HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Philadelphia Flyers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Briere update -- January 23 (post #584)

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
01-06-2009, 02:44 PM
  #76
Spongolium*
Potato Magician
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Bridgend,UK
Country: Wales
Posts: 8,653
vCash: 500
We are all ******** on briere. But without him we didn't start a rebuild that took us to the conferance final

Spongolium* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2009, 02:45 PM
  #77
mikedifr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 8,359
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
I think those three players can be easily replaced, hopefully next year by ur young ones in Giroux, JVR, and Sbisa. On the other hand, who do we have to replace Briere? Metro?
Exactly.

mikedifr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2009, 02:45 PM
  #78
Amateur Hour
Registered User
 
Amateur Hour's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Negadelphia
Posts: 6,507
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JXC View Post
No it means we may not be able to carry six defensemen.

It was a bad signing because 18 and 17 have become as good as Briere. We'd be better off today with Mike Peca at on third the cost. Of course, this is only apparent in retrospect.
Hindsight is always 20/20. The bottom line remains, the Flyers went into the '07 off-season NEEDING to make a splash after that horrendous '06/'07 campaign. Standing pat was just not going to happen, especially given how this team has always operated. I'm sure the front office also envisioned it taking a couple more seasons for Richards and Carter to really break out the way they have. Despite his contract, Briere is still an elite talent who can help this team. With him in the lineup, Stevens has the option of fielding three dangerous scoring lines that will make the opposition pick its poison.

Gagne-Richards-Knuble
Hartnell-Carter-Lupul
Upshall-Briere-Giroux (going for speed and skill, but this line's probably too small, right?)
Cote-Metropolit-Asham

Amateur Hour is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2009, 02:47 PM
  #79
mikedifr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 8,359
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amateur Hour View Post
Hindsight is always 20/20. The bottom line remains, the Flyers went into the '07 off-season NEEDING to make a splash after that horrendous '06/'07 campaign. Standing pat was just not going to happen, especially given how this team has always operated. I'm sure the front office also envisioned it taking a couple more seasons for Richards and Carter to really break out the way they have. Despite his contract, Briere is still an elite talent who can help this team. With him in the lineup, we have three bona fide scoring lines that will make the opposition pick its poison.

Gagne-Richards-Knuble
Hartnell-Carter-Lupul
Upshall-Briere-Giroux (going for speed and skill, but this line's probably too small, right?)
Cote-Metropolit-Cote
That line is not too small in my opinion. They will probably always be going against the other teams 3rd best defensive line so their speed might kill other teams. I still would like to see Upshall and Hartnell swapped though, if that 2nd line cools off.

mikedifr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2009, 02:49 PM
  #80
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
I think those three players can be easily replaced, hopefully next year by our young ones in Giroux, JVR, and Sbisa. On the other hand, who do we have to replace Briere? Metro?
You're missing the very point.

We don't need to replace Briere.

As of today, we are 5th in the league in scoring. We have the no. 1 PP in the league. And that's with Briere only playing in 8 full games or whatever.

What does Briere improve on teams he plays with? Scoring and the PP. We don't really need much help there.

As of today, we are 23rd in the league in team defense.

What does Briere hurt on the teams he plays with? Defensively he's atrocious.

This team does not need a player of Briere's ilk. We need to invest more in support guys who play well defensively, either at forward or on defense itself. And that's before factoring in the contracts of JVR, Giroux, and everyone else going forward.

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2009, 02:51 PM
  #81
FlyHigh
Registered User
 
FlyHigh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 28,156
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to FlyHigh Send a message via MSN to FlyHigh
Jester you are playing both sides of the coin here (again).

In one thread, you drone on about how elite our offense is.

In another thread, you drone on about how easy our schedule is and how our record doesn't mean anything. So when we play tougher teams, it will be harder to score goals.

So which one is it? Is our offense elite without Briere or are we just playing a patsy schedule?

You can't have it both ways.

FlyHigh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2009, 02:55 PM
  #82
mikedifr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 8,359
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
You're missing the very point.

We don't need to replace Briere.

As of today, we are 5th in the league in scoring. We have the no. 1 PP in the league. And that's with Briere only playing in 8 full games or whatever.

What does Briere improve on teams he plays with? Scoring and the PP. We don't really need much help there.

As of today, we are 23rd in the league in team defense.

