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Should The Rangers Have Signed Mark Streit Instead?

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Old
01-09-2009, 11:35 AM
  #76
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Liles anyone?

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01-09-2009, 11:40 AM
  #77
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it's not so much would've, could've, should've...we're revisiting our thoughts from the beginning of the season and re-evaluating what was done vs. what many thought should've been done. In other words, going through Sather's report card.

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01-09-2009, 11:41 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by I Eat Crow View Post
I agree that Redden has been awful for the most part thus far, but take off your anti-Redden blinders for one second.

I was at the game against the Penguins Monday night, and for some reason I was thinking exactly this; "Wow, if Redden flipped on a switch, how scary would this Rangers team be?". Redden played his best game as a Ranger that night, IMO. While he didn't show up on the scoresheet, he played very sound defensively, and I saw him join the rush a few times without getting caught up ice. Keep in mind people, Redden is here for at least a couple of seasons, for better or worse.

As a fan of the team, I can only hope that Redden re-discovers his form from even two seasons ago and lets it show on the ice. I have faith that he will. The first season in New York is never easy for a free agent signing with the team. Redden also got married over the summer, so I'm sure he's juggling playing in a new city while also adapting to married life. Not exactly an easy thing to do. Wade will bounce back, I have strong convictions that he will.

For the record, as I mentioned in the beginning of my post, I agree that Redden has been brutal so far this season, and definitely don't approve of the terms of his contract, both in monetary amount and length. Be honest with yourselves for a minute. I have no doubt in my mind that Streit would have been God awful here in Manhattan had he signed here instead of Redden. Streit is only having a good season stats wise because of the new up tempo system that Scott Gordon has installed since he became coach. Had Redden signed on the island, he would be at the All Star game for the Isles as Streit will be. Take a look at some of Streit's highlights, the guy is a train wreck defensively, even more so than Redden. There's a reason Montreal dressed Streit as a forward for a good chunk of their games last season.



My short answer to the OP's question: No.
Streit has played very well defensively this year. Being a -5 on the worst team in the league is pretty good. Compare him to the other dmen on the Isles and you will see he isnt a train wreck on d.

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01-09-2009, 11:44 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
I would think that the most recent trands of each player would have more bearing on a decision than what a player has done 3+ years ago.

Post lockout Redden has been a terrible defender both offensively and defensively and while I initially thought a change of scenery was needed after they tried to trade him three times.

The speed of the game has gotten to a point where Redden is being exposed of a medicore defensive defenceman. If the forwards are not slowing the on-rushers up by holding and hooking and general obstruction, they are blowing right by him and he's having a tough time adjusting.

Want to tell me over the course of one year it's an adjustment period I can live with that, but he's been horrible since we came back from the lockout.

Streit provides us with something that Redden does not and that is a presence on the point.

Hindsight is 20/20, but we knew that Redden was in decline before he was signed. Streit was not.
Streit provides us with nothing because there is no way of measuring how he would perform on this team.

Streit wasn't even a consistent presence on the blue line last year in Montreal, unless it was on the PP. What kind of defenseman spends 6 times the minutes on the PP as he does on the PK? Clearly not one that was even remotely considered to be reliable in a defensive situation.

So what exactly makes someone "Yes, I want Streit as a top-4 d-man on this team" other than the first half of this season?

Jagr was on a decline for 2 years and rebounded with the Rangers. Of course Sather is going to assume the same could be true for Redden who had a tremendous 05-06 (yes, thats post lockout) and was on pace for nearly 50pts in 06-07.

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01-09-2009, 11:47 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by we want cup View Post
Liles anyone?
How were you going to acquire him as a FA when he never made it to the open market?

I wanted him as well, but he hasn't been particularly good this season either.

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01-09-2009, 11:50 AM
  #81
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How were you going to acquire him as a FA when he never made it to the open market?

I wanted him as well, but he hasn't been particularly good this season either.
I know he never made it to FA, and I was very annoyed about that. I still think he would have been the best possible defensemen for us to get. Better contract than Redden/Campbell, better (IMO) than Streit.


I watched him last night vs the 'hawks. He played a pretty schweet game. That's what reminded me of my unfulfilled desire for Slats to throw money at him. Might have taken more than he makes, but probably wouldn't have taken 6.5mil per year for the rest of his life.

