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Old
01-11-2009, 06:32 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by Flyers View Post
I'll take Kukkonen over Andrew Alberts any day of the week.
there's a reason why Alberts is in the lineup and Kukkonen is on waivers. Alberts>>>Kukk's.

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01-11-2009, 06:32 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
Well, if the new, and false, rumors about Forsberg are true, there is no way Kukkonen can't be on the team, as the Flyers will need more sub $1M players.
Their not false. Some guy (His name escapes me atm) on HNIC said "Their might be another swede making his return, Peter Forsberg has quietly contacted teams about him coming back, and Paul Holmgren has expressed interest back" or something along the lines.

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01-11-2009, 06:39 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Banger View Post
there's a reason why Alberts is in the lineup and Kukkonen is on waivers. Alberts>>>Kukk's.
Woah three greater-than signs. You're right then.

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01-11-2009, 07:37 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Flyersfan1216 View Post
Kukkonen BLOWS. Alberts is physical is a decent skater and has 10 points. Alberts plays on the PK. Very good 3rd pairing guy.

Kukkonen is soft. Cant skate. Always takes himself out of the play sliding across like ice thinking he is J-roll trying to block a shot. There is a reason Kukkonen isn't playing and it isn't because Stevens hates him.
He doesn't "blow".

But the marketplace has spoken - and the bargain defenseman who is adored by so many has passed through waivers TWICE in the past 90 days. There is something to be gleaned from that.


Last edited by JXC: 01-12-2009 at 07:48 AM.
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01-11-2009, 07:41 PM
  #80
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There is truth is Kukks not being claimed yet, love the guy but he's just not a guy we need right now. Hell, I put him on waivers in NHL 09 and he wasnt claimed.

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01-11-2009, 08:09 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Hextall89 View Post
There is truth is Kukks not being claimed yet, love the guy but he's just not a guy we need right now. Hell, I put him on waivers in NHL 09 and he wasnt claimed.
I put Lupul on waivers (he was rated something like an 86 by this particular season of my dynasty) and he cleared. That doesn't mean much. Jones clears, too.

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01-12-2009, 12:08 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Dig Out Your Soul View Post
I put Lupul on waivers (he was rated something like an 86 by this particular season of my dynasty) and he cleared. That doesn't mean much. Jones clears, too.
I wasn't really serious, just a little tidbit. Jones clears for me everytime and people like Ben Eager and Ken Klee always get picked up.

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01-12-2009, 01:06 AM
  #83
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kuks is a 7th dman, and while jones is still around an 8th dman. not a whole lot of value there

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01-12-2009, 03:36 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Coolix View Post
Their not false. Some guy (His name escapes me atm) on HNIC said "Their might be another swede making his return, Peter Forsberg has quietly contacted teams about him coming back, and Paul Holmgren has expressed interest back" or something along the lines.
I don't care if it came on stone tablets from the words of the burning bush, it's not happening.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyersfan1216 View Post
Kukkonen BLOWS. Alberts is physical is a decent skater and has 10 points. Alberts plays on the PK. Very good 3rd pairing guy.

Kukkonen is soft. Cant skate. Always takes himself out of the play sliding across like ice thinking he is J-roll trying to block a shot. There is a reason Kukkonen isn't playing and it isn't because Stevens hates him.
Kukkonen actually does play PK, and yes he can skate. He skates enough that he plays up front as well. In Finland, they won't put you on the ice if you aren't a good enough skater.

If anything, we've learned that the Flyers assessment of players is not always correct. Ask Paul Holmgren if they'd like that Patrick Sharp trade back.


Last edited by GKJ: 01-12-2009 at 08:08 AM.
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Old
01-12-2009, 07:53 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
I don't care if it came on stone tablets from the words of the burning bush, it's not happening.



Kukkonen actually does play PK, and yes he can skate. He skates enough that he plays up front as well. In Finland, they won't put you on the ice if you aren't a good enough skater.

Like I've said, each of the lower defensemen have played their best with Kukkonen. Earlier in the season when Jackson and Jones and everyone else here were singing Alberts' praises, claiming he was the most steady defenseman at the time, he was playing with Kukkonen.
So do other teams not want a steadying influence on their defense? The guy could be had for nothing but his salary and he was not picked up twice. With Jones and Parent back he's their 9th defensemen. He's ok to throw out there for 12 mins a game to give some guys a breather on the off night but that's about it. Some people really have a love affair with the guy and I really don't get it.

The fact that no one has selected him off waivers twice says all that needs to be said....

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01-12-2009, 07:55 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Banger View Post
The fact that no one has selected him off waivers twice says all that needs to be said....
Indeed it does.

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01-12-2009, 08:20 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Banger View Post
So do other teams not want a steadying influence on their defense? The guy could be had for nothing but his salary and he was not picked up twice. With Jones and Parent back he's their 9th defensemen. He's ok to throw out there for 12 mins a game to give some guys a breather on the off night but that's about it. Some people really have a love affair with the guy and I really don't get it.

