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Old
12-21-2008, 08:19 PM
  #51
Gooch
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Originally Posted by pensown View Post
I get it. One thinks Staal is worth more because he is a homer and the other won't stop talking about how much some of these penguins fans love Staal and how he is overrated. We know you love staal and other loves to hate on homer penguins fans. Time to grow up.

I honestly can careless if you dont care about Sharp. He has scored 18 goals, signed cheap, and is right handed. Sounds like something the penguins needs. Im not saying Staal for SHarp because homers dont see eye to eye with me but the thought of "no interest" in a guy that has more goals than Malkin or Crosby doesn't make any sense.
a guy named "pensown" is calling people homers...

Your trade proposals are awful. You are the pittsburgh version of Jeffleafsfan.

Just because I don't want to see more tired ridiculous proposals that people of your ilk perpetuate where they are continuosly trying to poach this teams youth and future all for a quick fix doesnt mean I am saying that Staal is better than sharp.

They are different types of players and sorry if I dont join the sky is falling crowd where everyone like yourself wants to trade future an depth to create a neater NHL09 starting top line. That apparently is the only version of hockey you seem to be familiar with so I suggest you go to the fantasy section to finish your thoughts where you can come up with the oh so killer Kovalchuk to pens proposal you have been so eagerly working on for the entire season now.

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12-21-2008, 09:09 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Gooch View Post
a guy named "pensown" is calling people homers...

Your trade proposals are awful. You are the pittsburgh version of Jeffleafsfan.

Just because I don't want to see more tired ridiculous proposals that people of your ilk perpetuate where they are continuosly trying to poach this teams youth and future all for a quick fix doesnt mean I am saying that Staal is better than sharp.

They are different types of players and sorry if I dont join the sky is falling crowd where everyone like yourself wants to trade future an depth to create a neater NHL09 starting top line. That apparently is the only version of hockey you seem to be familiar with so I suggest you go to the fantasy section to finish your thoughts where you can come up with the oh so killer Kovalchuk to pens proposal you have been so eagerly working on for the entire season now.
Wow so stupid.

Yeah, Staal+ for Boyes or Whitney+ for Horton is trading away the future.

A 30 goal 23 year old or a 40 goal 26 year old cant be our future? Not good enough? Not enough potential? 23 and 26 too old to be "our future"? That really makes sense.

Sorry I am not a "homer" when I do make proposals, I give fair value in return. Who cares about my username. It has nothing to do with penguin player value. Wonderful response.

I didn't come up with the Dupuis, filewich(6th to the Blues), 5th for Tuomo Ruutu, 3rd that the "more respected/veteran" penguins fans on these forums come up with. I guess I dont know value compared to you guys.

Why do you have that avatar again?


Last edited by pensown: 12-21-2008 at 09:27 PM.
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12-21-2008, 11:29 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Gooch View Post
you and funboy spout off this nonsense like its fact yet nobody says why... Why is Toews worth more than the guy drafted ahead of him?
Because he captained North Dakota to a college championship.

Because he captained a WJC team to a gold medal, scoring three goals in a row in the shootout in one game to move them to the gold medal game.

Because he is the captain of his NHL team at 20.

Because he played on the Canadian WC team without ever having played an NHL game (which is really rare anyway) and Steve Yzerman said he was "as good as any other player he had" playing for the team.

Because there are zero holes in his game where Staal still has some (most noticeably his puckhandling and playmaking are not great still).

Because I have 2 eyes and a brain and have watched both of them enough to know that Toews is head and shoulders better, whether he is playing with skilled linemates or with nobody.

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12-22-2008, 12:52 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Piffle View Post
Because he captained North Dakota to a college championship.

Because he captained a WJC team to a gold medal, scoring three goals in a row in the shootout in one game to move them to the gold medal game.

Because he is the captain of his NHL team at 20.

Because he played on the Canadian WC team without ever having played an NHL game (which is really rare anyway) and Steve Yzerman said he was "as good as any other player he had" playing for the team.

Because there are zero holes in his game where Staal still has some (most noticeably his puckhandling and playmaking are not great still).

