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2009 Roster Moves and Contract Talks. Contract Numbers (Post #1/#826).

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Old
01-02-2009, 08:14 PM
  #26
VooX
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Originally Posted by A1Portable View Post
Look at it this way: If you knew you could have Hossa, Z, and Franzen if you wanted, would you take them? What the @*&#%! Is this a trick question? Of course you would! Well, that's the positoin the Wings are in. They can have all those guys if they want them. All they have to do is simply release/trade as much salary as necessary to keep them. Think about it. Letting Hossa or Franzen walk is just like releasing other guys on the team, so why not release the other guys and sign Hossa and Franzen?

This does not seem like a hard choice.
Ask the Bolts about over spending on three stars and where it got them. There has to be a balance. We can't forget about the summer of 2010 either.

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01-02-2009, 09:15 PM
  #27
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I would re-sign Franzen instead of Hossa anyday. Harder to replace a big guy like that, what if Holmström get long time injury. Then there are no big offensive guys. We need one.

There will always come a new player like Hossa. Got plenty of dept, some of them is going to grab a spot and stick to it.

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01-02-2009, 09:30 PM
  #28
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You make good points Solo, but I don't think I am willing to go so far as to say Filpulla will be traded. I know that the salary cap has only been around for several years and some of the dogmas are being re-written regarding ways to build teams. However in his entire GM history, IIRC, Holland has never traded someone with a few years left on his contract, let alone someone he just signed to a deal.

I really don't think we will be making any trade deadline moves this year. As you point out, we have little trade bait, beyond Filpulla, which I think won't happen. Unless there is a crisis, which so far there hasn't been, we should be standing pat.

You mentioned points from Holland's interview earlier that I had forgotten to include:



What also must be mentioned is the understanding that under the salary cap, we will count on prospects and cheap RFA deals to fill our roster more than ever. We can't have enough superstars, but we also can't have enough talented guys we ice for a cheap price. A perfect example is the amazing value Franzen's contract gave us throughout 2008. We will pay in the summer of 2009, to be sure, but until then guys like Franzen and Hudler are what will put us over the top on the depth charts.

In our contract negotiations, I believe two contracts will stand as bookends: Cleary's and Lidstrom's.

Cleary's contract will provide the floor for all talented players to negotiate as a baseline. I feel he was paid a half million too much, and that may trickle down to paying people more than we would like. Certainly Cleary's performance since signing the contract fell off, especially since coming back from the broken jaw and also the eye problems. Franzen will certainly want more than a marginally higher salary than Cleary given the relative impact of the two players.

Lidstrom's contract will keep high salary demands in check. The sketchy economic future and Lidstrom's contract may keep Zetterberg closer to $8 million per season than $9 million.

Either way, between Franzen who we can likely sign for less than $5 million, Zetterberg who will be around $8 million, and trying to get good value from depth guys like Sammy or Hudler (preferably), Hossa will certainly be the odd man out and be gone next year.
Well i said filp is most likely to be traded not will be traded. I personally dont think he will be. Honestly even if we get rid of Filp freeing up 2Mil in cap space (his replacement would cost 1M) I dont think that helps us sign franzen or Hossa all the much. I think we in a similar situation. So my physic ball reading if I had to perdict is...

Filp stays, Kronwall stays, Zetterberg Stays 7.5M, Hossa walks, Franzen stays, Hudler walks (hopefully we get a return), Sammy signs at 1.25M or walks.

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01-03-2009, 01:47 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by VooX View Post
Ask the Bolts about over spending on three stars and where it got them. There has to be a balance. We can't forget about the summer of 2010 either.
Bolts screwup was only partially spending on the big three players. The major problem was their prospect pipeline ruptured and they didn't develop enough young cheaper talent to offset the big contracts allowing them to field a balanced roster.

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01-05-2009, 12:29 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by SirKillalot View Post
I would re-sign Franzen instead of Hossa anyday. Harder to replace a big guy like that, what if Holmström get long time injury. Then there are no big offensive guys. We need one.

There will always come a new player like Hossa. Got plenty of dept, some of them is going to grab a spot and stick to it.
I'm now starting to think we should re-sign Franzen before Zetterberg. It's hard to argue against 18 goals, while Z has faded badly in the last dozen games or so.