What does Briere hurt on the teams he plays with? Defensively he's atrocious.

This team does not need a player of Briere's ilk. We need to invest more in support guys who play well defensively, either at forward or on defense itself. And that's before factoring in the contracts of JVR, Giroux, and everyone else going forward.
That is without Briere, so much for him being the reason our team defense stinks.....(not that I am saying you made that claim)

If you are comfortable relying on Knuble, Hartnell, Lupul for top 6 scoring in the playoffs than fine.....we dont need Briere....I for one am not confident in anyone other than Gagne/Richards/Carter to score when we need to come playoff time and I still want to see Carter keep up this pace for the whole season and through the playoffs before I am willing to call him the next coming of Christ......although they do share the same initials

You know as well as I do, this team went through some really, really hot stretches last year and then when it came back down to earth we struggled, with or without Briere.

And what happens if JVR and Giroux end up being third line players that dont offer much offense (highly unlikely I know)....We will then regret not having Briere here.

mikedifr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2009, 02:57 PM
  #83
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Jester you are playing both sides of the coin here (again).

In one thread, you drone on about how elite our offense is.

In another thread, you drone on about how easy our schedule is and how our record doesn't mean anything. So when we play tougher teams, it will be harder to score goals.

So which one is it? Is our offense elite without Briere or are we just playing a patsy schedule?

You can't have it both ways.
Does it not occur to you that you can have a really good offense AND be taking advantage of a good schedule to get wins?

That really good teams will score a bit more against us, which will take advantage of our defense to the point that our scoring won't be able to make up for it more?

If you really think good offense, and easy schedule equating to a good record are mutually exclusive...that's some shallow thinking on your part.

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2009, 02:58 PM
  #84
Opus
Registered User
 
Opus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Kingston
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,920
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post

This team does not need a player of Briere's ilk. We need to invest more in support guys who play well defensively, either at forward or on defense itself. And that's before factoring in the contracts of JVR, Giroux, and everyone else going forward.


...including goaltending.

Opus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2009, 03:00 PM
  #85
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikedifr View Post
That is without Briere, so much for him being the reason our team defense stinks.....(not that I am saying you made that claim)

If you are comfortable relying on Knuble, Hartnell, Lupul for top 6 scoring in the playoffs than fine.....we dont need Briere....I for one am not confident in anyone other than Gagne/Richards/Carter to score when we need to come playoff time and I still want to see Carter keep up this pace for the whole season and through the playoffs before I am willing to call him the next coming of Christ......although they do share the same initials

You know as well as I do, this team went through some really, really hot stretches last year and then when it came back down to earth we struggled, with or without Briere.
You're citing three guys capable of 30 goals in the NHL.

Yes, I'm comfortable with those guys filling out our top 6.

Briere isn't the reason we struggle defensively, but he gets exposed BADLY when he doesn't have a team around him that can shield him from his liabilities.

EDIT: and looking forward...Briere is going to be a primary cause for our inability to invest in players who can help us defensively.

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2009, 03:00 PM
  #86
mikedifr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 8,359
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Jester you are playing both sides of the coin here (again).

In one thread, you drone on about how elite our offense is.

In another thread, you drone on about how easy our schedule is and how our record doesn't mean anything. So when we play tougher teams, it will be harder to score goals.

So which one is it? Is our offense elite without Briere or are we just playing a patsy schedule?

You can't have it both ways.
Agreed

mikedifr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2009, 03:04 PM
  #87
FlyHigh
Registered User
 
FlyHigh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 28,156
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to FlyHigh Send a message via MSN to FlyHigh
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Does it not occur to you that you can have a really good offense AND be taking advantage of a good schedule to get wins?

That really good teams will score a bit more against us, which will take advantage of our defense to the point that our scoring won't be able to make up for it more?

If you really think good offense, and easy schedule equating to a good record are mutually exclusive...that's some shallow thinking on your part.
Pick one or the other. And even in your post, I notice you refrain from using the word 'elite.'

I personally think that playing elite teams like Boston, MTL, San Jose, Detroit, the NJD, WSH, and etc. is going to require Briere's offensive flair to create chances and score goals.

If we were a cycle team that dominated the boards, we wouldn't need him. But we don't we are a fastbreak team and you need guile and speed to excel in that kind of system, Briere has both of those things.

