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Briere update -- January 23 (post #584)

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01-06-2009, 01:11 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by mikedifr View Post
No, not going to trade Richards or Carter obvously but I will trade Lupul, I will trade Jones and I will let Alberts and Knuble go after this year. 6.5 cap hit for someone the caliber of Briere is not a lot (I bet NY would trade Gomez for him right now) and until Giroux, JVR, potentially Nodl are all a couple years into their careers and true top 6 scorers, we need Briere.

Lets use NJ as an example....We play them in the playoffs and Holik does a great job on Carter and Madden does a great job on Richards.....You still have Briere than can carry you. Lets say Madden stops Briere and Holik stops Richards...you still have Carter.

See the point.
Of course I see the point, what's not to see?

When I talk about Briere...I strictly don't like the ramifications that his contract is causing with the salary cap.

On the team and in the lineup, of course were better with him...he helps us with three complete lines of scoring.

I'm talking cap.

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01-06-2009, 01:36 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by kicksave27 View Post
right, because it means we can't carry 9 dmen, and jones might go, heavens, JXC might have to change his avy
No it means we may not be able to carry six defensemen.

It was a bad signing because 18 and 17 have become as good as Briere. We'd be better off today with Mike Peca at on third the cost. Of course, this is only apparent in retrospect.

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01-06-2009, 01:39 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by JXC View Post
No it means we may not be able to carry six defensemen.

It was a bad signing because 18 and 17 have become as good as Briere. We'd be better off today with Mike Peca at on third the cost. Of course, this is only apparent in retrospect.
Mike Peca?
really man? come on. Peca freakin sucks. Id rather have a kid from the Phantoms then Peca.

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01-06-2009, 01:45 PM
  #54
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Lasse is a solid player, I dont understand John's beef with him, he blocks more shots than an average goalie, lol.

Id like to see Sbisa go to juniors but he isnt.

I doubt Hatch comes back at all. I hope not for the caps sake.

Parent is still there and I feel a very solid player if they do go that route
I dont mind Sbisa going back to juniors either, but if he is going to stay here he should play, not ride the pine. I would be fine with Parent playing on the third pairing as well

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01-06-2009, 01:46 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FireStevensDotCom View Post
Mike Peca?
really man? come on. Peca freakin sucks. Id rather have a kid from the Phantoms then Peca.
Peca sucks so bad that Columbus wants rid of him.

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01-06-2009, 01:48 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Pwood View Post
Briere is more firepower to an already offensively talented team. It's obvious that Giroux shouldn't be a 2nd liner (yet), but he was. With Briere in the line-up, that doesn't happen. With Briere we have someone we can rely on to score goals. With Giroux we were hoping he would score. Briere can be deadly on the PP, which, like someone said before me, is already potent. Not dogging Giroux by any stretch of the imagination because I think he is great for this organization. Just using him for comparison at this point.

This team needs Briere. The salary is a little ridiculous, but if you trade him and get squat in return, you'll be wanting him back.
That was basically the same point was trying to make when saying if Giroux and JVR were here and true top 6 guys to rely on, I might entertain the idea of moving Briere, but right now we need him.

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01-06-2009, 01:51 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by opus View Post
Of course I see the point, what's not to see?

When I talk about Briere...I strictly don't like the ramifications that his contract is causing with the salary cap.

On the team and in the lineup, of course were better with him...he helps us with three complete lines of scoring.

I'm talking cap.
Cap is obviously a big concern, and I dont think 6.5 is a terrible hit for someone like Briere (if healthy obviously) Lupul, Jones, Alberts, Knuble, Asham, Metro are all guys I move before Briere.

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01-06-2009, 01:52 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by JXC View Post
No it means we may not be able to carry six defensemen.

It was a bad signing because 18 and 17 have become as good as Briere. We'd be better off today with Mike Peca at on third the cost. Of course, this is only apparent in retrospect.
We can carry six....Timonen, Coburn, Carle, Vaananen, Kukkonen, Sbisa....maybe even 7 with Parent or Alberts if his money doesnt need to be moved as well.

Your boy has to go, sorry.

