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Holmgren's [surprising] thoughts on JVR

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Old
01-12-2009, 11:35 AM
  #26
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
I am definitely staying away from this thread, like opus said, we had 7 pages of debate on that subject.
Nothing wrong with civil debate regarding prospective players who may skate for the team that you invest time/money on, is there?

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01-12-2009, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
That's Holmgren's fault then. It's not like he didn't have options before him at the draft. He knew JVR was going to college, and knew JVR had no intentions at entertaining any other thought. That's his right as a college player.

I thought all along JVR was going to spend at least 2 years in college. He wasn't ready to make the jump into the pros post-draft. While I know many of us want to see him in the black and orange next season, Homer gives me the impression that either JVR might not want to or he'll be moved. I see nothing wrong with letting him stay in college (he's a kid darn it), but I do see a problem if we force him too fast or throw him out before he even reaches a pro level.

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01-12-2009, 11:41 AM
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If we move JVR, ill be SO pissed. Unless its an awesome deal, like getting a Great Dman or something. As said, JVR was our prize for sucking so much penis in 06-07, It would suck to see him never play...

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01-12-2009, 11:43 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by BlackTuuk View Post
Nothing wrong with civil debate regarding prospective players who may skate for the team that you invest time/money on, is there?
No not at all. I wasnt complaining. I just know if I get in on this it will be the prospect thread all over again

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01-12-2009, 12:03 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Dig Out Your Soul View Post
Yeah, hopefully if that happened the return would look a lot better than Tim ****ing Gleason.
my biggest fear is that homer jumps the gun and deals JvR at the deadline as a preemptive strike. and yes, if we trade JvR for another Modry/Vandermeer, i'll be more than a little disappointed.

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01-12-2009, 12:06 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by ForsbergIsOdin View Post
If we move JVR, ill be SO pissed. Unless its an awesome deal, like getting a Great Dman or something. As said, JVR was our prize for sucking so much penis in 06-07, It would suck to see him never play...
If by the grace of god we packed JVR to somehow obtain Dustin Brown, I am sure we could all live with it. That would be an "awesome deal." I keep hearing Kopitar's name popping up in trade talks, and he wears the "A." Maybe they'd give up Brown. Who knows if the trade rumors surrounding the Kings have teeth, though.

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01-12-2009, 12:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackTuuk View Post
If by the grace of god we packed JVR to somehow obtain Dustin Brown, I am sure we could all live with it. That would be an "awesome deal." I keep hearing Kopitar's name popping up in trade talks, and he wears the "A." Maybe they'd give up Brown. Who knows if the trade rumors surrounding the Kings have teeth, though.
Their captain? I doubt it... But who knows?

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01-12-2009, 12:10 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
He'll be fine, I'm actually a little confused as to why Holmgren is saying this. It's not like JVR's absence has hurt us at all and his cap hit will be a very challenging thing for Holmgren to manage.
Holmgren is worried about his development not whether or not he is playing in the NHL today. He felt that the AHL or OHL was better for his development because he feels JVR needed more games to develop. I think he feels JVR's development has been set back.

This is from Gare Joyce's blog at sportsnet:

More typical was the (non-)performance of James van Riemsdyk, Wilson's winger and the Flyers' first-round pick, No. 2 overall, behind Patrick Kane. This was his third trip to the WJC. He had been a dominant player at the spring under-18s in 2007, man among boys. But since then: pffftt. Said one scout after the Slovakia game: "He isn't any better than he was two seasons ago. He might have even gone backwards as a player since he went from [USA Hockey's] under-18 program to UNH [the University of New Hampshire]." Yup, he scored a near-meaningless goal late in the Slovakia game but his most memorable moment will be his tumbling over the boards when pounded by Canada's Stefan Della Rovere.

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01-12-2009, 12:16 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by ForsbergIsOdin View Post
Their captain? I doubt it... But who knows?
Yeah, my thinking, too. But Kopitar is a "captain lite," and has been the subject of trade speculation. Who knows is my thought, too.

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01-12-2009, 12:21 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
Holmgren is worried about his development not whether or not he is playing in the NHL today. He felt that the AHL or OHL was better for his development because he feels JVR needed more games to develop. I think he feels JVR's development has been set back.
That is a reasonable assessment. JVR has never played more than 40 games in any season he's participated in. Going to the OHL or AHL would have been ideal because he would have taken part in a season that goes a minimum of 62 games. He's going to have to spend a year in the AHL no matter what to get used to playing that much.

One of the reasons I think JVR went back to school this year was because of the AHL. There was a story on philly.com in which Holmgren met with JVRs parents over the offseason and JVRs parents asked Holmgren what he thought about JVR turning pro. When Holmgren mentioned that JVR would more than likely go to the AHL to start his career, that's when JVR went back to school, with his 'advisors' all saying that the plan was two years anyways.