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01-09-2009, 12:05 PM
  #82
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Hindsight 20/20 is awesome isnt it?



Go back to a poll in June Redden or Sreit......Redden would win 90 to 10.
my thoughts exactly. this is monday morning qbing to the extreme. streit was coming off to a ****** year.

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01-09-2009, 01:12 PM
  #83
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I wanted Tyutin, since I am well documented fan of him. I am not so high on Streit. I think NYI PP would be good without him and MTL PP went down more due to Sourray absence then Mark's.

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01-09-2009, 01:48 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
Streit provides us with nothing because there is no way of measuring how he would perform on this team.

Streit wasn't even a consistent presence on the blue line last year in Montreal, unless it was on the PP. What kind of defenseman spends 6 times the minutes on the PP as he does on the PK? Clearly not one that was even remotely considered to be reliable in a defensive situation.

So what exactly makes someone "Yes, I want Streit as a top-4 d-man on this team" other than the first half of this season?

Jagr was on a decline for 2 years and rebounded with the Rangers. Of course Sather is going to assume the same could be true for Redden who had a tremendous 05-06 (yes, thats post lockout) and was on pace for nearly 50pts in 06-07.
Not a good comparison by any stretch.

The fact of the matter is that Jagr didn't want to be in Washington and had his heart set on being traded to NY when the deal when down. Yes he signed a contract extension, but so would you if you were being given 11million a year for 7 years.

Jagr halfassssed it in Washington and still averaged a point a game. Redden was (putting up points do doubt) struggling at his position of Defence which is why Ottawa tried to trade him the year he was on pace for 50 points. Why is that? Because they knew something the rest of the league hadn't found out yet...the league had gotten to fast for him.

He defensive mis-cue's were no longer few and far between. They were happening with more and more regularity and while the +/- stat is not all telling in how a player plays, a drop from +35 to +1 is a monumental fall from grace.

Chara leaving the Sens exposed Redden for what he is. A slow player that greatly benefits from the players he's playing with and not because he can create anything for himself.

His decision making is bad, he's no longer an elite breakout passer and his shot was never that worrisome to begin with.

He's not a No. 1 and I didn't realize that myself until I was able to get an opportunity to watch him on a regular basis.

He doesn't have to be better than Striet offensively, but if he were as good as he's been touted, this PP is not 27th in the league.

He's a 6.5 million dollar 2nd pairing defenceman.

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01-09-2009, 02:19 PM
  #85
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Some of you guys are really too much...

Fletch, you know I think you're a great poster, but I really don't think Redden is a top 4 defender on most teams the way he plays. A top 4 defenseman needs to excel at at least some aspect of the game? Redden excels at nothing. I'll give you that he isn't TERRIBLE at anything, either, but is there anything that he is more than average at? Anything at all? And when you take an average player that plays like he doesn't give a ****, then you get an easily replaceable, dime a dozen player. Again, he plays without urgency and without heart, and he doesn't involve himself in the play enough. He's also shown the propensity to make the wrong decision more often than the right one in key game situations.

TRJXW... Redden was on pace for 50 points and the Sens fanbase STILL called for his head. Hmm? wonder why? BTW, when you play with Spezza/Heatley/Alfredson, anyone can get 50 points: See Kuba, Filip.

Someone brought up the point about a lot of other GMs choosing Redden over Streit. My response to that is you should give up the delusion that the GMs in this league, or any other, are all geniuses. All you need to do is look to our own GM to know that that isn't true, but everyday new competitors emerge in the race to see who the dumbest GM is. Please remember that for all the Poiles, Lamorriellos, and Hollands, you have Waddells, John Ferguson, Jr.s, Milburys, and MacLeans. Not to mention some of the brainiacs in the NBA, MLB, or NFL.

If you look at the track record of a GM like Sather (and there are certainly others like him), you begin to see that his moves resemble that of a fantasy hockey player. GMs of his ilk don't even seem like they watch the sport anymore, they make moves based on reputations and stats alone. That's how you end up having three of the top 10 worst contracts in the league on your team. Plenty of these GMs are cluelesss. See the way Bobby Ryan is playing? See his goal last night? Remember Kevin Lowe saying he was a questionable pick a few months ago?