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01-06-2009, 01:53 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Pwood View Post
Peca sucks so bad that Columbus wants rid of him.
Seriously....If you want to bring in Peca as a 4th center for a playoff run I wouldnt mind, but I rather have Metro as #3 and I DONT want Metro as #3

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01-06-2009, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Gagne-Richards-Briere
Hartnell-Carter-Lupul

What team outside of Detroit stops that top-6?
That isn't our top 6 though, and even when Briere gets back, it still won't be.

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01-06-2009, 02:00 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by FireStevensDotCom View Post
Mike Peca?
really man? come on. Peca freakin sucks. Id rather have a kid from the Phantoms then Peca.
Overboard.

I'm not saying he's better than Briere, I am saying the Flyers would be better off with him on a third line and $4,500,000 to spend elsewhere.

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Peca sucks so bad that Columbus wants rid of him.
Hmmmm I hadn't heard that.

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01-06-2009, 02:08 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikedifr View Post
Your boy has to go, sorry.
That's okay with Jones though. If he has to go somewhere else, so be it.

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Originally Posted by JXC View Post
Hmmmm I hadn't heard that.
It's in a lot of GDTs of the Blue Jackets.

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01-06-2009, 02:13 PM
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sigh.. half the guys here that say that they wish we didnt sign Briere act like they knew last year Richards was going to come out of no where and play amazingly. No we didnt know that. We needed a legit first line center to play with Gags and at the time Knuble. With the departure of Forsberg, we did not have a #1 center.

Now we get Briere, he comes in and plays for us. He signs for a long deal hopefully to stay here and make the Flyers a better team. He gets a big contract cause at the time other teams were looking toget him also. Homer see's this and decides that Briere is the better choice over Gomez and Drury. Briere in the end will lead us through the playoffs like he did last year. Then we will hear how we all love Briere.

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01-06-2009, 02:19 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by mikedifr View Post
Seriously....If you want to bring in Peca as a 4th center for a playoff run I wouldnt mind, but I rather have Metro as #3 and I DONT want Metro as #3
there is no way Peca could do more then Metropolit has for the money. While maybe Metropolit hasnt been great, he is better then Peca at this point.

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01-06-2009, 02:22 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
sigh.. half the guys here that say that they wish we didnt sign Briere act like they knew last year Richards was going to come out of no where and play amazingly. No we didnt know that. We needed a legit first line center to play with Gags and at the time Knuble. With the departure of Forsberg, we did not have a #1 center.

Now we get Briere, he comes in and plays for us. He signs for a long deal hopefully to stay here and make the Flyers a better team. He gets a big contract cause at the time other teams were looking toget him also. Homer see's this and decides that Briere is the better choice over Gomez and Drury. Briere in the end will lead us through the playoffs like he did last year. Then we will hear how we all love Briere.
Let's not forget how he much he helped while Gagne was out for a season. No way we even make it to the playoffs without him.

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01-06-2009, 02:22 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by mikedifr View Post
Cap is obviously a big concern, and I dont think 6.5 is a terrible hit for someone like Briere (if healthy obviously) Lupul, Jones, Alberts, Knuble, Asham, Metro are all guys I move before Briere.
Of course it is, and right now...it's the vice that squeezes this teams apple bag. Were so cap strapped we can't even call up AHL'ers to fill in for injured players...that's just brutal if you ask me.

I'm not saying Briere at 6.5 is bad. It's pretty good value. I've admitted that and agree with you whole heartedly. And yes, I am well aware his contributions last season...both regular season and playoffs. I just feel he's not completely necessary for this team to be successful with the way Richards and Carter have progressed.

As for your list of players you'd trade, that's all fine and dandy...but we've proven we can compete and win without Danny Boy. I think it would be irresponsible to trade three players to make up the same amount cap space as it would one. More holes to fill, obviously.

Either way, it's all just chat and more so...wasted bandwidth as Briere and his contract are going nowehere.

It's just mid-day banter.

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01-06-2009, 02:23 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by FireStevensDotCom View Post
there is no way Peca could do more then Metropolit has for the money. While maybe Metropolit hasnt been great, he is better then Peca at this point.
Not saying he would, hence why I said I rather have Metro. Point being, if Briere was on the wing, Metro is #3 so who plays #4 center? Powe? Kalinski? Kukkonen? Sbisa?