Seriously, and I said this when the Flyers drafted him, I hope he proves me wrong, but I just have this feeling that he's got Hugh Jessiman written all over him.

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01-12-2009, 12:22 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
Holmgren is worried about his development not whether or not he is playing in the NHL today. He felt that the AHL or OHL was better for his development because he feels JVR needed more games to develop. I think he feels JVR's development has been set back.

This is from Gare Joyce's blog at sportsnet:

More typical was the (non-)performance of James van Riemsdyk, Wilson's winger and the Flyers' first-round pick, No. 2 overall, behind Patrick Kane. This was his third trip to the WJC. He had been a dominant player at the spring under-18s in 2007, man among boys. But since then: pffftt. Said one scout after the Slovakia game: "He isn't any better than he was two seasons ago. He might have even gone backwards as a player since he went from [USA Hockey's] under-18 program to UNH [the University of New Hampshire]." Yup, he scored a near-meaningless goal late in the Slovakia game but his most memorable moment will be his tumbling over the boards when pounded by Canada's Stefan Della Rovere.
Ouch. I don't deny that the OHL and to a greater degree WHL would have prepared the kid better than college hockey. The O, and Dub, are the best prep, no? But he wanted an education, so all are left to respect that much, I suppose.

But I really am starting to believe all these accounts now. Maybe he was harmed by staying in college and needs to join the team at the end of this college season. This is like the 4th or 5th account now, that has been in concert with the others.

Does anyone know if the kid has become more physical?

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01-12-2009, 12:35 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
Seriously, and I said this when the Flyers drafted him, I hope he proves me wrong, but I just have this feeling that he's got Hugh Jessiman written all over him.
Oh god, Dont even say that. haha.

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01-12-2009, 12:41 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
That is a reasonable assessment. JVR has never played more than 40 games in any season he's participated in. Going to the OHL or AHL would have been ideal because he would have taken part in a season that goes a minimum of 62 games. He's going to have to spend a year in the AHL no matter what to get used to playing that much.

One of the reasons I think JVR went back to school this year was because of the AHL. There was a story on philly.com in which Holmgren met with JVRs parents over the offseason and JVRs parents asked Holmgren what he thought about JVR turning pro. When Holmgren mentioned that JVR would more than likely go to the AHL to start his career, that's when JVR went back to school, with his 'advisors' all saying that the plan was two years anyways.

Seriously, and I said this when the Flyers drafted him, I hope he proves me wrong, but I just have this feeling that he's got Hugh Jessiman written all over him.
Precisely.

Those of you who are thinking that he's coming here (to the Flyers) next season and is going to contribute like we 'expect'...IMO, looking thru orange tinted glasses. If Sbisa isn't use to the workload, why the heck would JVR be???

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01-12-2009, 12:49 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
That is a reasonable assessment. JVR has never played more than 40 games in any season he's participated in. Going to the OHL or AHL would have been ideal because he would have taken part in a season that goes a minimum of 62 games. He's going to have to spend a year in the AHL no matter what to get used to playing that much.

One of the reasons I think JVR went back to school this year was because of the AHL. There was a story on philly.com in which Holmgren met with JVRs parents over the offseason and JVRs parents asked Holmgren what he thought about JVR turning pro. When Holmgren mentioned that JVR would more than likely go to the AHL to start his career, that's when JVR went back to school, with his 'advisors' all saying that the plan was two years anyways.

Seriously, and I said this when the Flyers drafted him, I hope he proves me wrong, but I just have this feeling that he's got Hugh Jessiman written all over him.
Just in case this happens, for the record I want to remind everyone that I wanted Voracek

Quote:
Originally Posted by opus View Post
Precisely.

Those of you who are thinking that he's coming here (to the Flyers) next season and is going to contribute like we 'expect'...IMO, looking thru orange tinted glasses. If Sbisa isn't use to the workload, why the heck would JVR be???
I rather them play him in the AHL for a year, I dont think he is going to have much of an impact at all if put in the NHL right away, most big guys like him dont....

We have a lot of very nice young prospects here Giroux, Sbisa, JVR, etc. I hope they dont screw all these guys up......

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01-12-2009, 01:04 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by mikedifr View Post

I rather them play him in the AHL for a year, I dont think he is going to have much of an impact at all if put in the NHL right away, most big guys like him dont....

We have a lot of very nice young prospects here Giroux, Sbisa, JVR, etc. I hope they dont screw all these guys up......
I do too. Which is why Homer is pissed off if I had to guess. If he stays at UNH, the next two years are lost as far as the Flyers are concerned.

2009/10 - UNH
2010-11 - AHL/NHL callup.

Timonen isn't getting any younger and IMO is the most valuable player on this team.

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01-12-2009, 01:08 PM
  #41
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No one is wrong in this situation. You can blame JVR for wanting to stay at college, but Homer is also right. He wants his impact player he drafted 2nd overall to get this team a cup!