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01-09-2009, 02:36 PM
  #86
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I'm a Sens fan and Sting36e is bang on with his observations of Redden. Redden was simply NOT the same player after the lockout, and it became apparent quite quickly after the first year. People wanted to be patient with him and seeing that we had our cup run many of us were hopeful that he would bounce back, but that never came to fruition. He had to step things up and really do more to help the team when it was struggling last year, but the best he had to offer is no different than what he brings to the Rangers (I've watched about 6 games this year). The advocates for keeping Redden in Ottawa wanted to do so based on his history and how he was one of the faces of the Senators for so many years, but even they would have taken issue to keeping him at 6.5 million. His standing ovation was more a tribute to what he contributed to various charities and other organizations around the city.

He's very much the same slow skating player that has an average breakout, that gets beat when you skate wide, and offers little in terms of PP creativity. Even though he was willing to take a paycut, we didn't exactly pursue his services heavily. I think it was a take it or leave it offer for 2.5-3 million for one or two years without an NTC, which at the time was seen as generous value for the way he played.

Most of your descriptions fit the way he played with Ottawa to the word. He never really skipped a beat in terms of the way he's played and I don't think he's headed for a miracle turnaround in the future either.


I wouldn't look to the way Ottawa has been doing as evidence for what Redden brought to the team. Most of the problems stem from what we've had to deal with because of Muckler's bad drafting, and the selection of Craig Hartsburg which has a completely incompatible system for the makeup of the roster. We're slated at least to shed some bad contracts, get some high draft picks, sign a key UFA player and inject some young defense men into the lineup.

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01-09-2009, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHMan View Post
I'm a Sens fan and Sting36e is bang on with his observations of Redden. Redden was simply NOT the same player after the lockout, and it became apparent quite quickly after the first year. People wanted to be patient with him and seeing that we had our cup run many of us were hopeful that he would bounce back, but that never came to fruition. He had to step things up and really do more to help the team when it was struggling last year, but the best he had to offer is no different than what he brings to the Rangers (I've watched about 6 games this year). The advocates for keeping Redden in Ottawa wanted to do so based on his history and how he was one of the faces of the Senators for so many years, but even they would have taken issue to keeping him at 6.5 million. His standing ovation was more a tribute to what he contributed to various charities and other organizations around the city.

He's very much the same slow skating player that has an average breakout, that gets beat when you skate wide, and offers little in terms of PP creativity. Even though he was willing to take a paycut, we didn't exactly pursue his services heavily. I think it was a take it or leave it offer for 2.5-3 million for one or two years without an NTC, which at the time was seen as generous value for the way he played.

Most of your descriptions fit the way he played with Ottawa to the word. He never really skipped a beat in terms of the way he's played and I don't think he's headed for a miracle turnaround in the future either.


I wouldn't look to the way Ottawa has been doing as evidence for what Redden brought to the team. Most of the problems stem from what we've had to deal with because of Muckler's bad drafting, and the selection of Craig Hartsburg which has a completely incompatible system for the makeup of the roster. We're slated at least to shed some bad contracts, get some high draft picks, sign a key UFA player and inject some young defense men into the lineup.
Lets not forget Ray Emery who injected the senators with Cancer

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01-09-2009, 02:46 PM
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Not a good comparison by any stretch.

The fact of the matter is that Jagr didn't want to be in Washington and had his heart set on being traded to NY when the deal when down. Yes he signed a contract extension, but so would you if you were being given 11million a year for 7 years.
And Redden rejected numerous offers from Ottawa and signed in NY. So how is that any different?

Clearly Redden was hoping to rebound and Sather felt that he could. The same applied to Jagr.

Quote:
Jagr halfassssed it in Washington and still averaged a point a game. Redden was (putting up points do doubt) struggling at his position of Defence which is why Ottawa tried to trade him the year he was on pace for 50 points. Why is that? Because they knew something the rest of the league hadn't found out yet...the league had gotten to fast for him.

He defensive mis-cue's were no longer few and far between. They were happening with more and more regularity and while the +/- stat is not all telling in how a player plays, a drop from +35 to +1 is a monumental fall from grace.
The entire team became a defensive disaster after Chara left. Redden is gone and they're now worse than they were while he was there.

