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Old
12-23-2008, 10:26 PM
  #26
Smallz
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worth 2nd-3rd rounder at the deadline

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12-23-2008, 10:33 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Smallz View Post
worth 2nd-3rd rounder at the deadline
He'd fetch more. I'd guarantee it.

A proven, minutes-eating NHL dman added to a playoff contender's roster in March is worth well more than a 2nd or 3rd round future. Especially if he is locked up for two more seasons at a respectable price.

You may be underrating Witt...or overrating picks. Keep in mind, those would be picks late(r) in each round, given that they would be picks of playoff teams.

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12-23-2008, 11:56 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Trottier View Post
He'd fetch more. I'd guarantee it.

A proven, minutes-eating NHL dman added to a playoff contender's roster in March is worth well more than a 2nd or 3rd round future. Especially if he is locked up for two more seasons at a respectable price.

You may be underrating Witt...or overrating picks. Keep in mind, those would be picks late(r) in each round, given that they would be picks of playoff teams.

I'm not saying I agree with him - just pointing out that trade value is unpredicatable at the deadline (not that I think there is any real chance Witt gets moved but we'll see).

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12-24-2008, 12:06 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ploplopfizzfizz View Post
Just thoretical offers from a few teams named Washington,Buffalo,Phili

Washington`s 1st and Lepisto(or another mid road prospect) for Witt and a 4th(Washington needs help on D for a playoff push,they lack toughness down low)

Buffalo- Witt and Weight 4 Stafford,Mcarthur ,2nd and another prospect.-(fills 2 major voids for Buffalo but leaves the Isles short another D-man


Phili -Witt ,3rd and 4th round pick 4 Jones,Knuble,Alberts K.Marshall and a 1st.(Flyers need toughness down low but may like to lose some cap to add someone at a later time.This will free up an extra 4 million of cap(non pro rated).Also fills great needs for the Isles for a sound Dman signed for a another year,a semi touted prospect(who can be like Hatcher) and the pick probably in the 25-30 range.
My OPINION is that you are expecting too much here. I think a 2nd rounder and a prospect is more realistic.

But, again, in the wacky world of deadline deals (assuming Witt were moved at the deadline) ANYTHING can happen.

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12-24-2008, 12:12 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ploplopfizzfizz View Post
Just thoretical offers from a few teams named Washington,Buffalo,Phili

Washington`s 1st and Lepisto(or another mid road prospect) for Witt and a 4th(Washington needs help on D for a playoff push,they lack toughness down low)

Buffalo- Witt and Weight 4 Stafford,Mcarthur ,2nd and another prospect.-(fills 2 major voids for Buffalo but leaves the Isles short another D-man


Phili -Witt ,3rd and 4th round pick 4 Jones,Knuble,Alberts K.Marshall and a 1st.(Flyers need toughness down low but may like to lose some cap to add someone at a later time.This will free up an extra 4 million of cap(non pro rated).Also fills great needs for the Isles for a sound Dman signed for a another year,a semi touted prospect(who can be like Hatcher) and the pick probably in the 25-30 range.
all of those are way WAY too much.

From the Caps point of view: 1. We don't want Witt. We are tired of killing off his "2 minute for a stupid retaliation" penalties. 2. The Cap hit doesn't work. You have to take back equal salary when dealing with the Caps these days. 3. We don't want Witt. 4. The Caps don't trade away 1st round picks ever.

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12-24-2008, 07:50 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier View Post
He'd fetch more. I'd guarantee it.

A proven, minutes-eating NHL dman added to a playoff contender's roster in March is worth well more than a 2nd or 3rd round future. Especially if he is locked up for two more seasons at a respectable price.

You may be underrating Witt...or overrating picks. Keep in mind, those would be picks late(r) in each round, given that they would be picks of playoff teams.
I think you may be overrating Witt. What did Washington get for Witt, a late 1st round and that was what 2-3 years ago? I remember then people thought that was overpayment then. With 2 plus more years of wear you still think he would fetch a 1st plus prospects. With that contract and his age I think the Islanders would be lucky to get a 2nd round pick. But you never know with injuries and some team may feel the the desperation to bring in a player like him they might over pay. I don't see it.

edit: Oops I did forget that the CAPS got Beech back in that trade too. Is Kris Beech still playing?

