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Old
01-09-2009, 08:18 PM
  #51
phlocky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Honestly...you're confusing this WAY more than you need to. Yes, the salary cap is very complicated, but it is specifically calculated on a day-to-day pro-rated basis.

And, no, you cannot guarantee that our active roster salary will not exceed 56.7M as a yearly number. In our case it's difficult to go above that number because we have very little salary cap flexibility (because we haven't been carrying any cap cushion), but with trades it is easy to assume a contract that pushes you past that number, but is legal simply because of the pro-rated nature of how the salary cap figure is calculated.

The Flyers are no responsible for the yearly value of Powe or Nodl or Kalinski's contract, they're responsible for the number of days they spend with the Flyers. The pro-rated...daily value of their contracts.
You get part of it but are failing to understand that the ONLY way you can acrue any space that would let you be OVER the 56.7 mil is to be UNDER the 56.7 mil for pervious portions of the year. With all the LTIR the Flyers have we haven't acrued any cap space. With Rathje and Hatcher adding up to another 7 mil STILL on LTIR and it being unlikely for us to be able to trade them we will not acrue any open cap space for the rest of this year unles we can get the active roster under 49.7 mil. Good luck with that.

I know that is theoretically possible for this to happen it's about as likely as me jumping into my spaceship and flying away at warp 9 (which if you aren;t a trekky that 9 times the speed of light and if your not a science geek that's theoretically impossible). It's just plain retarded to say that we can get our current active roster cap to be under 56.7 so that we can add a player later that would put us over at a later date. The simple truth is that we have already spent between 500k and 1 mil on LTIR that we CANNOT get back. It's gone, wasted, never to be returned. We've spent about 5-5.25 mil in LTIR but we have recieved all but about the 500k - 1 mil I stated above.

Again, we have EXACTLY 28.35 million available for salary this year, over 93 days or half the season. Hatcher and Rathje will remove 3.5 million from that taking us down to 24.85 mil unless those 2 players either die, get traded or miraculously come back and we find a way to fit them into the active roster. Now we are eligable to recieve up to but not exceeding the 3.5 mil for them being on LTIR. We don't automatically get back all of that 3.5 mil if we need it later. we can ONLY use it on the day we need it.

Hell, a team COULD be in cap compliance one day, make no transactions and then the next day NOT be in cap compliance. It all has to do with how and when you recieve your LTIR cap relief. If you don't understand how this is possible it would be impossible to explain it on a chat board.

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Old
01-09-2009, 08:22 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
...


So why did they waive him? The only thing I can think of is because sending down other guys will clear space and use him as a 7th defenseman up front. I know Stevens says he likes rolling 4 lines (even though that's a blatant lie), but this is the hand he is dealt. I guess they also don't want to get burn with recall waivers.
They did this so that they CAN send him down at any time in the next 30 days. We don't have to wait 24 hours once we get a definite date on Brieres return. Kukks is the only one we are considering sending down who would have to pass through waivers, anyone else we can send down without having to wait.

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01-09-2009, 08:30 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
You get part of it but are failing to understand that the ONLY way you can acrue any space that would let you be OVER the 56.7 mil is to be UNDER the 56.7 mil for pervious portions of the year. With all the LTIR the Flyers have we haven't acrued any cap space. With Rathje and Hatcher adding up to another 7 mil STILL on LTIR and it being unlikely for us to be able to trade them we will not acrue any open cap space for the rest of this year unles we can get the active roster under 49.7 mil. Good luck with that.

I know that is theoretically possible for this to happen it's about as likely as me jumping into my spaceship and flying away at warp 9 (which if you aren;t a trekky that 9 times the speed of light and if your not a science geek that's theoretically impossible). It's just plain retarded to say that we can get our current active roster cap to be under 56.7 so that we can add a player later that would put us over at a later date. The simple truth is that we have already spent between 500k and 1 mil on LTIR that we CANNOT get back. It's gone, wasted, never to be returned. We've spent about 5-5.25 mil in LTIR but we have recieved all but about the 500k - 1 mil I stated above.