A drop or increase in +/- is indicative of a drastic change in environment more so than anything else. Dan Boyle was a -29 last season and is now a +7. Does that mean he's improved his defensive game? Perhaps a bit, but it's primarily a result of the team and the system. Not to mention an improvement in goaltending.

Quote:
Chara leaving the Sens exposed Redden for what he is. A slow player that greatly benefits from the players he's playing with and not because he can create anything for himself.

His decision making is bad, he's no longer an elite breakout passer and his shot was never that worrisome to begin with.

He's not a No. 1 and I didn't realize that myself until I was able to get an opportunity to watch him on a regular basis.
It's hard not to expect a guy's numbers to drop when he gets the majority of his points on the PP and winds up on one of the worst PP units in the league.

He's not supposed to be an offensive dynamo. He's supposed to be solid in both ends. He's made as many gaffs as any other defensemen on this team. Staal makes mistakes. Girardi makes mistakes. Everyone has made mistakes.

Quote:
He doesn't have to be better than Striet offensively, but if he were as good as he's been touted, this PP is not 27th in the league.

He's a 6.5 million dollar 2nd pairing defenceman.
He never was a PP specialist. He's there because he can pass and shoot better than most d-men. He's not a Campbell or Kaberle.

Nobody was going to fix this PP. It needs to be changed dramatically. If Jaromir Jagr couldn't make it work, Wade Redden wasn't going to make it work.

People get far too upset about contract numbers when it really has nothing to do with the players at all. Redden was offered this contract by Sather. Sather is the guy to blame for bad contracts, not the players.

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01-09-2009, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by TheHMan View Post
I'm a Sens fan and Sting36e is bang on with his observations of Redden. Redden was simply NOT the same player after the lockout, and it became apparent quite quickly after the first year. People wanted to be patient with him and seeing that we had our cup run many of us were hopeful that he would bounce back, but that never came to fruition. He had to step things up and really do more to help the team when it was struggling last year, but the best he had to offer is no different than what he brings to the Rangers (I've watched about 6 games this year). The advocates for keeping Redden in Ottawa wanted to do so based on his history and how he was one of the faces of the Senators for so many years, but even they would have taken issue to keeping him at 6.5 million. His standing ovation was more a tribute to what he contributed to various charities and other organizations around the city.

He's very much the same slow skating player that has an average breakout, that gets beat when you skate wide, and offers little in terms of PP creativity. Even though he was willing to take a paycut, we didn't exactly pursue his services heavily. I think it was a take it or leave it offer for 2.5-3 million for one or two years without an NTC, which at the time was seen as generous value for the way he played.

Most of your descriptions fit the way he played with Ottawa to the word. He never really skipped a beat in terms of the way he's played and I don't think he's headed for a miracle turnaround in the future either.


I wouldn't look to the way Ottawa has been doing as evidence for what Redden brought to the team. Most of the problems stem from what we've had to deal with because of Muckler's bad drafting, and the selection of Craig Hartsburg which has a completely incompatible system for the makeup of the roster. We're slated at least to shed some bad contracts, get some high draft picks, sign a key UFA player and inject some young defense men into the lineup.
Thank You.

Hate to say I told any of you so, but what else is it going to take for you people to stop defending Redden for his horrendous play, and Sather for his horrendous decision-making? I'd be willing to bet the VAST majority of Sens fans would echo the same sentiments this gentleman is making, and that I have been making since July 2.

There are only two ways anyone could have wanted anything to do with Redden after the way he's been playing for the last 2 seasons, especially over Streit:

A) They just plain haven't seen him play and are making a judgment based on reputation and statistics alone.

B) They don't know anything about hockey. Or the at least simply don't understand the very intricate ins-and-outs of the sport, nor do they possess the knowledge necessary to analyze a team/player critically.

Now I think choice B applies to quite a few fans, but even I can't accuse Sather of not understanding anything about the sport. What I can accuse him of is being someone who bases decisions on name more than on actual performance.

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01-09-2009, 02:59 PM
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I'd rather trade Redden and Rozsival and sign Bouwmeester in the summer.

I wonder if Columbus would take Rozsival for Tyutin.