EDIT: I should add that when we played 2 elite defensive teams in CLB and Vancouver, we had significant trouble generating chances. Obviously there were mitigating factors such as the travel, but the point still stands.

FlyHigh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2009, 03:05 PM
  #88
sa cyred
Yea....the Flyers...
 
sa cyred's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Traveling...
Country: Cuba
Posts: 15,451
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikedifr View Post
That is without Briere, so much for him being the reason our team defense stinks.....(not that I am saying you made that claim)

If you are comfortable relying on Knuble, Hartnell, Lupul for top 6 scoring in the playoffs than fine.....we dont need Briere....I for one am not confident in anyone other than Gagne/Richards/Carter to score when we need to come playoff time and I still want to see Carter keep up this pace for the whole season and through the playoffs before I am willing to call him the next coming of Christ......although they do share the same initials
I was going to type something similar to your post. I went to look up the stats of the playoffs last year. As it stood:

Name / Points

Briere: 16
Umberger: 15
Richards: 14
Prospal: 13
Carter: 11
Lupul: 10
Knuble, Hartnell, Upshall: 7

If you take out Umberger and Prospal we have 4 players that are double digits. Say Gags gets double, we are back to 5 players. I cant say anything if you (Jester) think Knuble, Hartnell and Upshall will put up points out of no where. Say we lose Briere. Then we have Richards, Carter, Lupul and hopefully Gags. I dont see us winning a cup by not putting points up and if Biron doesnt stand on his head again. Its not possible

sa cyred is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2009, 03:07 PM
  #89
mikedifr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 8,359
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
You're citing three guys capable of 30 goals in the NHL.

Yes, I'm comfortable with those guys filling out our top 6.

Briere isn't the reason we struggle defensively, but he gets exposed BADLY when he doesn't have a team around him that can shield him from his liabilities.
I am, but how many did they score in the playoffs last year compared to Briere's proven track record over the playoffs the last 3 seasons......

Several weeks ago that guy Lupul you want to rely on was on the 4th line playing with enforcers....I dont agree he should have ever been there, but you still see my point.....

Hartnell was benched a couple weeks ago and went how many games last year without scoring a goal??

Knuble is not a top 6 player at even stregth by any means and I love the guy.

So in your opinion you have Gagne, Richards, Carter, Hartnell, Lupul as your top 6, who is #6? Metro? Upshall? Asham? A rookie in Giroux or Nodl?

If his salary is used to bring in an elite dman and a stud 3rd line shut down center you might have a point, however, I dont see that happening cause 1) NMC and 2) An Elite forward for Elite dman trade doesnt happen often and 3) NMC and 4) NMC

IF Carter keeps up this pace and it isnt just some crazy hot streak....AND Giroux and JVR are ready to play in our top 6 next year I would agree with you....Until then I want him on this team and need him on this team so I have 4 guys I can truly rely on at crunch time for goals.....That is where we disagree.

mikedifr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2009, 03:09 PM
  #90
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Pick one or the other. And even in your post, I notice you refrain from using the word 'elite.'
You don't have to. They aren't mutually exclusive things and you cannot for a moment make them out to be. For years the Phils were really good offensively, but not that great a team. Same thing can be true of the Flyers, no? Flyers will score goals with anyone in this league...their problem last year, and thus far this year, has been stopping the opponent from scoring on them. That's less of a problem when you're taking on teams that struggle to score themselves, but when you struggle defensively really good teams expose that.

You don't need to pick. Without Briere we're one of the better offensive teams in this league. Without Briere we're popping off on the PP at no. 1 in the league.

So, I suppose one should provide an argument for how you can't be both a good offensive team playing an easy schedule...seems pretty clear that you can be. Last year Ottawa had the best offense in hockey.

Quote:
I personally think that playing elite teams like Boston, MTL, San Jose, Detroit, the NJD, WSH, and etc. is going to require Briere's offensive flair to create chances and score goals.
Yes, you mean the teams that will be lighting the lamp behind our goalie more often behind our goalie than Briere is lighting it behind theirs at even strength?

Quote:
If we were a cycle team that dominated the boards, we wouldn't need him. But we don't we are a fastbreak team and you need guile and speed to excel in that kind of system, Briere has both of those things.
To this point in the season, they're proving the fallacy of that claim. They can score pretty damn well without Briere.

What they need is some help on the other side of the ledger...either on D, or in goal.