Again, we have EXACTLY 28.35 million available for salary this year, over 93 days or half the season. Hatcher and Rathje will remove 3.5 million from that taking us down to 24.85 mil unless those 2 players either die, get traded or miraculously come back and we find a way to fit them into the active roster. Now we are eligable to recieve up to but not exceeding the 3.5 mil for them being on LTIR. We don't automatically get back all of that 3.5 mil if we need it later. we can ONLY use it on the day we need it.

Hell, a team COULD be in cap compliance one day, make no transactions and then the next day NOT be in cap compliance. It all has to do with how and when you recieve your LTIR cap relief. If you don't understand how this is possible it would be impossible to explain it on a chat board.
What you're arguing...has no relation to how the salary cap is actually calculated. The salary cap is determined on a day-to-day, pro-rated salary basis. Trying to remove that understanding, as you've been doing here, is trying to remove the very basis of how the salary cap number is calculated.

You are making it overly complex by all these nebulous references to the LTIR numbers. Forget about them, they don't matter unless the player is going to come back from the IR. Hatcher, Rathje, etc. all the guys that put us over the salary cap number in actual fact...are irrelevant to actually worrying about the Flyers cap number because those guys aren't going to be coming back.

Because here's the point you're missing...by designating them for LTIR and never bringing them back onto the roster, they're gone from the salary cap picture, and ALL of their salary can be replaced against the salary cap.

The salary cap is determined day-to-day on a pro-rated basis. That is how it is calculated. Kukkonen (if he is sent to the minors) will represent 400+K of our cap this year; Hatcher, Rathje, (Primeau still?) etc. will represent 0K of our cap this year.

It is not calculated the way you are saying it's calculated. And what you're saying is just confusing anyone trying to get a clear idea for how it works.

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Old
01-09-2009, 08:32 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
They did this so that they CAN send him down at any time in the next 30 days. We don't have to wait 24 hours once we get a definite date on Brieres return. Kukks is the only one we are considering sending down who would have to pass through waivers, anyone else we can send down without having to wait.
They probably were hoping someone would claim him.

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01-09-2009, 08:34 PM
  #55
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He can be sent down upon being waived. They don't have to wait for him to clear waivers.

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01-09-2009, 09:00 PM
  #56
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Go back and reread the CBA, you are dead wrong. It specifically states that ALL SPC's count INCLUDING any and all players on LTIR. Maybe there is something hidden somewhere else that says if a player is on LTIR for an entire year and not activated the next year that you can remove them from the books but that's not the case for Hatcher. Do you notice that Hatcher has been listed on EVERY IR report for the Flyers this year???? That means flat out that we DO still have to account for him in this year's cap calcualtions. Even if there is some provision for both Rathje and Primeau then we'd still have to get more than 3.5 mil under the cap to gain any headway to add any player who would put us over. I know more so than most that the cap is calculated on a daily basis.

If you can't understand that the ONLY way for us to be able to exceed a cap of 56.7 mil (ie - adding in a contract at the deadline) would be for us to find a way to remove Hatcher from the books (either by trading him or making room, activating him and immediately sending him through waivers) or by getting us below 53.2 mil for a number of days then there is nothing I can do for you, you just don't get it. No, we don't get 100% of Hatchers salary back, sorry but you are most definitely wrong on this one. We have been under 56.7 mil every day this year with our active roster but with Hatcher it doesn't matter, he's eaten up every bit we've been under putting us at the max every single day thus far. Guess what, Hatcher is going to eat up anything under the cap tomorrow too and we'll still be at the limit every day. So tell me Mr Genious, exactly HOW are we going to get our daily pro-rate under $304k including Hatcher???

It's not hard but it is complex. I'll say it again really slow, the only way we can exceed a daily pro-rated cap limit of 56.7 mil is if we either get it below 53.2 mil for a significant number of days (note, we add in Hatcher because his LTIR SPC DOES count) or we trade Hatcher away. Is it worth us to pay a 2nd rnd pick just to get a team to take that headache off our hands (note, I thik that's what NJ had to pay for the same basic thing)???

