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Briere update -- January 23 (post #584)

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Old
01-06-2009, 12:26 PM
  #26
mikedifr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Gagne-Richards-Briere
Hartnell-Carter-Lupul

What team outside of Detroit stops that top-6?

How about who stops the top 9???

Gagne Richards Knuble
Hartnell Carter Lupul
Upshall Briere Metro/Nodl/Giroux

Plus you are adding Briere to an already potent powerplay

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01-06-2009, 12:27 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by JXC View Post
Well stated.

As it turns out, it was not a good signing.
right, because it means we can't carry 9 dmen, and jones might go, heavens, JXC might have to change his avy

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01-06-2009, 12:28 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by kicksave27 View Post
right, because it means we can't carry 9 dmen, and jones might go, heavens, JXC might have to change his avy
JXC will always take the stupid side of the debate, just so he can rebel against the mainstream


He would probably tell you why he would rather have Randy Jones than Chris Pronger (discounting cap considerations)

Notice he doesnt say WHY it is a bad signing

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01-06-2009, 12:31 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
San Jose.
Yeah good call. Regardless though, that's still the best top-6 in the East for my money unless the Pens trade for a legit winger.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikedifr
How about who stops the top 9???

Gagne Richards Knuble
Hartnell Carter Lupul
Upshall Briere Metro/Nodl/Giroux

Plus you are adding Briere to an already potent powerplay
Eh, not really looking to put Briere at C, but that's a conversation for another day.

I was thinking during the game though, Knuble really is your slightly above average 3rd liner except for the fact that he has exceptional hands around the net, so why not just put him on the 3rd line?

His hands were never great, but they've definitely gotten a lot worse. He still has a lot of value, just not in a 1st line role for my money.

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01-06-2009, 12:35 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by opus View Post
Sure...Richards, Briere, Carter >>> Richards, Carter Metro as a top three. I'm talking dollars here though.

Also, have we really missed him? Sure he helps...but he's not necessary at this point in the game. Just my opinion.
Big part of the equation is what Flerys do with the 6 mln/yr savings... ie who would come back and what impact would he have?

So it'd be Richards-Carter-Briere vs Richards-Carter-XX ... with XX being who Phliiy gets back.

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01-06-2009, 12:37 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Yeah good call. Regardless though, that's still the best top-6 in the East for my money unless the Pens trade for a legit winger.



Eh, not really looking to put Briere at C, but that's a conversation for another day.

I was thinking during the game though, Knuble really is your slightly above average 3rd liner except for the fact that he has exceptional hands around the net, so why not just put him on the 3rd line?

His hands were never great, but they've definitely gotten a lot worse. He still has a lot of value, just not in a 1st line role for my money.
WHY? He's on pace to score 30 goals.

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01-06-2009, 12:41 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Yeah good call. Regardless though, that's still the best top-6 in the East for my money unless the Pens trade for a legit winger.



Eh, not really looking to put Briere at C, but that's a conversation for another day.

I was thinking during the game though, Knuble really is your slightly above average 3rd liner except for the fact that he has exceptional hands around the net, so why not just put him on the 3rd line?

His hands were never great, but they've definitely gotten a lot worse. He still has a lot of value, just not in a 1st line role for my money.
I agree with you in theory, problem is Knuble basically becomes useless on the third line with Metro as his center. If we had a better playmaking third line center that fit his style of play than I would be all for that. You get the most from Knuble playing him with Richards and Gagne.

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01-06-2009, 12:41 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rban View Post
WHY? He's on pace to score 30 goals.
Yeah, and probably 20 of those will be on the PP where he excels. He certainly performs an extremely valuable function, but I think our offense would be optimized by having him play less of a role at ES.

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01-06-2009, 12:42 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Yeah good call. Regardless though, that's still the best top-6 in the East for my money unless the Pens trade for a legit winger.



Eh, not really looking to put Briere at C, but that's a conversation for another day.

I was thinking during the game though, Knuble really is your slightly above average 3rd liner except for the fact that he has exceptional hands around the net, so why not just put him on the 3rd line?