The fact that no one has selected him off waivers twice says all that needs to be said....
You don't get it because you don't watch when he's on the ice. I didn't say he's great, I didn't even say he's a steadying influence, he's made his share of mistakes. I said, when guys play with him, the shoe fits, they play better with him. That's not different than most of the other 29 NHL teams having a similar player. He's probably going to end up in Finland next year anyways just due to a league-wide numbers game.

We've seen more than a handful of trades where someone who was just on waivers was traded directly afterward. When you have a player, you don't have just the player but his contract too. There's been quite a few players who passed through waivers this season who certainly have established themselves as NHL players.

What if I told you Kukkonen averages more SH TOI per game than Holmgren's golden boy Luca Sbisa? The same guy who beat out Ryan Parent for a spot on the team (or so we were told).

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01-12-2009, 08:36 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
You don't get it because you don't watch when he's on the ice. I didn't say he's great, I didn't even say he's a steadying influence, he's made his share of mistakes. I said, when guys play with him, the shoe fits, they play better with him. That's not different than most of the other 29 NHL teams having a similar player. He's probably going to end up in Finland next year anyways just due to a league-wide numbers game.

We've seen more than a handful of trades where someone who was just on waivers was traded directly afterward. When you have a player, you don't have just the player but his contract too. There's been quite a few players who passed through waivers this season who certainly have established themselves as NHL players.

What if I told you Kukkonen averages more SH TOI per game than Holmgren's golden boy Luca Sbisa? The same guy who beat out Ryan Parent for a spot on the team (or so we were told).
That wouldn't surprise me at all because Kukk doesn't have to skate and can just jump in front of shots and block them. That's Kukk's best attribute and that's the opportunity to best utilize it so it makes total sense that they would insert him over Sbisa in that role. How does Kukk's time compare with the golden boy on the PP?

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01-12-2009, 08:39 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Banger View Post
That wouldn't surprise me at all because Kukk doesn't have to skate and can just jump in front of shots and block them. That's Kukk's best attribute and that's the opportunity to best utilize it so it makes total sense that they would insert him over Sbisa in that role. How does Kukk's time compare with the golden boy on the PP?
Power play is different. You only use certain players for power plays. Penalty killing, any defenseman on your roster is (should be) expected to be able to kill penalties. You do not ask the same for power plays.

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01-12-2009, 08:43 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
Power play is different. You only use certain players for power plays. Penalty killing, any defenseman on your roster is (should be) expected to be able to kill penalties. You do not ask the same for power plays.
You have specialists for both and it doesn't surprise me one bit that they try to utilize Kukk's best attribute. Sbisa certainly isn't incapable of playing the PK but at this point there are players on the roster that can fill that role better than he can. Once he puts on some size and strength on his frame he'll be out there in every situation.

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01-12-2009, 09:05 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Banger View Post
You have specialists for both and it doesn't surprise me one bit that they try to utilize Kukk's best attribute. Sbisa certainly isn't incapable of playing the PK but at this point there are players on the roster that can fill that role better than he can. Once he puts on some size and strength on his frame he'll be out there in every situation.
Specialists at both?

SH TOI/G
Timonen 4:59
Coburn 4:06
Vaananen 3:43
Alberts 2:47
Jones 2:24
Carle 1:35
Kukkonen 1:20
Sbisa 0:09


PP TOI/G
Timonen 4:26
Coburn 2:51
Carle 2:17
Sbisa 1:40
Jones 1:18
Alberts 0:08
Kukkonen 0:02

A little bit of a larger disparity, top to bottom.

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01-12-2009, 09:17 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
Specialists at both?

SH TOI/G
Timonen 4:59
Coburn 4:06
Vaananen 3:43
Alberts 2:47
Jones 2:24
Carle 1:35
Kukkonen 1:20
Sbisa 0:09


PP TOI/G
Timonen 4:26
Coburn 2:51
Carle 2:17
Sbisa 1:40
Jones 1:18
Alberts 0:08
Kukkonen 0:02

A little bit of a larger disparity, top to bottom.
I was thinking of players specifically like Hatcher who are better utilized on the PK due to the size/positioning/strength. At the end of the day though what's the point? So in Kukk's 12-15 mins of ice time he plays 1 min/game on the PK, big deal. He's not a better player than Sbisa or Alberts or Parent or Jones or Carle or Vaananen or Timo or Coburn. He was waived and no one wanted him at his reasonable salary of $875K. He's a decent body to chew up some minutes, nothing more.

