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12/23/08: "No COUNTRY for Old Men" Predators @ Panthers

View Poll Results: Tonights Winner:
predators 4 21.05%
PANTHERS 15 78.95%
Voters: 19. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
12-24-2008, 08:37 PM
  #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeroG View Post
comparing something more specific about two players, their hands, speed, quickness, or something like sure. looking at two different styles and judging effort... doesn't work, imo.
I'll agree on that. And I get tired of seeing people always using Booth as a benchmark for "effort", and if someone doesn't play exactly the same style as him(driving the net recklessly and flying up the ice like he's been shot out of a cannon), then they're lazy. Booth has his own style, groomed to emphasize his strengths, as does Frolik, as does Horton. You don't see Frolik driving the net like an insane person seemingly without regard for himself, do you? No. But yet when Horton doesn't play that way, he's lazy. Yes, Frolik is producing now so it's easy to set up a clear separation between the two right now. But I bet when Horton starts producing but still playing his "lazy" style, people will still be riding him like Seabiscuit.

People also have to keep in mind, Booth has a rare kind of work ethic, it's been conditioned that way over the course of his entire hockey career because unlike guys like Horton, Frolik, Weiss, etc., he's had to work like a rented mule just to keep moving on to higher levels. And even still, in the NHL level, he has to keep playing that way. If he doesn't keep driving the net with abandon and dangerously trying to fly past defenders wide all the time, then he'll quickly lose his effectiveness. He doesn't have the natural talent guys like Frolik, Horton, and Weiss have, so he has to play a certain style if he wants to keep getting as much playing time as he is and keep producing. It's pointless to compare the way Booth plays with the way for example, Horton plays. Horton doesn't HAVE to play that way, that's why he doesn't. Did Gretzky or Lemieux play that way? No, definitely not even close. Because they didn't have to. Why would you constantly put yourself at risk for serious injury almost every game if you didn't have to?

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12-24-2008, 10:03 PM
  #102
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Nice work once again MB!

Going forward, I will try to refrain from getting into "player" squabbles. It makes no sense to continue to bicker with others that I like someone and they don't. Waste of time.

Now onto T-Vo, I was one of the people who wouldn't have minded if T-Vo was moved. Not because I hate the guy. If I had to pick a main reason, I would say salary. If Andy shows he can do an effective job being a starting goaltender for this club, I have no problems giving him the job and a raise, which you then have to figure T-Vo would be moved if that were the case. And I would have no problems spreading T-Vo's saved-salary around to Andy's raise, (hopefully) Bouw's raise, and perhaps another future player.

When Andy went on his streak, others thought it was disrespectful to T-Vo to continue playing Andy. I never looked at it that way. I knew T-Vo was going to get another crack at it, he just had to be patient and wait for that time. The Vancouver loss was apparently that time. I will say that all that time watching Andy has made T-Vo step up his game, as he is currently playing his best hockey of the season.

I'm grateful that we have two reliable goaltenders. Interesting to see what Martin will do with Andy in the off season and would hate to see him walk. But I have to doubt that both would want to continue playing tandem again next year, not to mention salary.

-ghoste

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12-24-2008, 11:17 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by MisterBouw View Post
I'll agree on that. And I get tired of seeing people always using Booth as a benchmark for "effort", and if someone doesn't play exactly the same style as him(driving the net recklessly and flying up the ice like he's been shot out of a cannon), then they're lazy. Booth has his own style, groomed to emphasize his strengths, as does Frolik, as does Horton. You don't see Frolik driving the net like an insane person seemingly without regard for himself, do you? No. But yet when Horton doesn't play that way, he's lazy. Yes, Frolik is producing now so it's easy to set up a clear separation between the two right now. But I bet when Horton starts producing but still playing his "lazy" style, people will still be riding him like Seabiscuit.