His hands were never great, but they've definitely gotten a lot worse. He still has a lot of value, just not in a 1st line role for my money.
Knuble has good chemistry with Briere. Id put him on the 3rd line with Danny.

Its funny, most teams would love to have our "3rd line" as their 1st. Like, for real, which line is the 1st? Carters or Richies? lol. Its like Lines 1a, 1b, and 1c. We have an awesome problem here, which can be solved very easily.

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01-06-2009, 12:43 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by kicksave27 View Post
the flyers are a 3 line team again with briere. If you have a choice between jones(and any combination of spare part player) and briere, I'm taking briere every time.

It's pretty simple, they are over the cap because they got carle to replace jones, now jones is back, one of them has to go. I'm not sure how this turned into, hey lets trade briere instead. Danny is one of the best playoff point producers the last few years. Does everyone like metro that much?

People like Knuble and Lupul help make them a 3 line team. I am not at all confident that moving Lupul or Knuble and replacing them with Giroux is a good idea.

I think Knuble and Lupul must be kept if the logic is to maintain a potent 3-line scoring team. Find savings elsewhere: Jones, etc?

Trouble is: I believe Philly can either keep a 3-line team or get another good Dman..the team cannot do both.

To keep a 3-line team you cannot mess with any of the Top 7 forwards... or even Top 8 if you wanna rate Upshall that highly.

Metro OTOH is a more easily replaceable spare part. You could consider replacing Metro or even possibly Upshall with a Giroux.. but NOT Knuble or Lupul...IMHO.

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01-06-2009, 12:43 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by JXC View Post
Well stated.

As it turns out, it was not a good signing.
And Randy Jones at 3millions bucks was, right?

I hope he gets traded to atlanta.

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01-06-2009, 12:45 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDrizzle81 View Post
Knuble has good chemistry with Briere. Id put him on the 3rd line with Danny.

Its funny, most teams would love to have our "3rd line" as their 1st. Like, for real, which line is the 1st? Carters or Richies? lol. Its like Lines 1a, 1b, and 1c. We have an awesome problem here, which can be solved very easily.
Knuble does NOT have good chemistry with Briere....Did you watch last season??? That was one of our issues.

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01-06-2009, 12:46 PM
  #38
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They had to put Knuble on Carter's line because Knuble couldn't keep up with him.

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01-06-2009, 12:47 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDrizzle81 View Post
Knuble has good chemistry with Briere. Id put him on the 3rd line with Danny.

Its funny, most teams would love to have our "3rd line" as their 1st. Like, for real, which line is the 1st? Carters or Richies? lol. Its like Lines 1a, 1b, and 1c. We have an awesome problem here, which can be solved very easily.
Very close, I would actually put Richards and Carter as 1a and 1b, and Briere as a Number 2 ... but it is a close call.

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01-06-2009, 12:47 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rban View Post
People like Knuble and Lupul help make them a 3 line team. I am not at all confident that moving Lupul or Knuble and replacing them with Giroux is a good idea.

I think Knuble and Lupul must be kept if the logic is to maintain a potent 3-line scoring team. Find savings elsewhere: Jones, etc?

Trouble is: I believe Philly can either keep a 3-line team or get another good Dman..the team cannot do both.

To keep a 3-line team you cannot mess with any of the Top 7 forwards... or even Top 8 if you wanna rate Upshall that highly.

Metro OTOH is a more easily replaceable spare part. You could consider replacing Metro or even possibly Upshall with a Giroux.. but NOT Knuble or Lupul...IMHO.
Trade Jones. Call up Parent.

Kimmo-Coburn
Ossi-Carle
Parent-Sbisa/Alberts/Kukkonen

Thats a decent Defensive group.

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01-06-2009, 12:49 PM
  #41
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is this even a topic if he had remained healthy this season? 5 goals and 4 assists in 9 games.
We are a better team with him, wouldnt you like to have him against the Caps tonight instead of Andreas Nodl?
Is he overpaid? Of course he is. But the guy is clutch. Period. He scored some big goals for this team down the stretch last season and in the playoffs. He stepped up when his team needed him.