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12-24-2008, 09:22 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier View Post
He'd fetch more. I'd guarantee it.

A proven, minutes-eating NHL dman added to a playoff contender's roster in March is worth well more than a 2nd or 3rd round future. Especially if he is locked up for two more seasons at a respectable price.

You may be underrating Witt...or overrating picks. Keep in mind, those would be picks late(r) in each round, given that they would be picks of playoff teams.
points of argument.

1. a proven minutes eating defenseman on a terrible hockey team does not always equal a minutes eating defenseman on a playoff team.

2. most said Witt would get no better than a 2nd round pick, yet the Caps got a first from Nashville. Beech was a throw in of no value.

3. trading a player that will be 34 at the deadline with two more season on his contract(36) is progressively difficult. Particularly when you take into account that he is already slow and outdated for the style of play in the NHL.

I think the Capitals might be interested under the right circumstances. However, the Caps are not looking for him to be a minutes eater as much as a role player, which is what his value would be on other playoff teams. Leadership, toughness and experience is what he brings to a good team, not so much top 3 or 4 minutes.

at $2.7m and for two more seasons after, that is a lot of money to pay for a role player.

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Old
12-24-2008, 09:35 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by txpd View Post
points of argument.

1. a proven minutes eating defenseman on a terrible hockey team does not always equal a minutes eating defenseman on a playoff team.

2. most said Witt would get no better than a 2nd round pick, yet the Caps got a first from Nashville. Beech was a throw in of no value.

3. trading a player that will be 34 at the deadline with two more season on his contract(36) is progressively difficult. Particularly when you take into account that he is already slow and outdated for the style of play in the NHL.

I think the Capitals might be interested under the right circumstances. However, the Caps are not looking for him to be a minutes eater as much as a role player, which is what his value would be on other playoff teams. Leadership, toughness and experience is what he brings to a good team, not so much top 3 or 4 minutes.

at $2.7m and for two more seasons after, that is a lot of money to pay for a role player.

You are seriously underrating Witt. Although I don't think he has played well since his return from injury, he is far more than a "role player." He is a very solid physical top four player. I'll agree with you that he is pressed into a higher role on the Island than he should have. That is, he is not a top pairing dman by any stretch. He is, however, an extremely effective guy would could easily play on the 2nd pairing for most teams in the league.

There is no way his contract (which is 3 million, btw) is an overpayment in terms of $. In fact, I'd say he is fairly underpaid.

I personally don't see him returning much more than a 2nd and a prospect. However, I personally still see that as a moot point because I don't think the Isles have even a vague interest in moving him.

If anything, I think he is probably slightly more valuable now than he was as a Cap. Arguably, his career years have come on the Island.

Anyway, I respect that we have a legitimate disagreement about this player. I just think you are pretty far off here. Calling a dman of this caliber a "role player" is a bit silly, to be honest.


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12-24-2008, 10:08 AM
  #34
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I certainly see the value of Brendan Witt. There are role players of different roles. Some role players play very limited roles and others larger. I don't see Witt as that limited beyond the fact that he is a one way player and that he is old enough that his knee injuries could be reducing his effectiveness.

Lets be honest, the league is a speed league now and Witt is a throw back to the clutch and grab days. He is slow. Things have changed so much that Tom Poti is a stay at home in the Caps style of play.

I would see Witt in a role where he gets secondary minutes/assignments at even strenth
and is a primary on the PK. The Caps need a player that can deliver a little fear in front of the Washington net. Witt can do that against good players.

That said, if he is slowing down, the last year of his contract would be brutal.

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12-24-2008, 10:12 AM
  #35
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From the oilers a second rounder and a proscpeect

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Old
12-24-2008, 10:28 AM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by txpd View Post
I certainly see the value of Brendan Witt. There are role players of different roles. Some role players play very limited roles and others larger. I don't see Witt as that limited beyond the fact that he is a one way player and that he is old enough that his knee injuries could be reducing his effectiveness.