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2009, 03:10 PM
  #91
Pwood
B-B-B-Bus can't swim
 
Pwood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Kentucky
Country: United States
Posts: 1,879
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Pwood Send a message via Yahoo to Pwood
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Last year...was last year. This year Jeff Carter has turned into one of the best goal scorers in the league.

While it's certainly true to note that the situation was different 2 summers ago, thus the justification for signing Briere...it's also implicitly acknowledging that things have changed over time. Briere is a good player. However, the salary cap means you can't have all the good players you want to have...you gotta make hard decisions.

Briere is going nowhere, but we can be a better team without him and using his 6.5M elsewhere. We don't need three centers eating up $18 million of salary cap.

And pay attention to what is being proposed to make Briere fit under the salary cap. It's gutting all these support guys.
I wasn't really dwelling on last year. I was just trying to say that Briere is a clutch player that is reliable (save for his scoring skid late last year). Just using last year as an example of how he can produce even without the talents of Gagne on the wing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by opus View Post
We shouldn't be in a position to force players to rush back from injuries because were tighter than a Nuns box.
LOL

Quote:
Originally Posted by opus View Post
Nobody, because right now for the time being...he's going nowehere. Hence my frustration.

Heh, you can make the arguement that if we traded all our defense and landed Kovalchuk we'd outscore everybody and blow them out of the water...so what? We don't have a balanced team...were too center heavy.

We have young prospect that we'll need to resign...and a goalie.

Look at the big picture.

A well balanced team (forwards-defense-goalie) will always beat a top heavy (forwards) team.
Well, I think that assuming everyone is healthy (the only player out long-term with Briere coming back shortly is Hatcher, which is a whole separate topic), we have a balanced team. I know hypotheticals don't help to demonstrate actuality, but you cannot look at our roster and say that we aren't a threat.

Gagne, Carter, Richards, and Timonen are all solid palyers, offensively and defensively.

Briere is good offensively, but could undoubtedly improve defensively. Overall, an All-Star caliber player.

So that makes 5 undeniably great players on our roster. Not many other teams have 5 players that nearly everyone agrees is great. (Detroit and San Jose come to mind).

Coburn has some bad turnovers and takes some bad penalties, but is overall a promising d-man. I like the rest of our defense just fine and find them reliable.

Hartnell, Lupul, Knuble, Upshall are all perfect for the 2nd liners role and all put up decent numbers.

Asham, Metropolit, and Cote are all hard workers and fit nicely in a 4th line.

Biron is pretty much what we paid for, sometimes better. Niittymaki is a great backup and could be a starter for another more desperate team, IMO.

I think that if everyone is healthy, this team looks great.

And for arguments sake, I'm not dealing with the cap, just looking at skill and productivity.

Pwood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2009, 03:11 PM
  #92
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikedifr View Post
I am, but how many did they score in the playoffs last year compared to Briere's proven track record over the playoffs the last 3 seasons......
Over larger samples playoff statistics directly mirror regular season statistics.

RJ Umberger's playoff statistics are pretty fantastic these days...

...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pwood View Post
I wasn't really dwelling on last year. I was just trying to say that Briere is a clutch player that is reliable (save for his scoring skid late last year). Just using last year as an example of how he can produce even without the talents of Gagne on the wing.
There is no such thing as "clutch." You are what you are...no more, and no less. Briere is a very good offensive player. He will produce points.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pwood View Post
Well, I think that assuming everyone is healthy (the only player out long-term with Briere coming back shortly is Hatcher, which is a whole separate topic), we have a balanced team. I know hypotheticals don't help to demonstrate actuality, but you cannot look at our roster and say that we aren't a threat.
Assuming everyone is healthy...it's useless to look at our roster as of now, as it won't be the roster at that point in time. We can't afford the players we currently have under contract.

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2009, 03:14 PM
  #93
mikedifr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 8,359
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
You don't have to. They aren't mutually exclusive things and you cannot for a moment make them out to be. For years the Phils were really good offensively, but not that great a team. Same thing can be true of the Flyers, no? Flyers will score goals with anyone in this league...their problem last year, and thus far this year, has been stopping the opponent from scoring on them. That's less of a problem when you're taking on teams that struggle to score themselves, but when you struggle defensively really good teams expose that.

You don't need to pick. Without Briere we're one of the better offensive teams in this league. Without Briere we're popping off on the PP at no. 1 in the league.