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01-06-2009, 12:50 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by TheDrizzle81 View Post
Trade Jones. Call up Parent.

Kimmo-Coburn
Ossi-Carle
Parent-Sbisa/Alberts/Kukkonen

Thats a decent Defensive group.
Decent but can be improved. Kimmo is the only one I would call a real star, with Coburn as a future star but not there yet.

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01-06-2009, 12:51 PM
  #43
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Well, lets see if I can stir the pot a little more with this. What if the Flyers had won the lottery and we got the #1 pick and not the #2 pick??? Reports now say that we'd have taken Patric Kane, a very talented center. Even back then Kane was expected to be a true #1 center in the making. There would be no way we'd keep Briere, Richards, Carter and Kane as our 4 centers so who would go. Would we NOT sign Briere knowing Kane was coming??? Would we have signed Briere and have traded Carter last year??? Hmmm, just imagine a top 3 of Richards, Carter and Kane for the next 10 years. Imagine having another 6 mil ro spend on our defense this season.

If the money were to work out about the same (and I think they'd be pretty close) which would you rather have of thse 2:

1) Richards, Carter and Kane at center, Lupul at wing, and a top 4 of Timonen, Coburn, Carle and J-Bo (signed in the off-season)

or

2) Briere, Richards and Carter at center, JVR at wing, and a top 4 of Timonen, Coburn, Carle and Jones/Parent

I know it's not as easy as this but even if we don't sign J-Bo we'd have had around 6 mil to sign antoher top quality dman, maybe someone like Campbell.

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01-06-2009, 12:53 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by FireStevensDotCom View Post
is this even a topic if he had remained healthy this season? 5 goals and 4 assists in 9 games.
We are a better team with him, wouldnt you like to have him against the Caps tonight instead of Andreas Nodl?
Is he overpaid? Of course he is. But the guy is clutch. Period. He scored some big goals for this team down the stretch last season and in the playoffs. He stepped up when his team needed him.
I think there are only 2 reasons this is being discussed:

1. Coburn will need to be re-signed and will need a raise;

2. There is a widespread feeling (that I share) that the defense is one piece short of being truly world-class... and it'll take at least 5-6 mln/yr to fill that piece.

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01-06-2009, 12:58 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by TheDrizzle81 View Post
Trade Jones. Call up Parent.

Kimmo-Coburn
Ossi-Carle
Parent-Sbisa/Alberts/Kukkonen

Thats a decent Defensive group.
This is going to sound stupid, but part of our issue with the cap has to do with Steven's blatant refusal to play Kukkonen.....He is easily good enough to be a 6th dman and certainly good enough to be our 7th if we intend to carry that 7th on the NHL roster. Sbisa is here and doesnt appear like he is going to be sent back to juniors so he should be playing, and playing defense not forward. With Carle here Jones has to go. If we still need to clear cap space, it has to be Alberts

This is by no means based on their talent level or their quality of play but I think Jones and maybe Alberts have to be let go at this point, but that can only happen if the baffoon is willing to play kukkonen as #6 or #7

Your top 4 is easily Coburn, Timonen, Carle, Vaananen. I think Sbisa needs to play so he is essentially #5. That leaves #6 as either $2.7 million Jones, $1.5 million Alberts or Kukkonen.

This doesnt count Hatcher, does anyone think he is coming back for the playoffs or not???

Quote:
Originally Posted by FireStevensDotCom View Post
is this even a topic if he had remained healthy this season? 5 goals and 4 assists in 9 games.
We are a better team with him, wouldnt you like to have him against the Caps tonight instead of Andreas Nodl?
Is he overpaid? Of course he is. But the guy is clutch. Period. He scored some big goals for this team down the stretch last season and in the playoffs. He stepped up when his team needed him.
Well said

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01-06-2009, 01:03 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by rban View Post
I think there are only 2 reasons this is being discussed:

1. Coburn will need to be re-signed and will need a raise;

2. There is a widespread feeling (that I share) that the defense is one piece short of being truly world-class... and it'll take at least 5-6 mln/yr to fill that piece.
I dont necessarily disagree with this, but making this defense world class could be an upgrade on Carle, couldnt it???