Imagine having a top pairing of Staal-Bouwmeester...

Staal - Bouwmeester
Tyutin - Girardi
Del Zotto - Mara

One can dream.


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01-09-2009, 03:01 PM
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buttering me up then disagreeing with me? Man, you're harsh (just kidding).

I have my issues with Redden. I'm not a fan of his, wasn't a fan of his signing, and didn't fully buy into the change of scenery notion. I do think though that when you're talking top four defenseme these days, you're not really saying that much. I agree with much of what you say about him, and that he doesn't really excel at anything. But, he is an above average offenseman - he should get between 30-40 points this season while logging in more than 20 minutes per night, often going against top lines. That in and of itself doesn't automatically make you top four, but it gets you close. And top four ain't all great shakes on most teams.

What needs to be remembered is he is going against these top lines often. Lots of defensemen seem to be able to do that in spot duty, but Redden does it more than just in spot duty (and quite frankly, he's not suitable for that). And on many nights, he does get the job done. And other nights, well, he's gettinng beat and his lack of physical play shows. But I still think he's an above-average player, which is top four. $6.5MM over 6 years? Nah. Somewhere around Rozsival or a little less? I think more than 1/2 the league's GMs would go for that if not more of them.

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01-09-2009, 03:04 PM
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Lets not forget Ray Emery who injected the senators with Cancer
I was one of the few that never wanted to see Ray gone. After the Senators have had SO many issues finding a solid goaltender over the years, I really wasn't crazy about us sinking someone who was so young (albeit stupid at times) in his career.

I was hoping that management would tell the Ottawa media to **** off and quit their character assassination antics to turn a buck, but unfortunately they caved and bought him out. The exact same thing has been happening with Spezza, but he has too many redeemable qualities so I don't think we'll see him traded.

EDIT: Speaking of goaltenders Ottawa called up their only other legit goaltending prospect Brian Elliot who may play against the Rangers in the next game at Scotiabank place. We'll see how that goes, he's been tearing up the AHL.


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01-09-2009, 03:07 PM
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TRJXW... Redden was on pace for 50 points and the Sens fanbase STILL called for his head. Hmm? wonder why? BTW, when you play with Spezza/Heatley/Alfredson, anyone can get 50 points: See Kuba, Filip.
Which is the same thing every other fan base does. Sure, not all GM's are geniuses, but I'll go with them more often than I will go with a disgruntled fan.

Sather took a risk and is hasn't paid off. But unlike some (or apparently most) I'm still willing to give the guy (and the team for that matter) a chance to prove he's worth it.

How anyone could possibly say that they thought a guy who spent most of his time as a forward was a better option for a defensemen than an actual defensemen is beyond me.

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01-09-2009, 03:08 PM
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If we're gonna play this tired game, forget Redden & Streit, we shouldve picked up Chara when he was available.
The Rangers heavily pursued Zdeno Chara and threw a HUGE contract at him. His representation contacted the Rangers and informed them he had no interest in NYC.

Going into the offseason, Streit was seen as a 1 tool defensemen. While everyone here bemoans the powerplay, Sather was attempting to sign an all-around top pairing defensemen. He didn't want another Ozo, he wanted a defensemen that could play 25 minutes. Streit wasn't that guy and hadn't played anywhere near that reliably.

The isles rolled the dice and had nothing to lose and Streit showed he could contribute much more (although on an EXTREMELY limited talent team).

Streit's the #1 guy there right now and leaned on heavily (Thomas Pock is in their top six), but Renney didn't want a specialist (as Streit was seen as), he wanted an all situation defensemen.

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01-09-2009, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by frozenrubber View Post
The Rangers heavily pursued Zdeno Chara and threw a HUGE contract at him. His representation contacted the Rangers and informed them he had no interest in NYC.

Going into the offseason, Streit was seen as a 1 tool defensemen. While everyone here bemoans the powerplay, Sather was attempting to sign an all-around top pairing defensemen. He didn't want another Ozo, he wanted a defensemen that could play 25 minutes. Streit wasn't that guy and hadn't played anywhere near that reliably.

The isles rolled the dice and had nothing to lose and Streit showed he could contribute much more (although on an EXTREMELY limited talent team).