Because I have 2 eyes and a brain and have watched both of them enough to know that Toews is head and shoulders better, whether he is playing with skilled linemates or with nobody.
Damn straight Staal isn't worth Toews, and I've said as much since before draft day. But he's worth a helluva lot more than Skille, a couple throw-ins who can't crack a big league line-up - and in roles Pittsburgh has no need for anyway - plus a late 1st.

I'm convinced that there's no reasonable package Chicago fans would approve of. Given Staal's all-around play and production this year despite being used primarily in a 3rd line checking role, and the potential for such a large player who's already shown himself a great playoff performer, nothing but an ideal solution should be acceptable...which means a very good, proven young winger on a value contract for at least two years. Not AHL prospects who haven't proven a thing yet, and not a late 1st rounder.

And since Sharp obviously isn't going anywhere, there's really no sense in belaboring this thing.

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12-22-2008, 01:04 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
Damn straight Staal isn't worth Toews, and I've said as much since before draft day. But he's worth a helluva lot more than Skille, a couple throw-ins who can't crack a big league line-up - and in roles Pittsburgh has no need for anyway - plus a late 1st.
I think we're on the same page here, but I do agree with another Pens poster that the Pens need cheap, young NHL wingers. Chicago has them. Skille is most surely an NHL quality winger, and he is developing nicely in the AHL right now and doing quite well. On a team that is weaker at wing he would be forced into the NHL right now. I think the development time is good for him though. He will be a solid 2nd line wing.

I think Skille, Brouwer and a 1st is fair value for Staal personally, but I've kinda given up trying to propose trades to Pen fans about Staal because they act like you just killed their mother or something. I think this trade solves a couple problems for the Pens and restocks their coffers nicely, while also solving some problems for the Hawks.

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12-22-2008, 01:16 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Piffle View Post
I think we're on the same page here, but I do agree with another Pens poster that the Pens need cheap, young NHL wingers. Chicago has them. Skille is most surely an NHL quality winger, and he is developing nicely in the AHL right now and doing quite well. On a team that is weaker at wing he would be forced into the NHL right now. I think the development time is good for him though. He will be a solid 2nd line wing.

I think Skille, Brouwer and a 1st is fair value for Staal personally, but I've kinda given up trying to propose trades to Pen fans about Staal because they act like you just killed their mother or something. I think this trade solves a couple problems for the Pens and restocks their coffers nicely, while also solving some problems for the Hawks.
Most knowledgeable fans don't like to trade a dollar for 3 quarters, and with good cause. If you're projecting Skille to be a good 2nd line wing, his suggested upside value is about as high as Staal's current value as a great all-around 3rd line center who's on pace for 25+ goals and 50+ points. Giving up the best player in any deal is rarely a good move, and especially so when he's the youngest known commodity.

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12-22-2008, 01:31 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
Most knowledgeable fans don't like to trade a dollar for 3 quarters, and with good cause. If you're projecting Skille to be a good 2nd line wing, his suggested upside value is about as high as Staal's current value as a great all-around 3rd line center who's on pace for 25+ goals and 50+ points. Giving up the best player in any deal is rarely a good move, and especially so when he's the youngest known commodity.
Well, this isn't the fans that will make this decision. Management makes trades that make the team better. I think this trade makes both the Pens and the Hawks better teams now and in the future. Malkin and Crosby will be there for a long, long time. How are you going to get full value out of Staal? You are much better off trading him for help at wing. Maybe you think you could get a better deal than this one and you don't like this one in particular. That's cool. But I don't see how Pen fans can argue that trading Staal for wing help is a bad idea from a logical standpoint. It seems like an emotional attachment to me.

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12-22-2008, 01:43 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Piffle View Post
Well, this isn't the fans that will make this decision. Management makes trades that make the team better. I think this trade makes both the Pens and the Hawks better teams now and in the future. Malkin and Crosby will be there for a long, long time. How are you going to get full value out of Staal? You are much better off trading him for help at wing. Maybe you think you could get a better deal than this one and you don't like this one in particular. That's cool. But I don't see how Pen fans can argue that trading Staal for wing help is a bad idea from a logical standpoint. It seems like an emotional attachment to me.
Naturally. Unfortunately, I doubt any real-life GMs are scouring these boards for trade ideas, so we'll have to operate with what we have.

