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"This team just doesnt have enough offensive players"

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Old
01-03-2009, 09:15 PM
  #1
Inferno
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"This team just doesnt have enough offensive players"

Its just amazing though isnt it? Its always the players fault that this team can not score goals.
3 years ago, Jagr goes bonkers, Prucha explodes out of nowhere, we still only finish at 14th (3.05G/G) in the NHL in offense. Clearly we dont have the players...

We add a 40 goal scorer from the previous year in Shanahan to help fix the problem.

so 2 years ago we had more or less the same team, added Shanahan, and our offense dropped from 14th in the NHL to 18th in the NHL (2.84G/G). Damn! I guess we still have too many round holes and square pegs! How about we have more or less the same team, subtract Nylander and add Chris Drury (a 37 goal scorer the year before) and Scott Gomez (a steady 60-75 point getter) and im sure that will bring in more offense right?

We drop from 18th in the NHL in offense to 25th (2.5 G/G).

Ok, it must all be Jagr and the Czech connections fault, you know because we have all these square pegs and round holes, so lets dismantle that team, get rid of Jagr, Shanahan, Straka, Avery, etc, and try a more or less completely different group of players. Lets put together a team that Tom Renney has more or less either drafted, or has been here since before they arrived (IE, he must have had some hand in picking what players he wants, but will have to deal with whatever players are there before he gets here)

So this year we go from 25th in the NHL to 26th in the NHL (2.5 G/G)

Is it possible...just possible, that we DO have the horses to be score goals?

Is it possible, just possible, that this team as constructed should be a viable contender for the cup?

I mean, clearly adding more talented players, or adding players that Tom Renney has a direct impact in signing doesnt help our cause offensively, so maybe, just maybe, there is another reason why this team can't score goals.

I dunno, you tell me.

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01-03-2009, 09:22 PM
  #2
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Inferno -- chemistry is certainly an issue. Right now this damn pp is sucking the life outta the team. Look at Philly. Sure they have more offensive talent but their pp is clicking at over 25% efficiency. If we were anywhere near 20% who knows what the residual effect would be on the rest of the offense. Goal scoring is contagious --so is gripping the stick too hard and trying to hard. Right now most of the team can't buy a goal if their life depended on it (Cally and Pru excluded). Here's an idea, Tom, why not ride those two and Dawes while they are hot. Try double shifting, starting them on the pp and that kind of stuff. NAAA! That makes too much sense. Lets keep putting out Drury out there to lose key faceoffs and not score goals. There, thats what we need!

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01-03-2009, 09:22 PM
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who said that?

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Old
01-03-2009, 09:29 PM
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Inferno
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Inferno -- chemistry is certainly an issue. Right now this damn pp is sucking the life outta the team. Look at Philly. Sure they have more offensive talent but their pp is clicking at over 25% efficiency. If we were anywhere near 20% who knows what the residual effect would be on the rest of the offense. Goal scoring is contagious --so is gripping the stick too hard and trying to hard. Right now most of the team can't buy a goal if their life depended on it (Cally and Pru excluded). Here's an idea, Tom, why not ride those two and Dawes while they are hot. Try double shifting, starting them on the pp and that kind of stuff. NAAA! That makes too much sense. Lets keep putting out Drury out there to lose key faceoffs and not score goals. There, thats what we need!

You know whats funny though? The better teams never seem to have chemistry problems, no matter who they bring in. The Devils can lost Gomez, Rafalski, Brodeur, Neidermeyer, etc, and continue to be an elite playoff team. Somehow they never have chemistry problems.

Im a firm believer that Chemistry is a function of playing style. The reason Nylander/Dubi and Jagr worked so well was because they are build to play a puck posession, wear you out kind of style, which worked really well with Tom Renneys defensive system. If youre always back, and you always hold on to the puck for long stretches of time, youre going to win. But this team does not have puck posession players anymore. Zherdev is a borderline posession guy, but hes far better off dishing or scoring on the rush than he is in a set up offense. Dubinsky, Voros, Betts, and Orr are probably the players best suited to play a puck possession kind of game. The players we have now, in terms of style, (one would think) would be best suited to play an up tempo offensive attack style. I mean, you have skaters, you have skaters who can pass, you have skaters who drive the net, etc. What you dont have are big huge players, so if you want to control the puck for long stretches of time, and you dont have elite talent OR size, then you need to adapt to the kind of players you have.

im starting to veer off topic a bit into kill Renney land, but all im saying is, that the excuse that we dont have enough offensive players on this team, seems very hollow to me when you look at it in terms of how weve gotten progressively worse, despite adding more and more talented players.