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01-05-2009, 12:38 PM
  #31
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What do you mean by faded badly? Seems like Z has become more of a playmaker this season. Not surprisingly since his role is quite different than last year and has been playing with Franzen and now Hossa. For most of last season (and his entire career) Z was the trigger man for Datsyuk.

I've said it a few times now but Hossa is a luxury, if he can fit in better than Franzen after the season, cool. But he's not someone to push us over the top since we're already there. Hossa has been fantastic but he's not completely necessary.

Zetterberg having a down year in goals (for now) isn't going to make me believe he's somehow less valuable than his Conn Smythe winning performance last playoffs. Z is more important than Franzen or Hossa.

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01-11-2009, 09:36 AM
  #32
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I'm on the iphone, so I can't quote or link to it, BUT

The Hockey News today reports that Hossa is already in contract negotiations to stay another year. His agent says he has enjoyed his time on the team, and Holland said they are sharing with Hossa the expectations that people like Franzen and Zetterberg will be taking less than market value to stay, seeing if Hossa will buy-in to the team's philosophy.

This is good news as Hossa is showing he doesn't NEED the cup to stay.

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01-11-2009, 11:15 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by VooX View Post
I'm on the iphone, so I can't quote or link to it, BUT

The Hockey News today reports that Hossa is already in contract negotiations to stay another year. His agent says he has enjoyed his time on the team, and Holland said they are sharing with Hossa the expectations that people like Franzen and Zetterberg will be taking less than market value to stay, seeing if Hossa will buy-in to the team's philosophy.

This is good news as Hossa is showing he doesn't NEED the cup to stay.
Interesting...

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01-11-2009, 11:35 AM
  #34
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I could see Hossa taking a one year deal if its already known that Lidstrom will retire this year or next with a cup win. Maybe Nick wants to go out on top? On the other hand, on the NHL Network's "Captains Driven" show, filmed this season, he called this the "middle of his career". So who knows, maybe he'll play till 50. His style allows it.

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01-11-2009, 11:38 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Zune View Post
I could see Hossa taking a one year deal if its already known that Lidstrom will retire this year or next with a cup win. Maybe Nick wants to go out on top? On the other hand, on the NHL Network's "Captains Driven" show, filmed this season, he called this the "middle of his career". So who knows, maybe he'll play till 50. His style allows it.
he often said in interviews that he wants to finish his career while still being good. if he notices a dramatic slow down, he will retire.
that's why i think next season will be his last.

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01-11-2009, 12:01 PM
  #36
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Craig Custance at The Sporting News adds this bit... kind of like we've speculated. Holland has laid his plan and where things are with the other two main UFA0-to-be's...


http://today.sportingnews.com/sporti...pm=1&u1=friend

 
Old
01-11-2009, 12:57 PM
  #37
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correction. It was the SPORTING news article I had seen. Thanks for the link Fugu, that is exactly the story I read.

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01-11-2009, 01:19 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by SirKillalot View Post
I would re-sign Franzen instead of Hossa anyday. Harder to replace a big guy like that, what if Holmström get long time injury. Then there are no big offensive guys. We need one.

There will always come a new player like Hossa. Got plenty of dept, some of them is going to grab a spot and stick to it.
I also think Franzen should be resigned because think about it, in a few years Holmstrom will be retiring and Franzen is the best replacement for in front of the net.

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01-11-2009, 01:58 PM
  #39
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Holmstrom-Datsyuk-Franzen
Hudler-Flip-Hossa

I like that lineup and will certainly come cheaper than Z + Franzen.

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01-11-2009, 02:02 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zune View Post
Holmstrom-Datsyuk-Franzen
Hudler-Flip-Hossa

I like that lineup and will certainly come cheaper than Z + Franzen.
How do you figure?

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01-11-2009, 02:06 PM
  #41
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How do you figure?
Hossa has actively gone out of his way to play for the Red Wings. He turned down $90 million gauranteed to play here and obviously likes the lineup.