This trade absolutely doesn't make the Penguins better right now, and I have no idea how you'd get that impression. Staal's a lot better at both ends of the ice than Brouwer, who's the only contributing NHL player out of the entire Hawks package, and Skille's been half as productive in his short NHL stint this season as Jeff Taffe. Unless 1st rounders can be taken 7 months early this year and you can guarantee that a late one will be an immediate impact player, Pittsburgh takes a sizeable hit in the short term, and any future gains would be contingent on 2 of Skille, Brouwer, and the 1st being quality NHLers - which is a crapshoot.

I don't have any problems dealing Staal if it can make the team better by successfully addressing the Penguins' positional holes this year as well as next year's cap issues. A late 1st, a current AHLer, and a player with 14 points in 34 NHL games do not provide that certainty, nor are they even in a vacuum worth a player with Staal's size, pedigree, regular and post-season success, and potential.


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Old
12-22-2008, 02:05 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
Naturally. Unfortunately, I doubt any real-life GMs are scouring these boards for trade ideas, so we'll have to operate with what we have.

This trade absolutely doesn't make the Penguins better right now, and I have no idea how you'd get that impression. Staal's a lot better at both ends of the ice than Brouwer, who's the only contributing NHL player out of the entire Hawks package, and Skille's been half as productive in his short NHL stint this season as Jeff Taffe. Unless 1st rounders can be taken 7 months early this year and you can guarantee that a late one will be an immediate impact player, Pittsburgh takes a sizeable hit in the short term, and any future gains would be contingent on 2 of Skille, Brouwer, and the 1st being quality NHLers - which is a crapshoot.

I don't have any problems dealing Staal if it can make the team better by successfully addressing the Penguins' positional holes this year as well as next year's cap issues. A late 1st, a current AHLer, and a player with 14 points in 34 NHL games do not provide that certainty, nor are they even in a vacuum worth a player with Staal's size, pedigree, regular and post-season success, and potential.
Fair enough. I'm just wondering what you think a good return for Staal would be that your cap could actually handle. You can't trade Staal in a package to get someone like Kovalchuk because you won't have enough cap to ice a full roster. That isn't a smart use of cap anyway, to have it so tightly focused on a few guys.

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12-22-2008, 02:37 AM
  #60
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Fair enough. I'm just wondering what you think a good return for Staal would be that your cap could actually handle. You can't trade Staal in a package to get someone like Kovalchuk because you won't have enough cap to ice a full roster. That isn't a smart use of cap anyway, to have it so tightly focused on a few guys.
I don't think there's a viable, beneficial trade option out there right now for someone of Staal's unique combination of two-way play, upside, and seeming availability. I can agree on nixing a Kovy, or the like (unless Whitney's dealt, in which case a high-priced winger could be sought out).

No other team in the league would remotely consider dealing a player with Staal's age, pedigree, skillset, and proven performance, because it's simply not done. Given the Pens' strengths and weaknesses, it becomes a talking subject, but I'd like to keep him, let him grow, develop wingers from within and keep searching for the right winger fit for Sid through FA.

Personally, I'd only give him up if a great young winger on a good contract were offered up, a la Patrick Sharp, Dustin Brown, or Brad Boyes. Some may think that's too much, but I don't think it's unreasonable all things considered, and if people don't like it, I'm much more than content to keep him on the Pens and build around the best 1-2-3 center punch in the league.

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12-22-2008, 03:21 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Piffle View Post
I think we're on the same page here, but I do agree with another Pens poster that the Pens need cheap, young NHL wingers. Chicago has them.
That would be me .