Lets be honest, the league is a speed league now and Witt is a throw back to the clutch and grab days. He is slow. Things have changed so much that Tom Poti is a stay at home in the Caps style of play.

I would see Witt in a role where he gets secondary minutes/assignments at even strenth
and is a primary on the PK. The Caps need a player that can deliver a little fear in front of the Washington net. Witt can do that against good players.

That said, if he is slowing down, the last year of his contract would be brutal.

I agree with you that he would get "secondary minutes" (meaning, that on a good team, he is not a top pairing guy) and be a go-to-guy on the PK. But, you are hardly talking about a "role player" here. You're talking about a key component of your defense.

And, I've not seen any evidence that he is "slowing down." In fact, given that his game is all about guts and smarts rather than speed or skill, I think that relatively unlikely (unless injuries take a toll).

I also strongly disagree with you comment that he is "slow." Honestly (and with no disrespect meant), I wonder if we are talking about the same guy. Witt is NOT an elite skater but he is well above average for a player of that ilk. His decent mobility is part of what has made him so effective in his own end over the years.

Incidently, the Caps currently have the 23rd worst defense in the league as well as one of the worst PK% in the league (worse, in fact, than the lowly Islanders) Washington has been given considerable icetime to marginal dmen like Jurinca, Erksine, and used so-so guys Morrisson in central roles. In fact, the only thing keeping Washington from another early summer is your elite three forwards and Green. The Capitals are going to need a major, major upgrade on defense to be at all competitive in the post season. This is the reason why I don't buy your argument that Witt would be a "role player" for Wash.


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Old
12-24-2008, 10:33 AM
  #37
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Witt is one of those guys that has made a name for themselves by being reliable on an unreliable team. Like how Dick Tarnstrom led the 04 Penguins in scoring. Or Bob Kudelski in 1994.

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12-24-2008, 10:37 AM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier View Post
He'd fetch more. I'd guarantee it.

A proven, minutes-eating NHL dman added to a playoff contender's roster in March is worth well more than a 2nd or 3rd round future. Especially if he is locked up for two more seasons at a respectable price.

You may be underrating Witt...or overrating picks. Keep in mind, those would be picks late(r) in each round, given that they would be picks of playoff teams.
I agree. Craig Rivet, an impending UFAgent, and a d-man in pretty much the same class as Witt, garnered the Habs a 1st and Josh Gorges.

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12-24-2008, 10:39 AM
  #39
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I agree. Craig Rivet, an impending UFAgent, and a d-man in pretty much the same class as Witt, garnered the Habs a 1st and Josh Gorges.

I actually think that Rivet was underrated as a Hab. At his best, he was nearly as physical as Witt and a better skater.

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12-24-2008, 10:45 AM
  #40
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I actually think that Rivet was underrated as a Hab. At his best, he was nearly as physical as Witt and a better skater.
Maybe, but he was playing some pretty bad hockey at the time he was dealt and had health issues. I was very suprised the Habs were able to land as much as they did. Personally, IMO Josh Gorges has developed into what Rivet was for the Habs back then. If Rivet was offered back to the Habs for just Gorges, I wouldn't do it.

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12-24-2008, 10:56 AM
  #41
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If the Islanders decided to move him, Witt should easily be able to return a 1st rounder and, probably, a middling prospect as well. Some posters here tend to value 1st rounders more than do GMs of contender clubs come deadline time.

To some teams, in the cap world, the extra years will be an obstacle, while to others a benefit. Some teams value the fact that the salaries of rentals come off the books. It would depend on the club, I suppose. In some scenarios, a club might send along a roster player and his salary to offset the cap hit. Not necessarily a dump; more some cap management book keeping. The extra years make the return harder to predict than for a rental.

I've no doubt that even a struggling Witt would return a hefty price at the deadline, though. His skill set is rare. He's a veteran stay-at-home defender with a clear physical slant to his game.