I've already run the scenarios where a team can be in cap compliance one day and without making any roster moves NOT be in cap compliance the next day because of LTIR eating up accrued cap cusion.

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01-09-2009, 10:32 PM
  #57
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Hatcher is listed on the IR reports because he is on their LTIR...he is a member of the team. However, by placing him on LTIR we can basically go over the salary cap by his entire salary.

Keith Primeau has been in our "cap calculations."

Rathje has been in our "cap calculations..."

But due to their LTIR status they're irrelevant to working out cap compliance based on the understanding you put forward. The only way they would become an issue is if they came back.

Prior to the season we were committed to paying salary in excess of the salary cap you might remember...how did we get under? We put Hatcher on LTIR. The problem for bringing Briere back is that since that point in time we traded for Matt Carle, who makes 3.5M.

The reason we don't trade Hatcher away is because there is no reason to...LTIR works as a means of removing his salary. This was not the case for someone like Gauthier (he was healthy) so they had to waive him to the AHL. For players over 35 years of age when they sign their contracts, the LTIR isn't a way to remove their salary from your cap calculations, which is why Mogilny and Malakhov caused the Devils so many problems a couple years back. Hatcher was not 35 when he signed his contract.

From the CBA

Page 221:

Quote:
For any Player who is on a Club's Active Roster, Injured Reserve,
Injured Non Roster or Non Roster pursuant to an approved and
registered SPC at 5:00 p.m. New York time on a particular day
during a League Year, such Player shall receive his Player Salary
and Bonuses for that day, and such Player Salary and Bonuses
shall be included in the calculation of the Club's Actual Club
Salary and Averaged Club Salary for that day.
Quote:
Any Player who is not on a Club's Active Roster, Injured Reserve,
Injured Non Roster or Non Roster pursuant to an approved and
registered SPC at 5:00 p.m. New York time on a particular day
during a League Year shall be ineligible to play for such Club on
that day, and such Player shall be ineligible to receive Player
Salary and Bonuses from that Club for that day.
LTIR on page 226-7:

Quote:
The replacement Player Salary and Bonuses for any Player(s) that
replace(s) an unfit-to-play Player may be added to the Club's
Averaged Club Salary until such time as the Club's Averaged Club
Salary reaches the Upper Limit. A Club may then exceed the
Upper Limit due to the addition of replacement Player Salary and
Bonuses of Players who have replaced an unfit-to-play Player
,
provided, however, that when the unfit-to-play Player is once again
fit to play (including any period such Player is on a Bona Fide
Long-Term Injury/Illness Exception Conditioning Loan to another
league), the Club shall be required to once again reduce its
Averaged Club Salary to a level at or below the Upper Limit prior
to the Player being able to rejoin the Club.
To the extent any
Player who is unfit-to-play becomes fit to play during the period of
the Roster Freeze set forth in Article 13, the provisions of this
Section 50.10(d)(iv) requiring a Club to come back into
compliance with the Payroll Range shall supersede the provisions
of Article 13 restricting transactions during the Roster Freeze;
What you're seeing in that sentence highlights two things. One of them is what is going on with Briere right now. They've been taking advantage of his LTIR status to use some of his salary space to keep themselves going against the cap right now, but since he's coming back they need to shed some salary to make it work again. Hatcher, Rathje, Primeau, etc. were and are not coming back, therefore the team does not have to make any moves to comply against their LTIR status. While they are factored into numbers and listed on the IR...they are not a factor in any cap decisions this team has to make. Just skim them right off, they don't matter in any discussion of our teams cap moves.


Last edited by Jester: 01-09-2009 at 10:46 PM.
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Old
01-10-2009, 01:22 AM
  #58
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I'm not quoting through all this crap, but I mostly agree with phlocky on this one.

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01-10-2009, 12:16 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
He can be sent down upon being waived. They don't have to wait for him to clear waivers.
They also don't have to send him down immediately. Why risk losing another guy and not having Kukks around?