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01-12-2009, 09:22 AM
  #93
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I was thinking of players specifically like Hatcher who are better utilized on the PK due to the size/positioning/strength. At the end of the day though what's the point? So in Kukk's 12-15 mins of ice time he plays 1 min/game on the PK, big deal. He's not a better player than Sbisa or Alberts or Parent or Jones or Carle or Vaananen or Timo or Coburn. He was waived and no one wanted him at his reasonable salary of $875K. He's a decent body to chew up some minutes, nothing more.
Please tell me when I said he was the best defenseman on the team

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01-12-2009, 09:45 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
Please tell me when I said he was the best defenseman on the team
I didn't intimate or say that you did. You threw out some stat that he has more PK time that Sbisa. Ok, so what? He's the 9th best defensemen on the team and was waived and he's got a cheap salary and wasn't picked up. He's a below average defensemen.

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01-12-2009, 11:05 AM
  #95
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
I

If anything, we've learned that the Flyers assessment of players is not always correct. Ask Paul Holmgren if they'd like that Patrick Sharp trade back.
Did you just compare Lasse freaking Kukkonen to Patrick Sharp. WOW.

Kukkonen has gone through waivers twice and hasn't been TOUCHED. I cant believe the hardon some flyer fans have for this scrub.Not physical. No offensive game. He stinks. No other nhl team wants him. He'll be back in Europe soon enough.


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01-12-2009, 11:10 AM
  #96
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This is completely wrong. Hatcher's and Rathje's cap hit can only be replaced to the extent the Flyers have to go over the cap to replace it, not the full salary. You can't 'store up' LTIR savings and use it later in the season. If you don't use it, it is gone.
Who is saying they're storying it up? By placing a player, who signed his contract prior to this 35th birthday, permanently on LTIR the contract is essentially nullified from your cap calculations.

If the player comes back, you store up nothing. We're talking specifically about Hatcher, and Rathje here...Briere is a use it or lose it case, because he's coming back into the lineup.

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Here's another thing, the Flyers have not one day this year had an active roster salary cap number exceeding 56.7 mil. By your logic Jester with the Flyers getting back ALL of the salaries for ALL players on LTIR and essentially removing them from all consideration then the Flyers have accrued some significant cap room and COULD right now have an active roster salary cap in excess of 56.7 mil. We shold only have to trim around a mil in unpaid cap salary with the cap space we've accrued We could get under that limit simply by sending down the Phantoms we've recently called up. Why then are we talking about sending Sbisa back and sending down Kukkonen, a player whiom we had to place on waivers and have pass through waivers before we could use him to get under? The truth is that we HAVE NOT accrued any cap cusion. LTIR eats up any cap cusion you have for that day BEFORE you are in consideration for and injury cap relief. Plus you only get cap relief for the amount you are over.
Who said ALL players? I said Hatcher and Rathje are not worth talking about in salary cap discussions, because as players permanently on the LTIR they will NEVER become cap considerations this year (unless one miraculously returns). Briere an others are a different story. Keith Primeau has been riding on our LTIR for some time as well.

We haven't accrued any cap space because we went into training camp OVER the salary cap. The only way we got under out of camp was by LTIR'ing Hatcher...by placing Hatcher on LTIR and removing his salary we became cap compliant. What has happened since then that is causing us problems?

We traded for Andrew Alberts AND Matt Carle, which were taking advantage of Jones and then Briere's LTIR status to keep us cap compliant, however they're both back now so that avenue for keeping us under the salary cap is gone so we're looking to make moves to make it work.

Each of the past two seasons we've entered training camp over the salary cap...last year when Rathje was trying to make a comeback...and this year with the question of Hatcher. As said, you're making it all much more complicated than it needs to be.

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01-12-2009, 11:16 AM
  #97
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I'll take Kukkonen over Andrew Alberts any day of the week.
Thank God you don't run this team.

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01-12-2009, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post

If anything, we've learned that the Flyers assessment of players is not always correct. Ask Paul Holmgren if they'd like that Patrick Sharp trade back.
I think you're confusing some issues here. Sharp was traded by Clarke. Sharp got opportunities in Chicago that he just wasn't going to get here. With the roster the Flyers had when Sharp was in town and knowing that Richards and Carter would be coming along, would you have given him the first line?

Chicago could give him that time, and could live with him at that spot while he learned the ropes. That's what you can do with a team with no expectations. This is one of those trades where you had to move the guy to not impede his career and give him some opportunities. Though nobody could foresee him playing with Kane and tearing it up like he has.

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01-12-2009, 12:41 PM
  #99
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I think you're confusing some issues here. Sharp was traded by Clarke. Sharp got opportunities in Chicago that he just wasn't going to get here. With the roster the Flyers had when Sharp was in town and knowing that Richards and Carter would be coming along, would you have given him the first line?

Chicago could give him that time, and could live with him at that spot while he learned the ropes. That's what you can do with a team with no expectations. This is one of those trades where you had to move the guy to not impede his career and give him some opportunities. Though nobody could foresee him playing with Kane and tearing it up like he has.
Sharp also "asked" to be traded.

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01-12-2009, 02:05 PM
  #100
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The fact that no one has selected him off waivers twice says all that needs to be said....
All it says is that other teams have their rosters and salary structures set and that it's not worth moving another piece to bring Kukkonen in. It says nothing about whether he belongs in this league.

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