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01-03-2009, 09:29 PM
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Dont have enough defensive players either!

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01-03-2009, 10:01 PM
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New coach.

Sick of this defensive ****.

I want an offensive guy.

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01-03-2009, 10:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
Clearly we dont have the players...
I dunno, you tell me.
Players are there, the coach and the system he implements isn't.

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01-03-2009, 10:05 PM
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I Am Chariot
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New coach.

Sick of this defensive ****.

I want an offensive guy.
Thats going to pinch after having Jagr and forcing him to play Rennys system, and now hes gone.

Im not sure what another coach could do for this team. They show periods where they are very good. Very very good in fact. But they lack any killer instinct with the puck.

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01-03-2009, 11:01 PM
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Is it possible...just possible, that we DO have the horses to be score goals?

Is it possible, just possible, that this team as constructed should be a viable contender for the cup?



uhmm. NO.

This team, as constructed, is what it has been over the past few weeks...a team good enough to be just over 500. We arent a viable contender for the division, let alone the conference or cup.

We also do not have the horses to be a superior offensive team. As it is right now, we have Korp and prucha in our top 6. I know all the prucha lovers here will say pru is a beast and a legit top 6 forward...he's not. Korpikoski, will be a decent all around player in a few years...he's not now.

Along with those two, we have naslund, drury, and gomez. Gomer and drury are paid like elite players..neither one of them are. Naslund has been steady and what most of us thought he would be this year..a 60-65pt player this season.

Zherdev is the only player on our team with elite talent, but has yet to show it through a full season. He's on pace for about 70, which would be a career high, and is about the best people could have expected this year. He COULD one day hit his potential of a 90pt player...right now, he's a 65-70 pt player.

Dubisnky, will be a very good player for years to come...this year, he's been unbelievably disappointing. He's expected to be huge for us which is unrealistic and unfair to ask of a 2nd year player. But, because this team doesnt have the horses, its what we need from him and we are not getting it.

After those players your top 9 is rounded out with kids in cally and dawes.

Off the top of my head all these teams have a deeper and better offensive team than we do in the east:

-Boston, Montreal, Philly, Washington, Carolina

THose are definites. After that you can even say: Pitt, Devs and Buffalo are better offensively.

It's hilarious to read these posts of how everyone is so disappointed this year in this team. They overachieved immensely in the beginning and has now been showing what kind of team it really is. We need...let me say that again..we NEED our goalie play like the best goalie on the planet every game in order for us to win. We are not a good enough TEAM, to overcome a subpar or even average showing from henrik.

This team is FAR from a cup contender or a team capable of being explosive offensively.

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01-03-2009, 11:03 PM
  #10
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With such a deep draft, and the fact that we lost our best offensive prospect, the idea of tanking is at least somewhat tempting.

No way the Rangers will finish anywhere near the bottom, but they can easily miss the playoffs.

One thing that Sather should do is to diligently try and get rid of the Redden contract at the deadline. I don't think this team is any worse of without him to best honest. 3rd or 4th round pick... anything.

Then have Potter play the rest of the season and into next season. If things go well Anisimov will make the team next season, and Grachev might have a shot too. We'll have in excess of 5 million to sign a good forward over the offseason. That's the direction I hope that the team will go

However, I don't see stubborn Sather even trying to get rid of Redden.