Nothing is going to happen this year with Briere or an upgrade to the defense, so lets talk next year.

Coburn/Timonen are set as your top pairing. I am perfectly happy with some kind of combination of Sbisa/Parent/Vaananen as your bottom 3. Its that #3 guy. Carle may get much better, he may not. But if you are getting another elite dman like a Jbo or someone along those lines, I think you could replace Carle and he is making $3.5 to begin with so that would go towards the $6-7 million for a Jbo.

I dont think you will ever have enough money to re-sign Coburn and add another elite dman in addition to Carle without seriously depleting your forwards.

2-3 years down the road when Giroux/JVR are true top 6 players (hopefully) that can be relied on maybe, however, right now you have your top line and Carter, and then you have very streaky guys offensively like Lupul and Hartnell rounding out your top 6. I dont think you can afford to lose the clutch offensive play of Briere at this point.

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01-06-2009, 01:08 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikedifr View Post
This is going to sound stupid, but part of our issue with the cap has to do with Steven's blatant refusal to play Kukkonen.....He is easily good enough to be a 6th dman and certainly good enough to be our 7th if we intend to carry that 7th on the NHL roster. Sbisa is here and doesnt appear like he is going to be sent back to juniors so he should be playing, and playing defense not forward. With Carle here Jones has to go. If we still need to clear cap space, it has to be Alberts

This is by no means based on their talent level or their quality of play but I think Jones and maybe Alberts have to be let go at this point, but that can only happen if the baffoon is willing to play kukkonen as #6 or #7

Your top 4 is easily Coburn, Timonen, Carle, Vaananen. I think Sbisa needs to play so he is essentially #5. That leaves #6 as either $2.7 million Jones, $1.5 million Alberts or Kukkonen.

This doesnt count Hatcher, does anyone think he is coming back for the playoffs or not???



Well said
Lasse is a solid player, I dont understand John's beef with him, he blocks more shots than an average goalie, lol.

Id like to see Sbisa go to juniors but he isnt.

I doubt Hatch comes back at all. I hope not for the caps sake.

Parent is still there and I feel a very solid player if they do go that route

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01-06-2009, 01:08 PM
  #48
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Briere is more firepower to an already offensively talented team. It's obvious that Giroux shouldn't be a 2nd liner (yet), but he was. With Briere in the line-up, that doesn't happen. With Briere we have someone we can rely on to score goals. With Giroux we were hoping he would score. Briere can be deadly on the PP, which, like someone said before me, is already potent. Not dogging Giroux by any stretch of the imagination because I think he is great for this organization. Just using him for comparison at this point.

This team needs Briere. The salary is a little ridiculous, but if you trade him and get squat in return, you'll be wanting him back.

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01-06-2009, 01:10 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rban View Post
I think there are only 2 reasons this is being discussed:

1. Coburn will need to be re-signed and will need a raise;

2. There is a widespread feeling (that I share) that the defense is one piece short of being truly world-class... and it'll take at least 5-6 mln/yr to fill that piece.
1. Coburn is signed at a 1.3 million cap hit thru 09/10

2. I think when healthy the defense is still pretty good. Might even be the best 1-6 in the Atlantic when healthy. Who do you trade for Bouwmeester? Probably not going to happen now with our biggest trade chip at forward(Lupul) out with what could be a serious injury.
Trading for a defenseman like Bouwmeester is a huge risk. IMO he is going to want to test free agency and get that Brian Campbell type contract.

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01-06-2009, 01:11 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikedifr View Post
2-3 years down the road when Giroux/JVR are true top 6 players (hopefully) that can be relied on maybe, however, right now you have your top line and Carter, and then you have very streaky guys offensively like Lupul and Hartnell rounding out your top 6. I dont think you can afford to lose the clutch offensive play of Briere at this point.
Exactly. If he was making less money and healthy, this thread doesn't exists and we shrug off his defensive liability (for the most part).

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