If that were the case, I would be fine with bringing in Peca to be #4 for a playoff run, but he should be no where near being the #3 center for this team which is where I think JXC was implying, in place of Briere.

Sorry, I kinda combined two thoughts there

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01-06-2009, 02:30 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by opus View Post
Of course it is, and right now...it's the vice that squeezes this teams apple bag. Were so cap strapped we can't even call up AHL'ers to fill in for injured players...that's just brutal if you ask me.

I'm not saying Briere at 6.5 is bad. It's pretty good value. I've admitted that and agree with you whole heartedly. And yes, I am well aware his contributions last season...both regular season and playoffs. I just feel he's not completely necessary for this team to be successful with the way Richards and Carter have progressed.

As for your list of players you'd trade, that's all fine and dandy...but we've proven we can compete and win without Danny Boy. I think it would be irresponsible to trade three players to make up the same amount cap space as it would one. More holes to fill, obviously.

Either way, it's all just chat and more so...wasted bandwidth as Briere and his contract are going nowehere.

It's just mid-day banter.
I see your point, but who takes on that 6.5 mil cap hit if he were to waive his NTC? I don't see many teams doing that.

Furthermore, it's not that we need him because, like you said, Carter and Richards have progressed greatly and we're making it without him, but if you add him to a mix of scorers like Gagne, Carter, Richards, Hartnell (has done pretty nicely this season, and often in crucial moments of the game), and Lupul (who is also a target for trade rumors) you have a damn fine top 6.

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01-06-2009, 02:32 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by opus View Post
Of course it is, and right now...it's the vice that squeezes this teams apple bag. Were so cap strapped we can't even call up AHL'ers to fill in for injured players...that's just brutal if you ask me.

I'm not saying Briere at 6.5 is bad. It's pretty good value. I've admitted that and agree with you whole heartedly. And yes, I am well aware his contributions last season...both regular season and playoffs. I just feel he's not completely necessary for this team to be successful with the way Richards and Carter have progressed.

As for your list of players you'd trade, that's all fine and dandy...but we've proven we can compete and win without Danny Boy. I think it would be irresponsible to trade three players to make up the same amount cap space as it would one. More holes to fill, obviously.

Either way, it's all just chat and more so...wasted bandwidth as Briere and his contract are going nowehere.

It's just mid-day banter.
I agree its mid day banter.....just having a friendly debate.....and I agree that we have shown over the last couple weeks, months whatever that we can play pretty well without Danny when we have two hot lines (Gagne/Richards/Knuble and Hartnell/Carter/Lupul), but that is the regular season against some subpar teams during that span.

Wat happens if Carter comes back down to earth and starts scoringat a 25-30 goal per season pace again as opposed to 50???

Are you willing to completely rely on Hartnell and Lupul in your top 6 come playoff time, two guys that have shown to be really, really streaky that didnt score much in the playoffs last year???

Are you willing to risk that Meto, Asham, Upshall are going to give us enough additional scoring come playoff time?

Two to 3 years from now I might be 100% in agreement with you that Briere is no longer needed on this team when we have a potential top 6 of proven consistent performers (Giroux, JVR, Nodl, etc), but right now, I dont think we have enough top 6 guys to rely on scoring in the playoffs without Briere.

Now if you tell me we are trading Briere for Chris Pronger that might be a different story, but then you are still in the same boat a couple years from now when Coburn needs to be re-signed, Carter is coming up, and Giroux/JVR are coming up on their 2nd contract.

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01-06-2009, 02:32 PM
  #70
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sigh.. half the guys here that say that they wish we didnt sign Briere act like they knew last year Richards was going to come out of no where and play amazingly. No we didnt know that. We needed a legit first line center to play with Gags and at the time Knuble. With the departure of Forsberg, we did not have a #1 center.