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01-04-2009, 12:05 AM
  #11
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Biggest problems in my point of view:

1) Constant line juggling, if their is a chemistry issue, this is why

2) No accountability - Prucha, Voros and Fritsche are not the only players that have earned a sitdown this season

3) Powerplay- fire Pearn if this is the best we can do...and for anyone that says its the players fault, guess what, fire Pearn for not trying guys that arent in the 5 million plus club

4)Too many minutes for the 4th line, when these guys score you think it might start snowing in hell...no doubt i love their defense and the occasional bang up shift, but they get too much icetime for a team that cant score

5)beyond the line juggling, with the talent we have we are being spread too thin
naslund-gomez-drury
prucha-dubinsky-zherdev
dawes-korpikoski-callahan
atleast we may have 2 scoring lines...instead of the 1 or none currently

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01-04-2009, 12:28 AM
  #12
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One thing that Sather should do is to diligently try and get rid of the Redden contract at the deadline. I don't think this team is any worse of without him to best honest. 3rd or 4th round pick... anything.
It's a legitimate question, not trying to troll at all. What team do you think would be remotely interested in Redden and his $6.5 mil cap hit for the next 5 seasons, especially when it's very likely that the cap is going to go down either next year or the year after?

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Old
01-04-2009, 12:31 AM
  #13
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It's a legitimate question, not trying to troll at all. What team do you think would be remotely interested in Redden and his $6.5 mil cap hit for the next 5 seasons, especially when it's very likely that the cap is going to go down either next year or the year after?
His contract will be tough to move. Hopefully he starts to play with some emotion and effort to atleast earn some more of that contract.

On the other hand, I don't see the Gomez and/or Rozi contracts as being hard to move. But I don't see those being moved. Especially Rozi as he is starting to play like his old-self again (which is a good thing).

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01-04-2009, 03:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
Its just amazing though isnt it? Its always the players fault that this team can not score goals.
3 years ago, Jagr goes bonkers, Prucha explodes out of nowhere, we still only finish at 14th (3.05G/G) in the NHL in offense. Clearly we dont have the players...

We add a 40 goal scorer from the previous year in Shanahan to help fix the problem.

so 2 years ago we had more or less the same team, added Shanahan, and our offense dropped from 14th in the NHL to 18th in the NHL (2.84G/G). Damn! I guess we still have too many round holes and square pegs! How about we have more or less the same team, subtract Nylander and add Chris Drury (a 37 goal scorer the year before) and Scott Gomez (a steady 60-75 point getter) and im sure that will bring in more offense right?

We drop from 18th in the NHL in offense to 25th (2.5 G/G).

Ok, it must all be Jagr and the Czech connections fault, you know because we have all these square pegs and round holes, so lets dismantle that team, get rid of Jagr, Shanahan, Straka, Avery, etc, and try a more or less completely different group of players. Lets put together a team that Tom Renney has more or less either drafted, or has been here since before they arrived (IE, he must have had some hand in picking what players he wants, but will have to deal with whatever players are there before he gets here)

So this year we go from 25th in the NHL to 26th in the NHL (2.5 G/G)

Is it possible...just possible, that we DO have the horses to be score goals?

Is it possible, just possible, that this team as constructed should be a viable contender for the cup?

I mean, clearly adding more talented players, or adding players that Tom Renney has a direct impact in signing doesnt help our cause offensively, so maybe, just maybe, there is another reason why this team can't score goals.

I dunno, you tell me.
Or maybe they have no goal scorers. As usual, the simple answer is the correct one.

Who on this squad do you think should be counted on to possibly score 40 goals? I don't see a single player that would fall into that rung of expectations. Besides Naslund, which Rangers have ever been an offensive force?

Look over at Jersey. No one plays a more defensive minded style, yet Parise is piling up goals. Scorers score. The Rangers don't have any scorers. At least not at the moment.

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Old
01-04-2009, 03:05 AM
  #15
Inferno
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Or maybe they have no goal scorers. As usual, the simple answer is the correct one.

Who on this squad do you think should be counted on to possibly score 40 goals? I don't see a single player that would fall into that rung of expectations. Besides Naslund, which Rangers have ever been an offensive force?

Look over at Jersey. No one plays a more defensive minded style, yet Parise is piling up goals. Scorers score. The Rangers don't have any scorers. At least not at the moment.
rrriiiggght, and last year? what was the excuse? 2 years ago? 3 years ago? Under a Tom Renney structure we have never been better than 14th in the NHL, or roughly dead center, and more often than not we are right at the bottom. Hall of famers, young kids with all the talent in the world. it doesnt matter.

btw, ill say it again, the nashville predators of 2 seasons ago finished 4th in the NHL in goals, and not a single player on their roster scored more than 27 goals.