On the other hand, Z is purposely dragging his feet in an attempt to get a lifetime contract which would be insane. The cap is going to drastically drop over the next two seasons, back to levels of when Datsyuk signed his deal. If Hossa or Z aren't happy with $6.7 million, theres always someone else out there that will be.

Plus, we already have a second line center in Flip wasting away on the third line. Hossa is the goal scorer, pseudo power forward everyone has been looking for since 2004. All of this including Datsyuk, makes Zetterberg redundant. If Z will take a clone of the Datsyuk deal, than fine, keep him around.

But at this point, his post Conn Smyth hype is too high to justify his price tag. Tampa made that mistake with Richards, the Wings shouldn't fall into the same trap.

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01-11-2009, 02:26 PM
  #42
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Sorry for not reading the above posts, just a tad too lazy at the moment.
I would like to see Holland lock up Hank, Hudler and Mule. I know Hossa is a great addition to the team, but we have to look at things realistically here. We can't lock up both Hank and Hossa, and frankly, Zetterberg is the future of the team, he's go the C as soon as Nick hangs 'em up. Hudler is a great depth player who has emerged with a blast this year, along with Franzen who has shown his goal scoring ability. Depth is much more important than star talent, which Detroit doesn't have a lack of.
To make rom for Hudler's and Franzen's contracts, I wouldn't be surprised to see Filppula moved, as he hasn't lived up to his $3 million so far. In my opinion, he'll grow into it in due time, but it is an option, although I'm not sure if he has any kind of no movement clause...?

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01-11-2009, 02:34 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zune View Post
Hossa has actively gone out of his way to play for the Red Wings. He turned down $90 million gauranteed to play here and obviously likes the lineup.
Yep, but Hossa isn't going to take a paycut from his 7.45m per year. Don't forget Holland already offered Hossa a long term deal which he rejected to sign a 1 year deal. He loves playing in Detroit but like every other player he loves his money too.

Quote:
On the other hand, Z is purposely dragging his feet in an attempt to get a lifetime contract which would be insane.
Dragging his feet as much as Datsyuk did during his negotiations.

Quote:
The cap is going to drastically drop over the next two seasons, back to levels of when Datsyuk signed his deal. If Hossa or Z aren't happy with $6.7 million, theres always someone else out there that will be.
Who?

Quote:
Plus, we already have a second line center in Flip wasting away on the third line. Hossa is the goal scorer, pseudo power forward everyone has been looking for since 2004. All of this including Datsyuk, makes Zetterberg redundant. If Z will take a clone of the Datsyuk deal, than fine, keep him around.
Filppula makes Z redundant?

Quote:
But at this point, his post Conn Smyth hype is too high to justify his price tag. Tampa made that mistake with Richards, the Wings shouldn't fall into the same trap.
Z is only getting a contract similar to Datsyuk's because of his Conn Smythe? The Smythe plays into negotiations but he was getting 7+ regardless.

Oh and welcome back. I like the new username.


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01-11-2009, 02:42 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Zune View Post
Hossa has actively gone out of his way to play for the Red Wings. He turned down $90 million gauranteed to play here and obviously likes the lineup.

On the other hand, Z is purposely dragging his feet in an attempt to get a lifetime contract which would be insane. The cap is going to drastically drop over the next two seasons, back to levels of when Datsyuk signed his deal. If Hossa or Z aren't happy with $6.7 million, theres always someone else out there that will be.

Plus, we already have a second line center in Flip wasting away on the third line. Hossa is the goal scorer, pseudo power forward everyone has been looking for since 2004. All of this including Datsyuk, makes Zetterberg redundant. If Z will take a clone of the Datsyuk deal, than fine, keep him around.

But at this point, his post Conn Smyth hype is too high to justify his price tag. Tampa made that mistake with Richards, the Wings shouldn't fall into the same trap.
The difference between Hank and Richards? Hank>Richards. Hank's not overrated and still performs to that level.

By the way, what was your old username?

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01-11-2009, 02:58 PM
  #45
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Yep, but Hossa isn't going to take a paycut from his 7.45m per year. Don't forget Holland already offered Hossa a long term deal which he rejected to sign a 1 year deal. He loves playing in Detroit but like every other player he loves his money too.



