeester. Fans just hear the name, and get all excited. Do you know how many votes Bouwmeester got for the Norris Trophy last year?
No I'm not. That is the book on Bouwmeester. Fans just hear the name, and get all excited. Do you know how many votes Bouwmeester got for the Norris Trophy last year?
I've watched Jay frequently this year and his outlets have been great, he's free and easy out there this year and he makes the Panthers go. Only one guy can win the Norris so I don't really fret much about votes. I get excited by what I see on the ice and I see a different player in Boumeester this season. Maybe he sees a light at the end of the tunnel, maybe he's just coming into his own on a mediocre team. You certainly have a right to your opinion but your analysis is a little flawed.
I've watched Jay frequently this year and his outlets have been great, he's free and easy out there this year and he makes the Panthers go. Only one guy can win the Norris so I don't really fret much about votes. I get excited by what I see on the ice and I see a different player in Boumeester this season. Maybe he sees a light at the end of the tunnel, maybe he's just coming into his own on a mediocre team. You certainly have a right to your opinion but your analysis is a little flawed.
It's not my analysis. It's opinions I've read from NHL analysts. I haven't seen him play yet this year. So maybe he has advanced his game. But I haven't heard that. And over 20 defenseman received votes for the Norris last year. Bouwmeester did not receive a single vote.
It's not my analysis. It's opinions I've read from NHL analysts. I haven't seen him play yet this year. So maybe he has advanced his game. But I haven't heard that. And over 20 defenseman received votes for the Norris last year. Bouwmeester did not receive a single vote.
Safe to say you agree with your sources, there's many to the contrary as well. You can choose to believe what you read about him but let's also take into account who he's been playing with. Not exactly the place you'd expect a defenseman to flourish. I'd also say if we picked apart that list of 20 defensemen we'd find a few suspects as well. He's a real treat to watch though.
Safe to say you agree with your sources, there's many to the contrary as well. You can choose to believe what you read about him but let's also take into account who he's been playing with. Not exactly the place you'd expect a defenseman to flourish. I'd also say if we picked apart that list of 20 defensemen we'd find a few suspects as well. He's a real treat to watch though.
Your right about that. A few guys who got votes had no business getting votes. But let's take one thing into consideration. If you want to look at why a team isn't a good team. Look at the players who play the most. If they were better, that team wouldn't be so bad. If Bouwmeester was indeed this dominating defenseman that people believe him to be. Florida would be a much better team. He plays close to 30 minutes a night.
Your right about that. A few guys who got votes had no business getting votes. But let's take one thing into consideration. If you want to look at why a team isn't a good team. Look at the players who play the most. If they were better, that team wouldn't be so bad. If Bouwmeester was indeed this dominating defenseman that people believe him to be. Florida would be a much better team. He plays close to 30 minutes a night.
Since the lockout, Jay's a +22 on a horrid team. I think it's safe to say he's not the reason they're losing.
Since the lockout, Jay's a +22 on a horrid team. I think it's safe to say he's not the reason they're losing.
That's because of 06/07 when he was a +23. The Panthers were a decent team then. The players who play the most, are certainly part of the reason a team isn't then good, when a team isn't that good. He's a young defenseman, that has a lot of ability and talent. But he is not the dominating defenseman that fans think he is.
That's because of 06/07 when he was a +23. The Panthers were a decent team then. The players who play the most, are certainly part of the reason a team isn't then good, when a team isn't that good. He's a young defenseman, that has a lot of ability and talent. But he is not the dominating defenseman that fans think he is.
But he is playing on a team with no supporting cast at all.
But he is playing on a team with no supporting cast at all.
You know what, I'm sorry, but I don't buy that at all. The defense in Florida was more than capable last season, the goaltending was excellent and the forward group was a good solid group. This year, the defense is even better with the additions of Ballard, Boynton and McCabe. Yes, it hurt losing Jokinen, but who honestly thought that Horton was going to digress this season the way he has. Who thought Stephen Weiss was going to digress the way he has. The list goes on and on with regards to forwards whose play has dropped a step this year. But don't say that there isn't a supporting cast in Florida because that's load of crap.