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Old
01-04-2009, 04:02 AM
  #16
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Oh God. 3 years ago we had a first line that scored, a random kid who popped 30 somehow and.. what? The second line was whichever LW was left over from Rucinsky/Straka, a DONE DONE DONE Steve Rucchin, a floaty Petr Sykora. The others? Lemme rattle off the guys and the amount of TEN (10) goal seasons they've had: Betts (0), Hollweg (0), Moore (0), Jason Ward (1, that year), Ortmeyer (0), 5 goals out of Ville Niemenen before he got shipped off. The best bottom six guy we had was arguably Marcel Hossa?

Don't attach Renney's "structure" to that group of stone handed pluggers.

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01-04-2009, 04:38 AM
  #17
NYR Sting
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Oh God. 3 years ago we had a first line that scored, a random kid who popped 30 somehow and.. what? The second line was whichever LW was left over from Rucinsky/Straka, a DONE DONE DONE Steve Rucchin, a floaty Petr Sykora. The others? Lemme rattle off the guys and the amount of TEN (10) goal seasons they've had: Betts (0), Hollweg (0), Moore (0), Jason Ward (1, that year), Ortmeyer (0), 5 goals out of Ville Niemenen before he got shipped off. The best bottom six guy we had was arguably Marcel Hossa?

Don't attach Renney's "structure" to that group of stone handed pluggers.
While I'm all for getting rid of Renney, I still agree with this.

This delusion that we were a great team during the Jagr-era is ridiculous. We were carried for a season by Lundqvist and Jagr, who made Nylander, Straka, and Prucha look a lot better than they are/were. That isn't meant as an insult to any of the three, as I like them all, but it's the truth. Then we were carried for half a season by Jagr, Lundqvist and Shanny, until Shanny got worn out and we were on the ropes, resuscitated only by Avery's arrival.

Last year, we had enough depth thanks to an influx of decent youth and an outstanding year from the King to make up for the obvious decline in Jagr and Shanahan to be a decent team.

This team is obviously not a great team now, but it wasn't that great 2-3 years ago, either. Jagr and Lundqvist (and for a spell, Shanny) were great, everyone else was just a bunch of journeymen players and rooks along for the ride.

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01-04-2009, 05:11 AM
  #18
Inferno
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yeah, straka (multiple 30 goal scorer), nylander (80 point player as a ranger), sykora (multiple 30 goal scorer), rucinsky (multiple 28+goal scorer), jagr (hall of famer), zherdev (multiple 26+ goal scorer), naslund (hall of famer), gomez (multiple 80 point getter), drury (multiple 30 goal scorer), prucha (52 goals in his first 2 years), shanahan (hall of famer), dubinsky (talented all around player), callahan (talented all around player), dawes (talented offensive player, though often invisible to be fair), cullen (reliable 40-45 point getter), rucchin (multiple 20 goal scorer), etc...hes just had NOTHING to work with...

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01-04-2009, 05:14 AM
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As much as I love naslund he isn't a hall of famer.

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01-04-2009, 05:39 AM
  #20
NYR Sting
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yeah, straka (multiple 30 goal scorer), nylander (80 point player as a ranger), sykora (multiple 30 goal scorer), rucinsky (multiple 28+goal scorer), jagr (hall of famer), zherdev (multiple 26+ goal scorer), naslund (hall of famer), gomez (multiple 80 point getter), drury (multiple 30 goal scorer), prucha (52 goals in his first 2 years), shanahan (hall of famer), dubinsky (talented all around player), callahan (talented all around player), dawes (talented offensive player, though often invisible to be fair), cullen (reliable 40-45 point getter), rucchin (multiple 20 goal scorer), etc...hes just had NOTHING to work with...
Hate to break it to you, but you have to put each of these players in context.

Jagr - You can't say Renney didn't get as much as he possibly could from Jagr. Jagr wasn't going to have another 2005-06. Everybody slows down with age. He was still a 70 point player, very impressive, but his decline was evident from 2006-07.

Shanahan - Ask any Detroit Red Wing fan about Shanny, they'll tell you that his last couple of years in Detroit, including his final, 40-goal season as a Wing, he did most of his scoring in the first half of the season. Even then, by the All-Star break, Shanny was slowing down. It wasn't the Knuble incident that slowed Shanny down, he was already slowing down before that. Look at the month-by-month numbers. Shanny was great the first half of 06-07, and then he slowed down. By 07-08, it was clear that he was going to have even less shelf life, though the amount of minutes he was getting didn't help.