Dragging his feet as much as Datsyuk did during his negotiations.



Who?



Filppula makes Z redundant?



Z is only getting a contract similar to Datsyuk's because of his Conn Smythe? The Smythe plays into negotiations but he was getting 7+ regardless.

Oh and welcome back. I like the new username.
Zetterberg's Conn Smyth is pointless when the discussion is Zetterberg vs Hossa. Hossa would have won the Smyth if Pittsburgh won and lets not forget, if the puck curved an inch more, Hossa would have tied game 6.

Zetterberg wasn't head and shoulders above everyone in the playoffs, his Smyth is hardly a negotiating tool. Its obvious that Holland wants to lockup Hossa now. It forces Zetterberg or his agents hand.

And Datsyuk never held out for a ten year, lifetime contract... Oh and lets not forget, Zetterberg was actually paid MORE during his first five seasons than Datsyuk.

"Market Value" isn't a word that makes sense for the Red Wings. Lidstrom would be making $10 million and so would Datsyuk. $7.5 or $8.5 million isn't a "Pay cut" of any sorts for Zetterberg. $6.7 is a paycut that shows he actually has some dedication to this team.

$67 million over ten years? Has such a nice ring too it.

What other players, in place of Z? You could sign Gaborik or Bouwmeester. Bouwmeester for Rafalski money and Gaborik to an incentives based contract since hes been injured so frequently.

And yes, Zetterberg is redundant on a team with Hossa, Datsyuk and Flip. And theres no way the Wings will trade Flip. Hes too young and his contract is decent for a second line center. Theres really no sense in spending tons of cash on a core of Z, Hossa, Franzen, Rafalski and Datsyuk. You need to have young players around to keep things fresh.

Zetterberg has shown that hes not the same player unless paired with Datsyuk. And Hossa is too good to pass up on. He can play by himself, much like Datsyuk. Which is why he doesn't need a guy like Zetterberg centering him, when Flip could do just as well.

Face facts, Z is redundant. He makes Flip basically worthless and overpaid and Draper has been reduced to a shell of his former. Why overpay for two players to keep Zetterberg?

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01-11-2009, 03:03 PM
  #46
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The difference between Hank and Richards? Hank>Richards. Hank's not overrated and still performs to that level.

By the way, what was your old username?
Richards' Conn Smyth season:

82 games, 79 points

Richards' Conn Smyth Playoffs:

23 games, 12 goals, 26 points.

Zetterberg's season

75 games, 92 points

Playoffs:

22 games, 13 goals, 27 points.

Richards and Zetterberg's situation are perfectly comparable. Both are the second best skaters on their teams, that just so happened to win a conn smyth in their contract year.

Theres no sense in overpaying for an award that based largely on team success, especially when said player didn't blow away the competition.

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01-11-2009, 03:06 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zune View Post
Zetterberg's Conn Smyth is pointless when the discussion is Zetterberg vs Hossa. Hossa would have won the Smyth if Pittsburgh won and lets not forget, if the puck curved an inch more, Hossa would have tied game 6.
This entire passage is pointless since it didn't happen.

Quote:
And Datsyuk never held out for a ten year, lifetime contract... Oh and lets not forget, Zetterberg was actually paid MORE during his first five seasons than Datsyuk.
No he wasn't. Curtesoy of HiHD:

Pavel Datsyuk's first 5 years in Detroit = 10.625 mil.
Henrik Zetterberg's first 5 years in Detroit = 9.5 mil.

We have no idea what the hold up is in this deal. What was the holdup with Datsyuk's negations?

Quote:
What other players, in place of Z? You could sign Gaborik or Bouwmeester. Bouwmeester for Rafalski money and Gaborik to an incentives based contract since hes been injured so frequently.
Or Gaborik could take 7+ from a team like LA, Martin Havlat got 6+ and Gaborik is better than him. Bouwmeester will get more than 7+ as well. Considering what Brian Campbell just got.

Quote:
Zetterberg has shown that hes not the same player unless paired with Datsyuk. And Hossa is too good to pass up on. He can play by himself, much like Datsyuk. Which is why he doesn't need a guy like Zetterberg centering him, when Flip could do just as well.