People also have to keep in mind, Booth has a rare kind of work ethic, it's been conditioned that way over the course of his entire hockey career because unlike guys like Horton, Frolik, Weiss, etc., he's had to work like a rented mule just to keep moving on to higher levels. And even still, in the NHL level, he has to keep playing that way. If he doesn't keep driving the net with abandon and dangerously trying to fly past defenders wide all the time, then he'll quickly lose his effectiveness. He doesn't have the natural talent guys like Frolik, Horton, and Weiss have, so he has to play a certain style if he wants to keep getting as much playing time as he is and keep producing. It's pointless to compare the way Booth plays with the way for example, Horton plays. Horton doesn't HAVE to play that way, that's why he doesn't. Did Gretzky or Lemieux play that way? No, definitely not even close. Because they didn't have to. Why would you constantly put yourself at risk for serious injury almost every game if you didn't have to?
Horton's "style" in juniors was always a physical game... This is why he was drafted as a power forward... It went away when injured his shoulder...

After that he started emulating Olli's floating/cherry picking style... While it pots goals, it's far from a complete game...

Horton hasn't played his style of hockey since his first year up... When he truly was a dominating player on the ice.

That's why people that remember him then are so frustrated with him now. Last game showed more promise... Let's hope he get's his aggression back... He plays awesome when he gets mad...

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12-24-2008, 11:58 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by pb1300 View Post
Did you happen to notice two new screens in the arena anywhere? I read the other day that they were installing two new video screens in the arena, before this homestand.
I didn't notice, but I wasn't really walking around the arena much because I got there late and then talked to people in the intermissions. I'll pay attention next game though and take a pic of anything I see that's different.

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Why am I not seeing the picture? Maybe my work is blocking the domain it's hosted on.
It was hosted on tinypic. I've attached it to this post, hope you can see it now.
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File Type: jpg bac.jpg‎ (165.6 KB, 5 views)

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12-25-2008, 12:47 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by MisterBouw View Post
I'll agree on that. And I get tired of seeing people always using Booth as a benchmark for "effort", and if someone doesn't play exactly the same style as him(driving the net recklessly and flying up the ice like he's been shot out of a cannon), then they're lazy. Booth has his own style, groomed to emphasize his strengths, as does Frolik, as does Horton. You don't see Frolik driving the net like an insane person seemingly without regard for himself, do you? No. But yet when Horton doesn't play that way, he's lazy. Yes, Frolik is producing now so it's easy to set up a clear separation between the two right now. But I bet when Horton starts producing but still playing his "lazy" style, people will still be riding him like Seabiscuit.

People also have to keep in mind, Booth has a rare kind of work ethic, it's been conditioned that way over the course of his entire hockey career because unlike guys like Horton, Frolik, Weiss, etc., he's had to work like a rented mule just to keep moving on to higher levels. And even still, in the NHL level, he has to keep playing that way. If he doesn't keep driving the net with abandon and dangerously trying to fly past defenders wide all the time, then he'll quickly lose his effectiveness. He doesn't have the natural talent guys like Frolik, Horton, and Weiss have, so he has to play a certain style if he wants to keep getting as much playing time as he is and keep producing. It's pointless to compare the way Booth plays with the way for example, Horton plays. Horton doesn't HAVE to play that way, that's why he doesn't. Did Gretzky or Lemieux play that way? No, definitely not even close. Because they didn't have to. Why would you constantly put yourself at risk for serious injury almost every game if you didn't have to?
I'm not calling Horton lazy because he doesn't drive the net. That's not his style. I'm not expecting him to do that.

I call Horton lazy because when I have seen him play at the BAC, I find his defensive effort sub-optimal more often than not. You would not notice this on TV since it is off camera. Honestly, this is the part of his game that frustrates me most.

Meanwhile, in the offensive zone Horton is generally is waiting for something to happen rather than trying to make something happen. Most of the time it seems he is just waiting for the puck to come to him. The team needs more from him than that.