Straka - Had 2 great years in his career before becoming a Ranger, both with the Pens. In 98-99, he played with Jagr who had a sick year, 127 points. In 2000-01, he was part of one of the best top-six forward groups in recent memory. That was the year Mario had 76 points in 43 games and Kovalev had an MVP-caliber season. Jagr also chipped in 121 points and Lang 80. That was an insanely good top six and power play that year for the Pens. Those seasons and his first 2 Ranger seasons aside, he's been an injury prone 40-50 point player, and he was a journeyman. Traded many times.

Nylander - 50-60 point player before coming to the Rangers. Turned into an 80 point player at the age of 33-34. Yeah, who do you think was responsible for that. One man. Jagr.

Sykora - 40 games, 16 goals, 31 points. That translates into about 30 goals, 60 points for a full season. That is right around Sykora's average. So obviously Renney got from him what he was supposed to. The problem is they decided to let Sykora go and bring in Matt Cullen. Big mistake.

Cullen - Cullen is a decent 3rd line center who the Rangers tried to turn into a 2nd line playmaker. Like I said, big mistake. He didn't work, and obviously they let him go. That was a dumb signing. It's not that he's a bad player, but he was wrong for this team.

Gomez - Now if you've ever read my posts, you know I really, really don't like Gomez. But Sather (likely with Renney's approval, I would assume) signed Gomez to an exorbitant contract despite the fact that Gomez is an overrated, one-dimensional player and they had no one for him to play with. The Rangers got Gomez because they thought they could turn into the Devils. Killer goalie, great trap d, great PK, Drury was going to be the Madden and the centerpiece, Gomez. Except they forgot one little detail. We don't have an Elias.

Drury - His success has come playing either with Hall of Fame type offensive players or with speedy talented wings like Jason Pomminville. The Rangers tried to emulate this as well, except the issue is Callahan and Dawes are not Pomminville. They don't have that kind of talent.

Naslund - Did you really expect more from him? This is exactly what Nucks fans told us to expect. A guy who is pretty slow and invisible much of the time but will score 25-30 goals. That's what we're getting. He's not a 40 goal scorer anymore. He's old.

Zherdev - He's a 24 year old having his best season of his career. I don't see the problem. I think he's pretty close to his ceiling anyway. He's a great player, one of my favorites on the team, but he just isn't a superstar talent. He's a great complimentary player. 70-75 point 1st or 2nd line wing on a cup contender.

Callahan - I think he deserves some PP time, but overall, he's being handled fine. On a great team, Callahan is a wonderful, 15-20 goal 3rd liner. Love him to death, but he's not an elite talent. He just doesn't have the moves. He's a grinder who contributes.

Dawes - Plays great for a few games and is invisible for weeks at a time. Not sure what the deal with him is, really.

Rucchin - Notice where his career went once he left the Rangers. He was a guy at the end of his career. A 3rd liner at that point playing on the second line. He was nothing special that year.

Dubinsky and Prucha both have gripes with Renney, but in Dubi's case I'm not worried. He's a sophomore. He'll get over it and become a very very good 2nd line center, that I'm convinced of.

I usually agree with your points Inferno, and I think it's time for Renney to go almost as much as you do, but this isn't the right way to show why that's the case. Renney has never had real great talent other than Jagr and Shanahan, and now Zherdev.

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01-04-2009, 06:58 AM
  #21
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I would hazard to guess that we have the smallest team in the east--maybe even the smallest team in the league. If not we're close. We have no elite forwards. Most other teams have at least someone or two approaching that status. We are maxed out on the cap and overpaying several players who don't deserve what they're getting. Will we make the playoffs? Maybe. Are we a contender? No. At least not as currently constructed--and as long as we're stuck with all of the Drury, Gomez, Redden and Roszival contracts we're not going to have the cap space to improve our team. If the cap goes down we're going to be even more screwed as it's going to make it tougher to sign our best younger players--Staal, Zherdev, Dubinsky. IMO we'd be almost better off dumping the teams vets and starting from scratch if there was a way we could manage that. Since the cap--the more bad signings a team makes the less breathing space that team has.