So, I suppose one should provide an argument for how you can't be both a good offensive team playing an easy schedule...seems pretty clear that you can be. Last year Ottawa had the best offense in hockey.



Yes, you mean the teams that will be lighting the lamp behind our goalie more often behind our goalie than Briere is lighting it behind theirs at even strength?



To this point in the season, they're proving the fallacy of that claim. They can score pretty damn well without Briere.

What they need is some help on the other side of the ledger...either on D, or in goal.
I dont disagree with this....again, if you tell me we are replacing Briere with Pronger, Lidstrom, Boyle, Rafalski, Weber, Campbell, Niedermayer or Chara I would be all for it.......

It aint happening.....

mikedifr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2009, 03:18 PM
  #94
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikedifr View Post
I dont disagree with this....again, if you tell me we are replacing Briere with Pronger, Lidstrom, Boyle, Rafalski, Weber, Campbell, Niedermayer or Chara I would be all for it.......

It aint happening.....
Because we are so cap strapped that we are incapable of making any moves with him on our roster...and it will only get worse.

If you do believe that we need to reinvest and that we'd be better doing that, then you're implicitly agreeing that we can be a better team without Briere. And, more to the point, it doesn't need to be another player making 6.5M.

We can look at FlyHigh's boy Carle, who has been a nice acquisition. We made that move, and it's a big part of the problem as of now. We added a 3.5M salary to our books, which tightened up everything even more. Carle has certainly helped with his puck moving ability back there, and is a leap above Jones (who really does need to go). That's what this team needs...2nd/3rd pairing guys that are quality.

Carle, of course, highlights the problem in another way as that at this point its tough to get value on the trade market, as he's a bit overpaid as of now. Unless you're developing those guys internally (similar to what you see with baseball pitchers), you're going to give up a bit of empty cap space on the value side of the ledger.

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2009, 03:18 PM
  #95
mikedifr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 8,359
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Over larger samples playoff statistics directly mirror regular season statistics.

RJ Umberger's playoff statistics are pretty fantastic these days...

...
I really dont want to get into that debate again....I agree and disagree with this. I agree that Umberger type performances are few and far between, however, there is a reason certain players score more game winning goals than others....Some players thrive on pressure and some dont. Also, there are players that are very, very streaky scorers like Hartnell (although he has been a little more consistent this year) and Lupul......and there are elite consistent scoring players like Briere.

mikedifr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2009, 03:22 PM
  #96
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikedifr View Post
I really dont want to get into that debate again....I agree and disagree with this. I agree that Umberger type performances are few and far between, however, there is a reason certain players score more game winning goals than others....Some players thrive on pressure and some dont. Also, there are players that are very, very streaky scorers like Hartnell (although he has been a little more consistent this year) and Lupul......and there are elite consistent scoring players like Briere.
All of which comes to the fact that you are what you are...and Umberger type performances aren't that few and far between, they happen every year in the playoffs for teams that go deep. I'd go so far as to say that you have to bank on that plus the play of your goalie stepping up at the right time. You look at any team in the Conf. Finals and Cup Finals and you're going to see role players who have had nice runs for themselves.

While Briere is certainly a good offensive player, you reach a point where enough is enough against the cap. 10 years ago...fine, go for it and I'd have no problem with him on the team. Now...different story.

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2009, 03:24 PM
  #97
Pwood
B-B-B-Bus can't swim
 
Pwood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Kentucky
Country: United States
Posts: 1,879
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Pwood Send a message via Yahoo to Pwood
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
There is no such thing as "clutch." You are what you are...no more, and no less. Briere is a very good offensive player. He will produce points.
R.J. Umberger comes to mind. Is he as truly good as he was in the playoffs last year? No, but he was "clutch" in the playoffs. I'm not saying that Umberger is as good as Briere because that's ridiculous, but there is something called a "clutch" player. I meant it as more of a "when he is needed, he will step it up" sort of thing anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Assuming everyone is healthy...it's useless to look at our roster as of now, as it won't be the roster at that point in time. We can't afford the players we currently have under contract.
I was not taking the cap into consideration because I haven't the time nor energy to argue why Briere is a great asset but a cap calamity. And I understand we won't have the same roster post trade deadline, but with our talents we are in decent bargaining power and may be able to dump some salary and get something good back.

Either way, it won't be Briere. NTC.