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12-24-2008, 04:34 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post
Incidently, the Caps currently have the 23rd worst defense in the league as well as one of the worst PK% in the league (worse, in fact, than the lowly Islanders) Washington has been given considerable icetime to marginal dmen like Jurinca, Erksine, and used so-so guys Morrisson in central roles. In fact, the only thing keeping Washington from another early summer is your elite three forwards and Green. The Capitals are going to need a major, major upgrade on defense to be at all competitive in the post season. This is the reason why I don't buy your argument that Witt would be a "role player" for Wash.
I think we are really dancing around the meanings of the same words/phrases and closer to agreeing than not. I believe I posted above that Witt returned a first already when many said it wouldnt happen. I certainly agree with Drake that it could well happen again.

This part above I have some argument with. The Caps are 23rd in the league in goals against, but many would say that is more a direct result of the Caps goaltending (Theodore) and their style of play. They are 5th in the NHL in shots on goal and 15th in shots allowed.

The defense is very aggressive in Boudreau's system and defense play is a reason the Caps take so many shots and tend to control the territorial play.

Its also fair to say that the Capitals defense is loser/rebuilding team young. Not Cup contender experienced. Green (22), Schultz(22), Alzner(19), Morrisonn(300 NHL Games) and Jurcina(298 games) are still wet behind the ears. Poti is the only experienced player on that defense. They are far better players than you give them credit for.

Again, the Caps might like to have Witt back. His experience would be valuable.

I will say I find it ironic that Witt left the Caps when the team wanted him to stay because he didnt want to play through a rebuild. Now the Caps are where they are and Witt is where he is.

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12-24-2008, 04:38 PM
  #43
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Witt is exactly what the Rangers are missing. A hard-nosed, physical d-man.

And i'll stop there because I know a trade between these two will never happen.

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12-24-2008, 04:59 PM
  #44
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I think you may be overrating Witt. What did Washington get for Witt, a late 1st round and that was what 2-3 years ago? I remember then people thought that was overpayment then.
The same people who think a bonafide contender should never "overpay" for players to potentially get them over the top...because futures are more important. The same people who value kiddie-prospects and abstract draft picks over Stanley Cups. I have little regard for their opinion, because they do not live in reality.

You or I may have considered a late 1st rounder for Witt a couple years back "overpayment". Clearly NHL execs did not.

By the way, I do not recall suggesting that Witt should fetch a #1st round pick, though all #1s are not alike. However, he is worth more than a 2nd or 3rd alone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by txpd View Post
points of argument.

1. a proven minutes eating defenseman on a terrible hockey team does not always equal a minutes eating defenseman on a playoff team.
No doubt. My assessment of the player is based on his roles past, and present and what I see in his play. So yes, I easily project Witt being a valuable 3-4 (minutes eating) dman on a contender. And I trust my opinion.

Quote:
2. most said Witt would get no better than a 2nd round pick, yet the Caps got a first from Nashville. Beech was a throw in of no value.
Most here said that. Most here live for futures. NHL GMs paid to win come the spring value proven NHL talent. Different priorities.

Quote:
3. trading a player that will be 34 at the deadline with two more season on his contract(36) is progressively difficult. Particularly when you take into account that he is already slow and outdated for the style of play in the NHL.
A team may not want to take on another two years, agreed. But I think you are off with regard to his age being a factor. Check the average age of dman on Cup winners. Likewise, "outdated" for the NHL? Witt, admittedly, has looked rusty this season coming off of injuries. He was solid the last two seasons. If you want to assume that he lost it over the summer, based on a slow first three months this season, go right ahead. I'm not.

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Originally Posted by Fire Therrien View Post
Witt is one of those guys that has made a name for themselves by being reliable on an unreliable team. Like how Dick Tarnstrom led the 04 Penguins in scoring.
Tarnstrom had an NHL career of a couple of seasons. He was here and gone. Witt has played a signinfcant role on NHL teams for a decade+. And some of those Caps teams were regularly playoff caliber, if I recall. Your overall point makes sense, but I do not agree with the analogies.


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Old
12-24-2008, 05:42 PM
  #45
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I think we are really dancing around the meanings of the same words/phrases and closer to agreeing than not. I believe I posted above that Witt returned a first already when many said it wouldnt happen. I certainly agree with Drake that it could well happen again.