Now we get Briere, he comes in and plays for us. He signs for a long deal hopefully to stay here and make the Flyers a better team. He gets a big contract cause at the time other teams were looking toget him also. Homer see's this and decides that Briere is the better choice over Gomez and Drury. Briere in the end will lead us through the playoffs like he did last year. Then we will hear how we all love Briere.
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Let's not forget how he much he helped while Gagne was out for a season. No way we even make it to the playoffs without him.
Last year...was last year. This year Jeff Carter has turned into one of the best goal scorers in the league.

While it's certainly true to note that the situation was different 2 summers ago, thus the justification for signing Briere...it's also implicitly acknowledging that things have changed over time. Briere is a good player. However, the salary cap means you can't have all the good players you want to have...you gotta make hard decisions.

Briere is going nowhere, but we can be a better team without him and using his 6.5M elsewhere. We don't need three centers eating up $18 million of salary cap.

And pay attention to what is being proposed to make Briere fit under the salary cap. It's gutting all these support guys.

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Originally Posted by mikedifr View Post
Now if you tell me we are trading Briere for Chris Pronger that might be a different story, but then you are still in the same boat a couple years from now when Coburn needs to be re-signed, Carter is coming up, and Giroux/JVR are coming up on their 2nd contract.
Briere coming back puts us $4 million over the salary cap. We can't get any returns for ANY of our players when we cut deals. We have to trade for picks and prospects.

Right now we're screwed with Briere (an unnecessary player for this squad).

Two years from now? We're ****ed.

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01-06-2009, 02:37 PM
  #71
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Last year...was last year. This year Jeff Carter has turned into one of the best goal scorers in the league.

While it's certainly true to note that the situation was different 2 summers ago, thus the justification for signing Briere...it's also implicitly acknowledging that things have changed over time. Briere is a good player. However, the salary cap means you can't have all the good players you want to have...you gotta make hard decisions.

Briere is going nowhere, but we can be a better team without him and using his 6.5M elsewhere. We don't need three centers eating up $18 million of salary cap.

And pay attention to what is being proposed to make Briere fit under the salary cap. It's gutting all these support guys.



Briere coming back puts us $4 million over the salary cap. We can't get any returns for ANY of our players when we cut deals. We have to trade for picks and prospects.

Right now we're screwed with Briere (an unnecessary player for this squad).

Two years from now? We're ****ed.
Jester, the problem is that the way this team is constructed, and the way this team plays currently, I think we do need those 3 centers to be our best. I think that is the strength of this team as constructed. I dont disagree that you dont need to spend that much on 3 players at one position.

If you tell me that we are trading Briere's salary for

1) a much better 3rd line center than Metro,
2) another good 2nd pairing dman to play with Carle or an upgrade on Carle,
3) AND more in our top 6 than Gagne Richards Carter that we can truly rely on for scoring, than I would agree with you. (Hartnell/Lupul to me are still borderline excellent 3rd line/decent 2 line guys at this point....How much did they score in the playoffs last year????)

Add to this that one of our top 6 guys really isnt a top 6 guy at even strength (Knuble) and I dont think you can afford to move Briere yet.

I still think you need to be sure Giroux/JVR are true top 6 winger that can be relied upon, or you need another top 6 guy in return for Briere, but then why move him to begin with???

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01-06-2009, 02:39 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Last year...was last year. This year Jeff Carter has turned into one of the best goal scorers in the league.

While it's certainly true to note that the situation was different 2 summers ago, thus the justification for signing Briere...it's also implicitly acknowledging that things have changed over time. Briere is a good player. However, the salary cap means you can't have all the good players you want to have...you gotta make hard decisions.

Briere is going nowhere, but we can be a better team without him and using his 6.5M elsewhere. We don't need three centers eating up $18 million of salary cap.

And pay attention to what is being proposed to make Briere fit under the salary cap. It's gutting all these support guys.



Briere coming back puts us $4 million over the salary cap. We can't get any returns for ANY of our players when we cut deals. We have to trade for picks and prospects.

Right now we're screwed with Briere (an unnecessary player for this squad).

Two years from now? We're ****ed.
I was only commenting on the people who stated that Briere was a waste of money at the time. People made it sound like they knew Richards was gonna be great and put up a 75 point season, right after his 32 one.