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Originally Posted by Piffle View Post
I think Skille, Brouwer and a 1st is fair value for Staal personally, but I've kinda given up trying to propose trades to Pen fans about Staal because they act like you just killed their mother or something.
Yeah, well, I want your first rounder from last year and then that package is A-OK with me.
Seriously, I like both Skille and Brouwer as stated. Where I agree with Gooch and Champagne Wishes is that both of them have yet to show much of anything and a low first is just a bit too far off paying out to be an equalizer. Good NHL winger capability in both of them and a decent rookie season there from Brouwer so far, but still 'sleepers' really. Kyle Beach is an elite level talent who has not yet shown it in the NHL (for good reasons of course), but that also means that he just doesn't have comparable value to Staal who has been showing it since he started in the league.
Hence I think a package like this can be done, as Chicago are still well stocked on the wing even after letting go of three, as only one of them is currently on the team, and you even have others coming like your avatar-guy. I understand why you are also high on Beach and wouldn't want him included, but I think NHL managers most often agree that the team getting the best player in the deal have to compensate the other team quite sizeably. Staal clearly is a long way more proven than any of the ones I ask for.

What some Pens fans do not get in this is that to get a certified elite player in return for Staal, we will most often have to add (as in the Horton scenario), and then we are really only a little better off cap wise. If we were to get the mentioned three players, yes we make a gamble here and now, but considering what we would otherwise have to field next season on the wings, all these three are likely to be competitive, and the upside (one third line center gone, replaced by three top six wingers) is just stupendous. Additionally, their low price makes it possible to also add an impact free agent, which otherwise we could not.

Just get it done. Caveat being of course, that I only talk about this as an offseason deal. We cannot do this now.


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Old
12-22-2008, 08:03 AM
  #62
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So other than "Toews has captained team x to whatever" that is the only retort for how he is infinitely better than Staal? Champagne Wishes (i miss your old name doctordark since it didnt sound so damn weird to say) has always been a fan of Toews and made it known before the draft. I am not expecting him to go against himself and then say that Toews is not better than Staal. But apparently important people did say Staal was a better pick than Toews and going by Toews current performance I don't really think they're regretting that decision one bit...

If you want to go into who shouldve been picked it shouldve been Kessel over any of them for what the pens need but thats a whole other thread.

This wasnt meant to be a Toews bashing but merely trying to bat some of you off his nuts a bit so you can get back to reality that is he is on the same bracket of players that Jordan Staal is. Stats suggest the same, and those stats dont even factor in defensive edge, which Staal has.

I am willing to suggest Toews is slumping offensively and I will cede him the advantage offensively. Staal's two-way play though evens this out. If you were to swap the two out both teams would be in the very same situations as they are now, no better, no worse. Unless Toews made a better transition to wing than Staal did at the beginning of this season. It's all moot points since Toews is more important to Chicago than Staal is to pittsburgh... That isnt saying Toews is better... its saying that Chicago doesnt have Crosby and Malkin ahead of Toews on the depth chart.

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12-22-2008, 09:59 AM
  #63
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Hawks fan here. I would love to have Staal on the Hawks. but...why can't the Pens move Staal to wing?

Toews.... The Hawks do not intend to trade Toews. I don't believe in never, but it there are not that many trades at all in the entire NHL where the Hawks would consider trading there captain.

He is captain and anybody that is looking at stats doesn't realize there is much more to it. Ever since he has joined the lineup, we have started winning, even if he isn't scoring.

I have posted this before, intangibles are hard to define, but not impossible, especailly for a hockey eye. Such little things like reaching an extra 2 inches to breakup a pass lane, or make that extra push around a defender. Staal is great defensively, but Toews is right there with him.

Toews has a lot of room to improve, but if you broke down every single category in hockey from passing, skating, acceleration, stick handling, defense, positions, awareness, ect.... he is at least above average at every single one of them and superior at some. His hockey awareness and intensity are off the charts. He knows where to go and will not quit on a play ever, through adversity , difficulty and pressure no matter how intense. Many of these thing Gooch, are circumstantial, so you will never get your fact sheet that you are looking for. You just have to watch both players over time and decide for yourself.

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12-22-2008, 10:23 AM
  #64
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Hawks fan here. I would love to have Staal on the Hawks. but...why can't the Pens move Staal to wing?

Tried and failed. Granted he played there his rookie year, but he is vastly better (and more comfortable) playing center. While it might appear he's more valuable getting minutes in the top 6, he's so much better at center than wing the gain is negligible at best.