Face facts, Z is redundant. He makes Flip basically worthless and overpaid and Draper has been reduced to a shell of his former. Why overpay for two players to keep Zetterberg?
Z's shown he has a different role when not playing with Datsyuk. He's still dominant defensively and very good offensively. You need two elite centers to win in the playoffs. Hossa is a luxury, Z is a necessity.

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01-11-2009, 03:18 PM
  #48
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Z's shown he has a different role when not playing with Datsyuk. He's still dominant defensively and very good offensively. You need two elite centers to win in the playoffs. Hossa is a luxury, Z is a necessity.
i still think filppula is as dominant as Z defensively. but Z can play W if needed. Z can actually play everything. i guess he could be even a D. that's what makes him much more useful than hossa who is stuck at W and can pretty much only shoot. hossa is an elite scorer with good defense, Z is a an elite 2way player on W/C.

Z, franzen and huds would be nice to re-sign. the rest would be a nice plus, but nothing necessary.

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01-11-2009, 03:49 PM
  #49
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Zetterberg ISN'T an elite center without Datsyuk on his wing. Its that simple. Sure, any player could take a $9 million dollar a year contract from LA, it doesn't mean they're worth it.

Z is currently currently..

8 points back from Datsyuk.
8 points back from Iginla
10 points back from Thornton

All three signed for less than $7. Two of them were considered "Elite" players before signing, all three took discounts to stay with their teams.

15 points back from Ovechkin
16 points back from Crosby
26 points back from Malkin

All three players make over $8.5 million per season.

Now all of these contracts were signed within the last two seasons, so stop acting like we're comparing different eras. The economy is in the *******, everyone knows it. The league is at risk of losing teams.

Most people would put Zetterberg behind Iginla, Thornton and Datsyuk. So he has no business being paid like Crosby, Malkin or Ovechkin.

This has nothing to do with "Inflation" or even Market Value. The first three players I listed took well less than market value. They all could have signed deals with LA or any other terrible team for tons of cash. On the other hand, they took major discounts for the betterment of the team.

Datsyuk's playoff slump has nothing to do with it. With the way GMs were handing out contracts in 2006, he would have been a Flyer making nine mill a season, instead of Briere.

Everyone recognizes Datsyuk as the better player, its completely unnecessary for Zetterberg to be paid more.

PS: Gaborik could be signed to an incentive based deal.

Homer-Datsyuk-Franzen
Gaborik-Flip-Hossa
Kopecky-Helm-Cleary
x-Draper-Maltby

This thread is a perfect example of the one flaw of the Wings management and fans. They're too loyal.

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01-11-2009, 04:20 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Zune View Post
Everyone recognizes Datsyuk as the better player, its completely unnecessary for Zetterberg to be paid more.

PS: Gaborik could be signed to an incentive based deal.

Homer-Datsyuk-Franzen
Gaborik-Flip-Hossa
Kopecky-Helm-Cleary
x-Draper-Maltby

This thread is a perfect example of the one flaw of the Wings management and fans. They're too loyal.
Why has Zetterberg fallen out of favor so quickly with Wings fans? He's coming off a Conn Smythe, scoring at a PPG pace while playing elite defense, and everyone is throwing him under the bus... This guy is the Wings' future captain.

Amazing what a "slow start" can do to a guy's reputation. Datsyuk has been better so far this season, but it's still arguable as to who the better player is. The bottom line is that on any given night, either of them can play like the best forward in the league.

PS: No he can't. The player has to be on an entry-level contract or over 35 years old to sign an incentive-based deal.

I'll trust the Wings management (that has brought the team and fans four cups in eleven years) over HF's armchair GM's -- look at what you just said: Dump Zetterberg, re-sign Hossa and Franzen, then throw Gaborik a contract that isn't allowed under the CBA. Sounds easy the way you put it.

Edit: After doing some research, signing Gaborik to an incentive-based deal will probably be possible (he'd have to sign a one year deal and be disabled for 100+ days) but there's no chance he'd do that. Teams are going to line up to sign him regardless of his injury history.


Last edited by Ricelund: 01-11-2009 at 04:30 PM.
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