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01-04-2009, 07:19 AM
  #22
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rrriiiggght, and last year? what was the excuse? 2 years ago? 3 years ago? Under a Tom Renney structure we have never been better than 14th in the NHL, or roughly dead center, and more often than not we are right at the bottom. Hall of famers, young kids with all the talent in the world. it doesnt matter.

btw, ill say it again, the nashville predators of 2 seasons ago finished 4th in the NHL in goals, and not a single player on their roster scored more than 27 goals.
As you wish.

Lets go back 3 years.

Who besides Jagr was a finisher on any of those teams? Who could pot 40 goals besides Jagr? If you tell me a broken down and aged Shanahan I will be forced to laugh.

I looked at that Nashville squad. They had 6 players get 20 or more goals plus Radulov had 18 in 50 or so games. Most of those players are better offensive talents than what the Rangers currently have.

Considering what some here think of Prucha, those same fans would have viewed Radulov as the next great one. They also had far better offensive defensemen than the Rangers, including Weber.

Instead of complaining, tell me who were the goal scorers on the last 3 Rangers squads that are being held back by the coaching staff.

Edit: I see that you already answered my question. But your answer was to tell us that at one time in their respective careers, some put up bigger numbers. Since another poster has already explained the problem with your assertions, there is no need for further comment from me.

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01-04-2009, 08:22 AM
  #23
bumrusherer
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There is a definite lack of identity with this team.

At first, it looked like they wanted to be a puck possession team. That got scrapped fairly quickly and we became a counter offensive team that sat back and then attacked the opposition in quick rushes up the ice.
That got scrapped when our D-Men couldnt make basic plays in their own zone.

So then we go through stretches when we try to play north-south. But then dont have the combination of speed and size to be really effective with this strategy.

So at the moment, it looks like our guys have no plan out there and are freewheeling for the most part. If something works they will stick with it until something go's wrong.

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01-04-2009, 08:36 AM
  #24
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I agree inferno. I've said all year this team is one 35 goal, powerforward away from being a cup contender. Dawes, Callahan, Dubinsky and Korpikoski were all drafted as 2 way player. It takes a while for guys like that to develop their offense in the NHL. Korpikoski last night looked more confident then I've ever seen him. He's on the verge of breaking thru with some offense.

The PP is an embarrassment. Even if this team is one scoring forward short, they need a new assistant coach to fix the PP. Pern has been inept. Reality is that if the Rangers can't trade Rosival for a scoring forward, they are going to have to part with either Sanguinetti or Del Zotto. I much prefer keeping Sanguinetti. He's close to making the NHL and he's got size.


Last edited by Duponttime*: 01-04-2009 at 08:57 AM.
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01-04-2009, 08:50 AM
  #25
hpNYR
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You must be insane if you think this team is as good as the previous few....

You have very border-line "legit" scorers who are one dimensional and not hall of fame calibur....Border-line in the sense that they have either been very streaky in their career or on the verge of becoming past their prime(naslund,Gomez,Drury, redden)

The difference is you have 2 guys last season(shanny,jagr) who were legit solidified hall of famers. They were not one dimensional. Both players have never been streaky in there careers, and even in this late stage of their careers they still know how to get it done. They can get it done by not only providing leadership, but also putting up numbers.

Personally coming into the season, and looking at what we have on paper I said this team would have a tough time making the play-offs and I said that we'd probably be fighting for 8,7-6 spot. However we have played a bit better then what I thought we would....partially b/c of the weaker opponents and Henrik's stellar performance at the start of the season.

I think we should seriously consider bringing back Sanny for a jolt for this season. I think it would really help for our push into the play-offs, and also would help in terms of scoring.


One guy that I try to be a fan of, but continously am reminded I shouldn't is Gomez. I just don't see what's so special about this guy. He's as one dimensional as they come. What is he w/out his speed? And even with the speed, how many give-aways or nice opportunities are we going to see thrown away w/ piss poor passing or puck management by Gomer? Eh, he needs to f'en play better.

and LOL.....Naslund...a HALL OF FAMER!!??! lol...


Last edited by hpNYR: 01-04-2009 at 09:35 AM.
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