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01-10-2009, 01:45 PM
  #60
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He's better than Andrew Alberts.

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01-10-2009, 01:56 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by CantSeeColors View Post
They also don't have to send him down immediately. Why risk losing another guy and not having Kukks around?
He's still on the cap anyways. They save on it each day if he's not on the roster.

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01-10-2009, 02:20 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Flyers View Post
He's better than Andrew Alberts.
Can be argued about, but he loses out because Alberts is a role player that we need as a physical presence on the blue line.

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01-10-2009, 02:50 PM
  #63
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This is how I look at the salary cap...

The easiest way to look at it is with the yearly numbers...the 56.whatever million upper limit.

The reason it is calculated on a daily basis is regarding the ESCROW fund.

Worrying about it as a daily number is only taking a 10 piece puzzle and turning it into a 100 piece puzzle.

I've heard people talk about rolling unused daily cap numbers into the next day and so on...but I've looked at the CBA and have never seen anything involving an idea like that.

So if anyone is able to quote the sections of the CBA that provide any insight into calculating the cap number by day that ISN'T because of the escrow fund please do. Because as I said, otherwise it's just making a 10 piece puzzle into a 100 piece puzzle. It's the same picture, just more complicated.

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01-10-2009, 02:53 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
What you're arguing...has no relation to how the salary cap is actually calculated. The salary cap is determined on a day-to-day, pro-rated salary basis. Trying to remove that understanding, as you've been doing here, is trying to remove the very basis of how the salary cap number is calculated.

You are making it overly complex by all these nebulous references to the LTIR numbers. Forget about them, they don't matter unless the player is going to come back from the IR. Hatcher, Rathje, etc. all the guys that put us over the salary cap number in actual fact...are irrelevant to actually worrying about the Flyers cap number because those guys aren't going to be coming back.

Because here's the point you're missing...by designating them for LTIR and never bringing them back onto the roster, they're gone from the salary cap picture, and ALL of their salary can be replaced against the salary cap.

The salary cap is determined day-to-day on a pro-rated basis. That is how it is calculated. Kukkonen (if he is sent to the minors) will represent 400+K of our cap this year; Hatcher, Rathje, (Primeau still?) etc. will represent 0K of our cap this year.

It is not calculated the way you are saying it's calculated. And what you're saying is just confusing anyone trying to get a clear idea for how it works.
This is completely wrong. Hatcher's and Rathje's cap hit can only be replaced to the extent the Flyers have to go over the cap to replace it, not the full salary. You can't 'store up' LTIR savings and use it later in the season. If you don't use it, it is gone.

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01-10-2009, 04:20 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
He's still on the cap anyways. They save on it each day if he's not on the roster.
Yeah, but at his salary, his single day hit is pretty low. They either feel that it's either insignificant (in that it won't affect how many other pieces they have to move) or it's worth the price as an insurance policy in case someone else gets hurt before Briere's return. That or they just don't grasp that it's important, but I'm sure someone up there knows what's going on.

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01-10-2009, 08:50 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by MountainHawk View Post
This is completely wrong. Hatcher's and Rathje's cap hit can only be replaced to the extent the Flyers have to go over the cap to replace it, not the full salary. You can't 'store up' LTIR savings and use it later in the season. If you don't use it, it is gone.
I've been trying to explain this to him but it's just not working. Jester, I know everything you quoted from the CBA and I know how it works. However, what is incorrect in your calculations is that the Flyers don't get back ALL for the salaries for the players on LTIR. If they did then you would be right and we would basically be able to remove their entire cap number off the books. If, at the end of the season we have had 10 mil in LTIR salary paid out and we have only spent 55.7 mil in active roster player salary (cap wise, not actual money paid out, Briere gets 10 mil this year but only 6.5 towards the cap, again pro-rated for days on the active roster) then at the end of the season, when the final finacial report for the Flyers is filed we will NOT have recieved 10 mil in medacal alloances, we will ONLY recieve 9 mil in medical allowances. Our final salary cap payout for the season will be 65.7 mil with 9 mil in medical aloowances. That 9 mil we acrued in medical allowances is gained on a daily basis, not as a lump sum at the end of the season.