Keep in mind that "lazy" is a relative term. I simply know that he is capable of much more. Him potting a goal or two will not change my opinion if I still see him floating most of the time. Is he trying? If you ask him, he will say yes. Can he try harder? Absolutely. He needs to focus on making himself a better player - and I think a lot of that effort has to happen in the offseason and between games. I want Horton to succeed. I think he can be a great player. My perception that he is not as committed to reaching that level as he should be based on his position on the team and his contract.

I know you and 0.G. disagree with my opinion on Horton. That's fine. You are both entitled to your opinions. It is not going to change my opinion of what I see with my two eyes. Again, I would ask you two to watch him play in person before you dismiss the opinions of others. I am saying this in a friendly, nonconfrontational manner.

When Horton starts playing defense, starts fighting for pucks in the corner and starts making intelligent passes I will sing his praises - whether or not he shows up on the scoresheet. If he is doing those things I know that the goals will come - even if they are scored by someone else.

Incidentally, I did think he played a somewhat better game against Nashville than against Colorado. While I'm still not satisfied, hopefully that's a trend.

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Old
12-25-2008, 02:09 AM
  #106
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I was at the last two games and it was nice to see. I hope you guys can get on the right track, its good for all hockey fans in south florida.

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12-25-2008, 10:57 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by angry_treefrog View Post
I'm not calling Horton lazy because he doesn't drive the net. That's not his style. I'm not expecting him to do that.
well, thanks for clarifying. unfortunately, i believe you are in the minority. i suppose it's understandable if you have haven't been following the game for that long and you see a kid like booth - you want to say "hey, why can't everyone play like that?". it is a rather simple perspective though. i hope most of us can agree on that.

Quote:
I call Horton lazy because when I have seen him play at the BAC, I find his defensive effort sub-optimal more often than not. You would not notice this on TV since it is off camera. Honestly, this is the part of his game that frustrates me most.

Meanwhile, in the offensive zone Horton is generally is waiting for something to happen rather than trying to make something happen. Most of the time it seems he is just waiting for the puck to come to him. The team needs more from him than that.

Keep in mind that "lazy" is a relative term. I simply know that he is capable of much more. Him potting a goal or two will not change my opinion if I still see him floating most of the time. Is he trying? If you ask him, he will say yes. Can he try harder? Absolutely. He needs to focus on making himself a better player - and I think a lot of that effort has to happen in the offseason and between games. I want Horton to succeed. I think he can be a great player. My perception that he is not as committed to reaching that level as he should be based on his position on the team and his contract.

I know you and 0.G. disagree with my opinion on Horton. That's fine. You are both entitled to your opinions. It is not going to change my opinion of what I see with my two eyes. Again, I would ask you two to watch him play in person before you dismiss the opinions of others. I am saying this in a friendly, nonconfrontational manner.
i'll get a chance to see him in february when they're back. keep in mind though that *everyone* says "i've seen it with my own two eyes"! unfortunately, everyone's eyes are not equal. would you trust some of the posters who come to the boards insisting coach doesn't know what he's doing? not everybody understands what guys are trying to do, being asked to do, can do, etc. i'm not saying that applies to you at all. moreso some others who clearly don't have a deep grasp of the game.

it also has to be acknowledged that sometimes guys go through stretches where they just aren't seeing the ice well, don't have the legs, or for whatever reason - something unquantifiable - just aren't playing well. they are human, not robots (yes, i'm a broken record on this but you'll have to agree, this is pretty much unarguable ). it happens to the best players.

having said all that, i do agree that horton needs to manufacture some momentum. he's got to find a way to push himself. i just don't think "lazy" is a productive descriptor at this point.

Quote:
When Horton starts playing defense, starts fighting for pucks in the corner and starts making intelligent passes I will sing his praises - whether or not he shows up on the scoresheet. If he is doing those things I know that the goals will come - even if they are scored by someone else.