This part above I have some argument with. The Caps are 23rd in the league in goals against, but many would say that is more a direct result of the Caps goaltending (Theodore) and their style of play. They are 5th in the NHL in shots on goal and 15th in shots allowed.

The defense is very aggressive in Boudreau's system and defense play is a reason the Caps take so many shots and tend to control the territorial play.

Its also fair to say that the Capitals defense is loser/rebuilding team young. Not Cup contender experienced. Green (22), Schultz(22), Alzner(19), Morrisonn(300 NHL Games) and Jurcina(298 games) are still wet behind the ears. Poti is the only experienced player on that defense. They are far better players than you give them credit for.

Again, the Caps might like to have Witt back. His experience would be valuable.

I will say I find it ironic that Witt left the Caps when the team wanted him to stay because he didnt want to play through a rebuild. Now the Caps are where they are and Witt is where he is.
I don't know that Witt left to avoid a rebuild. He wasn't exactly going to a team that was in win now mode, and he just signed a two-year extension knowing the Isles were about to miss the playoffs.

And, I'd also say that the "where" the Caps are is not as far as you seem to be implying. They have three excellent young forwards, and that is the strength of the team. But, right now the defense is quite weak, goaltending is questionable, PK is wretched, and there isn't much scoring depth. Caps have a long, long way to go still.

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12-24-2008, 06:33 PM
  #46
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You're right. I think the Caps are better than you do. By a fair piece from this most recent installment of your opinion.

The Capitals are 6-1-2 vs the Atlantic and 5-1-1 vs the NE including 3-0 vs Boston and Montreal.

Much of that has been done with Semin and Green out of the lineup. You are woefully mistaken if you think the Capitals are nothing more than Ovechkin, Semin and Backstrom and a bunch of chumps. If you want to see what that looks like, see Ottawa and Tampa Bay.

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12-24-2008, 06:42 PM
  #47
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You're right. I think the Caps are better than you do. By a fair piece from this most recent installment of your opinion.

The Capitals are 6-1-2 vs the Atlantic and 5-1-1 vs the NE including 3-0 vs Boston and Montreal.

Much of that has been done with Semin and Green out of the lineup. You are woefully mistaken if you think the Capitals are nothing more than Ovechkin, Semin and Backstrom and a bunch of chumps. If you want to see what that looks like, see Ottawa and Tampa Bay.
A "bunch of chumps" is a bit beyond my post, no?

However, the basics of my post are pretty much dead-on. Caps do not have offensive balance, an effective defense, or good goaltending. Right now, they're being carried by a small group of elite players. So, this is still a team with a lot of work to do before it will be a serious contender.

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12-25-2008, 02:47 AM
  #48
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I'd love to have Witt on the kings.

Preissing and a 2nd?

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12-25-2008, 02:53 AM
  #49
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I'd love to have Witt on the kings.

Preissing and a 2nd?
A regular healthy scratch and a pick?

Not nearly enough.

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12-25-2008, 08:17 AM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post
A "bunch of chumps" is a bit beyond my post, no?

However, the basics of my post are pretty much dead-on. Caps do not have offensive balance, an effective defense, or good goaltending. Right now, they're being carried by a small group of elite players. So, this is still a team with a lot of work to do before it will be a serious contender.
Minus Ovechkin the Capitals are deminished. As would be any team. Past that, though, you are not listening...or comprehending what you are reading. Half or more of the small group of elite players that you claim are carrying the team have not been playing on the team now for half of the games played this season. Semin has missed 13 of 35 games. Green 12 of 35 games. Fedorov 20 of 35 games. Poti 12 of 35 games. Most of these games missed have been at the same time.

Meanwhile the team as extended its lead to 8 pts in the SE and jumped to the 6th best pt % in the NHL.

I will let this go. I guess what matters is the scoreboard. The Caps are short of being tied for 2nd in the east by one game in hand held by the Flyers. If that is all because of Ovechkin or your small group of elite players, thats fine with me. Its an improvement over anything this team has done since the finals in 98 and they are far from maxxed out.

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