Would I trade Briere for a top defender if the chance came by? Absolutely.

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01-06-2009, 02:41 PM
  #73
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I agree its mid day banter.....just having a friendly debate.....and I agree that we have shown over the last couple weeks, months whatever that we can play pretty well without Danny when we have two hot lines (Gagne/Richards/Knuble and Hartnell/Carter/Lupul), but that is the regular season against some subpar teams during that span.

Wat happens if Carter comes back down to earth and starts scoringat a 25-30 goal per season pace again as opposed to 50???

Are you willing to completely rely on Hartnell and Lupul in your top 6 come playoff time, two guys that have shown to be really, really streaky that didnt score much in the playoffs last year???

Are you willing to risk that Meto, Asham, Upshall are going to give us enough additional scoring come playoff time?

Two to 3 years from now I might be 100% in agreement with you that Briere is no longer needed on this team when we have a potential top 6 of proven consistent performers (Giroux, JVR, Nodl, etc), but right now, I dont think we have enough top 6 guys to rely on scoring in the playoffs without Briere.

Now if you tell me we are trading Briere for Chris Pronger that might be a different story, but then you are still in the same boat a couple years from now when Coburn needs to be re-signed, Carter is coming up, and Giroux/JVR are coming up on their 2nd contract.
Honestly...I don't want anybody back for briere other than a pick and prospect at this point. We shouldn't be in a position to force players to rush back from injuries because were tighter than a Nuns box. Not to mention we have prospect whom we all expect big things from that will need contracts.

Seriously, were so screwed it's not even funny.

Sure you can trade Lupul, Jones, Knuble etc...but they are the work horses that complete a team. One player doesn't complete a team.

Just my $.02

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I see your point, but who takes on that 6.5 mil cap hit if he were to waive his NTC? I don't see many teams doing that.

Furthermore, it's not that we need him because, like you said, Carter and Richards have progressed greatly and we're making it without him, but if you add him to a mix of scorers like Gagne, Carter, Richards, Hartnell (has done pretty nicely this season, and often in crucial moments of the game), and Lupul (who is also a target for trade rumors) you have a damn fine top 6.
Nobody, because right now for the time being...he's going nowehere. Hence my frustration.

Heh, you can make the arguement that if we traded all our defense and landed Kovalchuk we'd outscore everybody and blow them out of the water...so what? We don't have a balanced team...were too center heavy.

We have young prospect that we'll need to resign...and a goalie.

Look at the big picture.

A well balanced team (forwards-defense-goalie) will always beat a top heavy (forwards) team.

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01-06-2009, 02:43 PM
  #74
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Honestly...I don't want anybody back for briere other than a pick and prospect at this point. We shouldn't be in a position to force players to rush back from injuries because were tighter than a Nuns box. Not to mention we have prospect whom we all expect big things from that will need contracts.

Seriously, were so screwed it's not even funny.

Sure you can trade Lupul, Jones, Knuble etc...but they are the work horses that complete a team. One player doesn't complete a team.

Just my $.02
I think those three players can be easily replaced, hopefully next year by our young ones in Giroux, JVR, and Sbisa. On the other hand, who do we have to replace Briere? Metro?

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01-06-2009, 02:44 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by opus View Post
Honestly...I don't want anybody back for briere other than a pick and prospect at this point. We shouldn't be in a position to force players to rush back from injuries because were tighter than a Nuns box. Not to mention we have prospect whom we all expect big things from that will need contracts.

Seriously, were so screwed it's not even funny.

Sure you can trade Lupul, Jones, Knuble etc...but they are the work horses that complete a team. One player doesn't complete a team.

Just my $.02
One player does not complete a team, I definitely agree....however, Jones can easily be replaced by Parent or Kukkonen with Carle here.

Lupul can be replaced by Giroux/JVR.....If Briere is being moved, somone needs to replace those 75+ points he will give us when healthy. Like I mentioned to Jester in my previous post, If I am trying to win a cup, I want more than Gagne, Richards and Carter that I can truly rely on in my top 6. Hartnell/Lupul are not there in my opinion and Knuble is not that guy at even strength.

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