Incidentally, I did think he played a somewhat better game against Nashville than against Colorado. While I'm still not satisfied, hopefully that's a trend.
i have to say, though we can't see every backchecker on TV, backpressure has been good enough to limit two decent teams to minimal scoring chances (at least after the first against nashville) and i haven't really seen an issue with his play in the defensive end. (aside: his center, weiss, commented on the quality of the backpressure last game in the post game interview... check it out) i also don't see a problem with his work ethic in the offensive zone. he's been working in the corners when he needs to be. lastly, he's still even in terms of +/- the past few games since coming back while playing 15+ minutes. if he wasn't working on both ends i think we'd probably see more evidence.

i'd say give him a bit more time to find a groove with his linemates. maybe we'll see some changes if that doesn't happen quickly. i wouldn't mind seeing him with frolik and, say, kreps. the pressure frolik puts on the D could open some more space for nate.

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12-25-2008, 11:40 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by zeroG View Post
well, thanks for clarifying. unfortunately, i believe you are in the minority. i suppose it's understandable if you have haven't been following the game for that long and you see a kid like booth - you want to say "hey, why can't everyone play like that?". it is a rather simple perspective though. i hope most of us can agree on that.
I think the issue is... when Horton first got here... he played EXACTLY like Booth... Then he got hurt...

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12-25-2008, 11:58 AM
  #109
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Horton's "style" in juniors was always a physical game... This is why he was drafted as a power forward... It went away when injured his shoulder...

After that he started emulating Olli's floating/cherry picking style... While it pots goals, it's far from a complete game...

Horton hasn't played his style of hockey since his first year up... When he truly was a dominating player on the ice.

That's why people that remember him then are so frustrated with him now. Last game showed more promise... Let's hope he get's his aggression back... He plays awesome when he gets mad...
I agree that he changed his style somewhat after 03-04, and he also injured his shoulder again during the 04-05 AHL season, so maybe it's something that's in the back of his mind. If so, you can't really blame him IMO for reigning it in a little and not being a bat out of hell on the forecheck anymore. He did start off last season like that, but it tailed off once he went into his slump. I've seen signs of it popping back into his game now and then since, especially last game, as long as he gets in the corners and grinds and uses his size to his advantage like he did last game, then I'll be satisfied with the physical part of his game. You can't fly in on the forecheck and throw your body around like a wrecking ball every shift every game and not expect to get injured. That's just playing with fire. That's why you see 4th and sometimes 3rd line guys do it on teams most of the time, because they have to do it to stay in the NHL. You don't necessarily want your best forwards doing this.

I do agree that Olli's floating/cherrypicking style may have rubbed off on Horton a little as time wore on, but people also have to remember what kind of players these guys are. They are snipers, they get paid to snipe and they depend on other players getting the puck to them. They sit back and "float" more than most other players because they are sitting back behind the play waiting for a feed which will enable them to get their shot off with time and space. Grinders have a job, it's to get their noses dirty and get the puck to the skill players, set-up men have a job which is to get the puck to the snipers, etc. Grinders aren't necessarily harder working or grittier than snipers like Horton, it's simply that they have a different role to play.

Now, saying that, Olli does float a lot more than Horton. Even for a sniper who tries to fade in behind the play, he doesn't get involved as much as he should. At least Horton forechecks well and hits more than once in a blue moon and he backchecks much better than Olli. Olli is pretty much the definition of floater.

And to your last point, yes Horton is awesome when he gets mad, which is great. Some players get taken off their game when the physical play gets upped on them, Horton thrives. That's just instinct though I think, it's hard to manufacture that adrenaline IMO when you're not getting roughed up. As long as Horton takes that next step and becomes a 40 goal scorer or close to it, then I'll be satisfied as long as he still forechecks well and throws the body around like he's done the last 2 games.

Quote:
Originally Posted by angry_treefrog View Post
I'm not calling Horton lazy because he doesn't drive the net. That's not his style. I'm not expecting him to do that.