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12-22-2008, 10:55 AM
  #65
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Champagne Wishes (i miss your old name doctordark since it didnt sound so damn weird to say)
Yeah, I just like to make things difficult for people.

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12-22-2008, 02:32 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by WOTR View Post
Hawks fan here. I would love to have Staal on the Hawks. but...why can't the Pens move Staal to wing?

Toews.... The Hawks do not intend to trade Toews. I don't believe in never, but it there are not that many trades at all in the entire NHL where the Hawks would consider trading there captain.

He is captain and anybody that is looking at stats doesn't realize there is much more to it. Ever since he has joined the lineup, we have started winning, even if he isn't scoring.

I have posted this before, intangibles are hard to define, but not impossible, especailly for a hockey eye. Such little things like reaching an extra 2 inches to breakup a pass lane, or make that extra push around a defender. Staal is great defensively, but Toews is right there with him.

Toews has a lot of room to improve, but if you broke down every single category in hockey from passing, skating, acceleration, stick handling, defense, positions, awareness, ect.... he is at least above average at every single one of them and superior at some. His hockey awareness and intensity are off the charts. He knows where to go and will not quit on a play ever, through adversity , difficulty and pressure no matter how intense. Many of these thing Gooch, are circumstantial, so you will never get your fact sheet that you are looking for. You just have to watch both players over time and decide for yourself.
Staal on wing just didn't work.

Right now, Toews has much greater value in a trade than Staal does. Like you said, he is going nowhere and he shouldn't be. I hope his entire career is with the Hawks and they lose many Stanley Cup Finals to Jordan Staal and his Penguins.

If we did trade Staal for Toews, we'd still have an overpriced, under-utilized, mis-cast third-line center. As already stated, Shero would be looking at your wings/wing prospects.

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12-22-2008, 03:11 PM
  #67
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From the Hawks perspective, I would trade Beach and Skille for Staal. Or Beach and Brouwer. I can't see all three of them going, though, for one reason: there is a problem with salary. The Penguins would have to take someone who makes more than those players' small cap hits, and I do not see the Hawks moving four players for one. Their chemistry is too good right now.

This is why I felt Havlat was more likely than Brouwer. If Havlat is moved, the Hawks don't have to attach Sopel or Byfuglien to the trade just to make the cap situation work.

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12-22-2008, 09:13 PM
  #68
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Scouts miss out on plenty. All the time. And this happened to be just a few picks apart, so you can hardly blame them. Less so considering the great impact Staal has made for us. Ultimately Toews wouldn't be needed in black and gold either, because he should be top 6 and we have the best two centers in the world.

Staal is 6.4/220 pounds or something. He brings a certain package that helps him on the defensive side of things. Probably prohibits his work on the other end of the ice as he has not yet developed any playmaking skills whatsoever.

Don't be an idiot mate, or I have to make you reconcile your comments with how you view Miro Satan... who has more goals than Jordan Staal. Toews started out bad this season. His turn around to form is a major reason Chicago is now great, and he has been producing at a ppg clip for two months.

Pffft. You will use stats when it suits you, and discard them when you don't want to. You look at Toews play, you know he is a better talent than Staal... if you're not blinded by homerism. There's no shame in this. Staal might be the 5th best talent in his draft class rather than the second best. Doesn't mean we made a horrible mistake or that he isn't a great talent. But if you cannot see that Toews is a better hockey player, then... well, words are just wasted.
Well Mate, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. Some teams like smallish, quicker players while some prefer size. If you were to petition GM's around the league as to which player they'd prefer you'd probably see about a 50/50 split.

What's good for others isn't for some, Mate.

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12-23-2008, 10:29 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Sphenisciformes View Post
Staal on wing just didn't work.

Right now, Toews has much greater value in a trade than Staal does. Like you said, he is going nowhere and he shouldn't be. I hope his entire career is with the Hawks and they lose many Stanley Cup Finals to Jordan Staal and his Penguins.

If we did trade Staal for Toews, we'd still have an overpriced, under-utilized, mis-cast third-line center. As already stated, Shero would be looking at your wings/wing prospects.
Unlike Staal, Toews plays great on the wing. That's where he started at in North Dakota.

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