At not time can a teams unpaid cap space plus their accrued medcal allowances permit them to drop below and average prorated (calcualted on a per day basis) of 56.7 mil (for this season every team must be able to pay out at least $304k, this seasons single day average of the 56.7 mil over the 186 day season). I guarrentee you that today our one day cap salary paid out is greater than $304k with all the LTIR salary we have on the books. We are probably sitting at around 350-360k with about 60-70k in LTIR salary. I also guarrentee you that we DO NOT get all of that LTIR salary back today, we ONLY get back any that puts us over being able to average $304k per day for the remaining days.

Again, it is theoretically possible for the Flyers to get under the cap even with their LTIR players and begin to accrue some cusion that would let us add a player who would put us over the $304k daily average but comeon, you're basically asking for a miricle and we'd have to gut the team. To get that far under you can say goodbye to at least 3 of and probably 4 of Briere, Gagne, Carter, Richards, Timonen and Hartnell. It's not going to happen. Telling guys on here that we "could do it" and "can add a 2 mill player later even through we only have 1 mil in free space (ie- we would be sitting at 55.7 mil pre player addition and 57.7 post player addition) gives some of these guys who DON'T fully understand the cap false hope or belief.

Have you actually done the daily calculations for the Flyers at any point this season??? I have. I've studied it intently. I've gone though the first week doing it on a daily basis. I've done it for what the Flyers actually spent including their LTIR money, I've computed how much was actually spent in LTIR, I have the running minimum amount necessary for every team to have remaining in their unspent cap money plus injury allowances to maintain the minimum daily average of $304k. You take how much the Flyers actually have left after paying out for today, add in any PREVIOUSLY aquired injury moneys and then if this number is LESS than the amount need to maintain a $304k daily average for the rest of the season then a team iecieves additional medical money euqal to this difference PROVIDED IT DOES NOT EXCEED WHAT THAT DAYS LTIR MONEY PAID EQUALS. If this difference is GREATER than the amount the team had paid in LTIR for that day then the team in not in cap compliance and that's when the trouble begins.

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01-10-2009, 08:57 PM
  #67
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Here's another thing, the Flyers have not one day this year had an active roster salary cap number exceeding 56.7 mil. By your logic Jester with the Flyers getting back ALL of the salaries for ALL players on LTIR and essentially removing them from all consideration then the Flyers have accrued some significant cap room and COULD right now have an active roster salary cap in excess of 56.7 mil. We shold only have to trim around a mil in unpaid cap salary with the cap space we've accrued We could get under that limit simply by sending down the Phantoms we've recently called up. Why then are we talking about sending Sbisa back and sending down Kukkonen, a player whiom we had to place on waivers and have pass through waivers before we could use him to get under? The truth is that we HAVE NOT accrued any cap cusion. LTIR eats up any cap cusion you have for that day BEFORE you are in consideration for and injury cap relief. Plus you only get cap relief for the amount you are over.

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01-10-2009, 09:32 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by chaosof99 View Post
Can be argued about, but he loses out because Alberts is a role player that we need as a physical presence on the blue line.
you must not be watching this game. Andrew Alberts is an offensive force with a wicked wrist shot


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01-10-2009, 11:04 PM
  #69
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I think this whole salary cap cushion is a job for Irish Blues Who is with me on this?? This is supposed to be a thread about Kukkonen being waived but mods could you PM irish Blues and have him settle this dispute once and for all please

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01-10-2009, 11:13 PM
  #70
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Well, if the new, and false, rumors about Forsberg are true, there is no way Kukkonen can't be on the team, as the Flyers will need more sub $1M players.

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01-11-2009, 03:18 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
Jones, Alberts and Modry each played their best hockey with the Flyers while playing with Kukkonen. That doesn't mean Kukkonen is great, but the shoe fits.