Pwood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2009, 03:25 PM
  #98
mikedifr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 8,359
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Because we are so cap strapped that we are incapable of making any moves with him on our roster...and it will only get worse.

If you do believe that we need to reinvest and that we'd be better doing that, then you're implicitly agreeing that we can be a better team without Briere. And, more to the point, it doesn't need to be another player making 6.5M.

We can look at FlyHigh's boy Carle, who has been a nice acquisition. We made that move, and it's a big part of the problem as of now. We added a 3.5M salary to our books, which tightened up everything even more. Carle has certainly helped with his puck moving ability back there, and is a leap above Jones (who really does need to go). That's what this team needs...2nd/3rd pairing guys that are quality.

Carle, of course, highlights the problem in another way as that at this point its tough to get value on the trade market, as he's a bit overpaid as of now. Unless you're developing those guys internally (similar to what you see with baseball pitchers), you're going to give up a bit of empty cap space on the value side of the ledger.
We may be incapable of making moves for this season yes, because as I said you are never going to see an elite forward for an elite dman type of trade.....Or someone with the cap hit of Briere for two or 3 other really good players.....The only trade that I can think of that comes even close to that is Brad Richards....and I would not trade Briere for that package. I think we are "stuck" with what we have this season.

Its rather simple for this year in my opinon.....Jones has to go and potentially Alberts has to go....they are too expensive for 3rd pairing dmen.

However, going to next season, I much rather have Briere at 6.5 than Lupul at 4 or whatever the heck he is making.....

Not to mention the fact that a team with Coburn, Timonen, Carle, Vaananen and good defensive forwards such as Richards, Gagne, Carter, Hartnell, Upshall, Metro, Asham etc. should be much better defensively than 23rd in the league......but that is a whole different discussion to have

mikedifr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2009, 03:27 PM
  #99
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pwood View Post
R.J. Umberger comes to mind. Is he as truly good as he was in the playoffs last year? No, but he was "clutch" in the playoffs. I'm not saying that Umberger is as good as Briere because that's ridiculous, but there is something called a "clutch" player. I meant it as more of a "when he is needed, he will step it up" sort of thing anyway.
But that's not really what happens...it's short samples and guys get hot. This happens all throughout the season. So it really doesn't apply any real value to talk about it in those terms. Briere is a really good offensive player so when he's playing hockey games you'd expect him to produce points...thus he scores points in the playoffs.

There is, quite simply, no such thing as being a "clutch" player. They are the same player, playing the same sport, under the same rules...and if you look at player production, it shows this to be true in almost every case.

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2009, 03:30 PM
  #100
FlyHigh
Registered User
 
FlyHigh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 28,156
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to FlyHigh Send a message via MSN to FlyHigh
The personnel we have at D are not the problem at this point.

Kimmo - Fantastic as always.

Coburn - Rocky, no doubt about that, should be playing less minutes.

Carle - A little mistake prone, but he's been generally very solid and without a doubt has helped a lot on the breakouts.

Vaananen - A rock.

Alberts - Surprisingly solid since we picked him up.

Is there any doubt that a guy like Weber would be an upgrade? Of course not. But let's think realistically here.

Is a 2nd pairing guy (for instance, a Brad Stuart), a significant enough upgrade for us in our top-4?

As far as I'm concerned, we have 4 top-4 D right now.

Last year, you could attribute a lot of our problems to the fact that we didn't have 4 top-4 D and in addition, guys like Smith, Hatch, Vandy, Modry, and Fitzpatrick were killing us.

This year, we have 3 guys playing very well (Carle, Vaananen, Kimmo), a 4th guy doing okay (Coburn), and a generally solid bottom pairing. The talent level is not the problem.

The problem, again, is just extremely poor defensive zone coaching with a dose of very inconsistent goaltending.

It's not like Briere coming back is going to create a huge problem, there already is a huge problem. Throwing more top-4 D at it isn't going to solve the problem that we are fundamentally pathetic in our own zone.

We allow .2 more goals per game than we did last year. That's with an improved defense and it's without Briere in the lineup. We are 18th in the league last year in GAA and have moved back to 23rd this year.

So I mean, if Briere is the holocaust defensively, how come we allow more goals this year than we did last year? Briere is not the problem here. Until this team learns how to play defensively, we are going to allow extremely high amounts of goals and that's not going to change with or without Briere.

FlyHigh is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:17 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.