I call Horton lazy because when I have seen him play at the BAC, I find his defensive effort sub-optimal more often than not. You would not notice this on TV since it is off camera. Honestly, this is the part of his game that frustrates me most.

Meanwhile, in the offensive zone Horton is generally is waiting for something to happen rather than trying to make something happen. Most of the time it seems he is just waiting for the puck to come to him. The team needs more from him than that.

Keep in mind that "lazy" is a relative term. I simply know that he is capable of much more. Him potting a goal or two will not change my opinion if I still see him floating most of the time. Is he trying? If you ask him, he will say yes. Can he try harder? Absolutely. He needs to focus on making himself a better player - and I think a lot of that effort has to happen in the offseason and between games. I want Horton to succeed. I think he can be a great player. My perception that he is not as committed to reaching that level as he should be based on his position on the team and his contract.

I know you and 0.G. disagree with my opinion on Horton. That's fine. You are both entitled to your opinions. It is not going to change my opinion of what I see with my two eyes. Again, I would ask you two to watch him play in person before you dismiss the opinions of others. I am saying this in a friendly, nonconfrontational manner.

When Horton starts playing defense, starts fighting for pucks in the corner and starts making intelligent passes I will sing his praises - whether or not he shows up on the scoresheet. If he is doing those things I know that the goals will come - even if they are scored by someone else.

Incidentally, I did think he played a somewhat better game against Nashville than against Colorado. While I'm still not satisfied, hopefully that's a trend.
ATF, I do realize that you can notice a lot more parts of the game live than you can on TV, so I am willing to take your word for it somewhat about Horton's defensive play. But he's just coming back from injury, and last game I thought he was backchecking well, and for the most part I think he's played decently defensively this season. I'm not counting on it ever to be a strength of his game, but if you say his defensive effort is sub-optimal most of the time, then I'm willing to believe you. I did like however, how he backchecked last game like I said, and hopefully he continues that.

I've already given my thoughts on why Horton tends to wait for the puck to come to him. When the puck is near him though, he doesn't back off. He goes in and fights for it. If he didn't do that, then I'd be worried. There's a reason Booth was put on that line, and Gelinas before him.

Horton already justifies his contract. To get a 60 point scorer nowadays, you're going to have to pay around 4 mil/year, actually I think Horton's contract is a nice bargain, and will especially be so with every passing year. That said, he does have to start producing quickly, but he's also been out for 9 games, and his PPG percentage isn't terrible. It could be better, but let's also keep in mind he was from the beginning of the season thrust into a position he hadn't played in five years, and actually I think he did pretty well considering, just not well enough to keep him there and stay patient with him with our offense struggling as it was.

You said when Horton starts playing defense, starts fighting for pucks in the corner, and starts making intelligent passes, you will sing his praises. Then you say he did play a somewhat better game against Nashville, while still not satisfied. I did think he did those 3 things well against Nashville, but I agree he can be better. So in that case I agree with you. Hopefully he keeps improving in those areas, as well as starts potting some goals.

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12-25-2008, 12:08 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Madhatter73 View Post
I think the issue is... when Horton first got here... he played EXACTLY like Booth... Then he got hurt...
Yes, exactly. He had two major shoulder surgeries after that. I think maybe he quickly realized he couldn't play the way he used to be able to in juniors anymore. Like I said, Horton doesn't have to play that way to stick in the NHL, that's why he doesn't. Booth does, or at least he does in order to keep getting the ice time he gets.

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12-25-2008, 12:14 PM
  #111
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I think the issue is... when Horton first got here... he played EXACTLY like Booth... Then he got hurt...
mmm... similar but not exact. nate's always had another facet to his game - he's a scorer. but, yes, this is a good point.

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12-26-2008, 08:40 AM
  #112
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Hopefully someone gets a new GDT up for the Bolts game tonight.

/thread.

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