With Sbisa, everyone's arguably played their worst. That's why he can't get a consistent partner. Again, not saying Sbisa is terrible, but the shoe doesn't fit. And if he's filing in and out of the lineup with Alberts, that's not the responsible thing to do either. And if Kukkonen is claimed, that's not enough salary off the cap.
The reason for this is NOT because Kukkonen is remotely good or works well others or anything, it ONLY has to do with the FACT tha Kukkonen only ever plays on the 3rd pairing and only goes up against the other teams 3rd or4th line if we can help it. Put any of those guys out with Kukkonen against the other teams top 2 lines on a regular basis and I guarrentee you we'd be screaming our heads off at all of them. Hell, Let Jones play with Timonen against the other teams 3rd and 4th lines and Jones-Timonen will look like 2 Norris Trophy canidates.

Sbisa is what he is, in-esperienced which is why he needs to go back to juniors. He still has a whole lot to learn just about playing the posiation and he's not going to get the proper "teaching" in the NHL. This type of "teaching" is to be done at the amature level, not the pro level (not even the AHL to be honest with you).

I saw a lot of people who saw that on the surface this was true but when you dig just a little bit beneath the surface you can easily discover the reasons for what you think you see as truth. I don;t think it takes a rocket scientist to understand that ANYPLAYER would look better when playing against 3rd and 4th line players as opposed to playing against 1st and 2nd line players. Think about it.

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01-11-2009, 11:17 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
The reason for this is NOT because Kukkonen is remotely good or works well others or anything, it ONLY has to do with the FACT tha Kukkonen only ever plays on the 3rd pairing and only goes up against the other teams 3rd or4th line if we can help it. Put any of those guys out with Kukkonen against the other teams top 2 lines on a regular basis and I guarrentee you we'd be screaming our heads off at all of them. Hell, Let Jones play with Timonen against the other teams 3rd and 4th lines and Jones-Timonen will look like 2 Norris Trophy canidates.

Sbisa is what he is, in-esperienced which is why he needs to go back to juniors. He still has a whole lot to learn just about playing the posiation and he's not going to get the proper "teaching" in the NHL. This type of "teaching" is to be done at the amature level, not the pro level (not even the AHL to be honest with you).

I saw a lot of people who saw that on the surface this was true but when you dig just a little bit beneath the surface you can easily discover the reasons for what you think you see as truth. I don;t think it takes a rocket scientist to understand that ANYPLAYER would look better when playing against 3rd and 4th line players as opposed to playing against 1st and 2nd line players. Think about it.
So, in essence, Kukkonen is a good third pairing defenseman, just like GKJ said.

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01-11-2009, 11:58 AM
  #73
phlocky
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Originally Posted by CantSeeColors View Post
So, in essence, Kukkonen is a good third pairing defenseman, just like GKJ said.
Nope, I'm saying that Kukkonen has NOTHING to do with how well these guys do or dont play, it ONLY has to do with where they play in the lineup. If Modry, Alberts or Jones are asked to play 1st or 2nd pairing with ANYBODY, even if it were with Kukkonen, they'd look like floaters in the toilet. Put them with just about anybody on the 2rd pairing and they are just fine. The logic doesn't fit for Kukkonen to be called the reason for those other guys having played well.

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01-11-2009, 12:02 PM
  #74
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Kukkonen BLOWS. Alberts is physical is a decent skater and has 10 points. Alberts plays on the PK. Very good 3rd pairing guy.

Kukkonen is soft. Cant skate. Always takes himself out of the play sliding across like ice thinking he is J-roll trying to block a shot. There is a reason Kukkonen isn't playing and it isn't because Stevens hates him.

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01-11-2009, 07:26 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Flyersfan1216 View Post
Kukkonen BLOWS. Alberts is physical is a decent skater and has 10 points. Alberts plays on the PK. Very good 3rd pairing guy.

Kukkonen is soft. Cant skate. Always takes himself out of the play sliding across like ice thinking he is J-roll trying to block a shot. There is a reason Kukkonen isn't playing and it isn't because Stevens hates him.
I'll take Kukkonen over Andrew Alberts any day of the week.

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