Streit's the #1 guy there right now and leaned on heavily (Thomas Pock is in their top six), but Renney didn't want a specialist (as Streit was seen as), he wanted an all situation defensemen.
Thank you. Excellent post.

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01-09-2009, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by frozenrubber View Post
The Rangers heavily pursued Zdeno Chara and threw a HUGE contract at him. His representation contacted the Rangers and informed them he had no interest in NYC.

Going into the offseason, Streit was seen as a 1 tool defensemen. While everyone here bemoans the powerplay, Sather was attempting to sign an all-around top pairing defensemen. He didn't want another Ozo, he wanted a defensemen that could play 25 minutes. Streit wasn't that guy and hadn't played anywhere near that reliably.

The isles rolled the dice and had nothing to lose and Streit showed he could contribute much more (although on an EXTREMELY limited talent team).

Streit's the #1 guy there right now and leaned on heavily (Thomas Pock is in their top six), but Renney didn't want a specialist (as Streit was seen as), he wanted an all situation defensemen.
Bingo

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01-09-2009, 03:23 PM
  #97
NYR Sting
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Originally Posted by frozenrubber View Post
Going into the offseason, Streit was seen as a 1 tool defensemen. While everyone here bemoans the powerplay, Sather was attempting to sign an all-around top pairing defensemen. He didn't want another Ozo, he wanted a defensemen that could play 25 minutes. Streit wasn't that guy and hadn't played anywhere near that reliably.

The isles rolled the dice and had nothing to lose and Streit showed he could contribute much more (although on an EXTREMELY limited talent team).

Streit's the #1 guy there right now and leaned on heavily (Thomas Pock is in their top six), but Renney didn't want a specialist (as Streit was seen as), he wanted an all situation defensemen.
And he got someone who is terribly average in all situations and has played the worst hockey of his career for two straight seasons, so much so that in a town where he was beloved by fans as a person, his team threw him a low, half-hearted offer to act like it wanted him when it clearly didn't. Yeah, that's clearly not only the guy who you should pursue, but sign to an incredible expensive and long contract.

Makes perfect sense to me.

By the way, there were other teams interested in Mark Streit. But the Islanders payroll isn't very high, so they could afford to overpay the most for him. And, let's recall that the biggest reason he didn't play much defense in Montreal is because Montreal didn't really give him the opportunity to. They had a very solid group back there for most of his tenure with the club. Markov, Souray/Hamrilik, Komisarek, and Bouillon (who manages to stick around so they must like him), and some yutes in Gorges and O'Byrne. They needed to get those defensemen in the lineup so they shifted Streit BECAUSE he has the ability to play forward, as well. What a great utility player to have.

Wouldn't it make sense for the league's best defensive team to be willing to downgrade their defense slightly to improve their anemic offense?

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Old
01-09-2009, 03:34 PM
  #98
we want cup
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Wouldn't it make sense for the league's best defensive team to be willing to downgrade their defense slightly to improve their anemic offense?
Move this post to the Minnesota board and it makes sense.

As currently located, however, I don't get it.

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Old
01-09-2009, 04:23 PM
  #99
NYR Sting
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Originally Posted by we want cup View Post
Move this post to the Minnesota board and it makes sense.

As currently located, however, I don't get it.
I was exaggerating. We'e been one of the best defensive teams in the NHL under Renney. Fairly Consistently among the leaders in GAA and PK%. Certainly, Lundqvist deserves a huge share of the credit, but it doesn't change the fact that we aren't a team that lets in a lot of goals, the last few weeks aside.

What this team has never been able to do is put a lot of goals over any kind of extended period of time. You need compromises to succeed, and you can't afford to be good at just one end of the ice. You need to be good at both. I'd rather be 7th in GAA and 13th in GF than 3rd in GAA and 23rd in GF, or something along those lines.

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Old
01-09-2009, 04:50 PM
  #100
Melrose_Jr.
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Hate to say I told any of you so, but what else is it going to take for you people to stop defending Redden for his horrendous play, and Sather for his horrendous decision-making?
Defending? More like rationalizing. Not everyone's here with a vendetta and a need to slander a player they don't like in every post. Some of us just like to comment on and discuss what we see without bias. This forum would only benefit if you could do the same.

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