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01-12-2009, 01:26 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Dig Out Your Soul View Post
If JVR doesn't come out of college at the end of this year, I see him being traded.
and that is a decision we will regret if it does indeed happen.
I just dont get the thinking that players cant benefit from playing college hockey.
Players like Dany Heatley and Paul Kariya went to college and they have had pretty good NHL careers.
I see these latest commets as Holmer turning the screws on JVR to come out of college when the season is over.

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01-12-2009, 01:39 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
Holmgren is worried about his development not whether or not he is playing in the NHL today. He felt that the AHL or OHL was better for his development because he feels JVR needed more games to develop. I think he feels JVR's development has been set back.

This is from Gare Joyce's blog at sportsnet:

More typical was the (non-)performance of James van Riemsdyk, Wilson's winger and the Flyers' first-round pick, No. 2 overall, behind Patrick Kane. This was his third trip to the WJC. He had been a dominant player at the spring under-18s in 2007, man among boys. But since then: pffftt. Said one scout after the Slovakia game: "He isn't any better than he was two seasons ago. He might have even gone backwards as a player since he went from [USA Hockey's] under-18 program to UNH [the University of New Hampshire]." Yup, he scored a near-meaningless goal late in the Slovakia game but his most memorable moment will be his tumbling over the boards when pounded by Canada's Stefan Della Rovere.
Oh my god, yet another moron (the blogger, not Libertine) come to regale us with his stupidity.

Not once in there is mentioned the fact that he has done FANTASTIC work for UNH all season and is currently a solid Hobey Baker candidate with NO SUPPORTING CAST, compare that to teams like BU, UM, UND, and etc. who have great forwards everywhere.

Again, this is all a giant overreaction to ONE GAME. The guy has spent the season playing against older guys and done well.

I completely understand the whole schedule argument, but let's look at it from a different perspective: age of competition.

A lot of these guys dominating in the OHL or the Dub are playing against 18 year-olds. JVR is playing against 21-22 year-olds. There is a fricking huge difference between a hockey player of 18 and one of 22. All this stuff about JVR "regressing" is complete BS.

Last year, he was protected at UNH by guys like Radja and Fornatero, those guys were both proven scorers. This year, there's no protection. UNH's seniors have something like 7 goals all season. But not only has JVR maintained his level of performance, he's actually increased it significantly.

Yet an idiot blogger like this moron watches ONE WJC game, formulates an opinion, and gets to trumpet it to the masses.

Look at the paragraph above this one.

Quote:
Not all are culpable. Colin Wilson, the Boston University centre and son of former NHLer Carey Wilson, was the headliner on this squad and he never bailed out. He had his heart ripped out by Dustin Tokarski a couple of time vs Canada but his work ethic never waned. Nashville drafted him in the first round of the draft last June and it's easy to picture him as the Predators' go-to guy for as long as they stay in business and eve, if as Dr Panarin predicts, Tennessee secedes along with others to form a new Confederacy.
Not to be subtle here: ARE YOU ****ING KIDDING ME?

I love Wilson, I go to BU, but GIVE ME A ****ING BREAK. Wilson was missing chances right and left and you want to guess who created most of those chances? A certain JAMES VAN RIEMSDYK.

So basically, because Wilson didn't get crosschecked into the camera stand and missed about 10 point-blank chances in the tournament, he will be a better player than the guy who got cheapshotted and still created 7 or 8 of those chances.

That is a BS article and the research is pathetic (I could do better and I just did).

Holmgren has made a couple comments and the media is just going to take them and run, so feel free.

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01-12-2009, 01:42 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by FireStevensDotCom View Post
and that is a decision we will regret if it does indeed happen.
I just dont get the thinking that players cant benefit from playing college hockey.
Players like Dany Heatley and Paul Kariya went to college and they have had pretty good NHL careers.
I see these latest commets as Holmer turning the screws on JVR to come out of college when the season is over.
You can find examples to disprove any rule....the majority of elite NHL players do not have NCAA on their resume. Does that mean you cannot develop through those ranks? Of course not, but it does suggest there are other development paths that have proven more successful.

As for the final comment...that would be the last thing we'd want him to do. We do NOT want JVR going pro after this season is over as it will take a year off of his entry contract. If he is going to be in the AHL for a year anyway, lets not use up two years of professional contracts on that process.

And to those talking about JVR as a call up...guys who are 3M cap hits are not exactly ideal call up material.

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01-12-2009, 01:56 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
You can find examples to disprove any rule....the majority of elite NHL players do not have NCAA on their resume. Does that mean you cannot develop through those ranks? Of course not, but it does suggest there are other development paths that have proven more successful.

As for the final comment...that would be the last thing we'd want him to do. We do NOT want JVR going pro after this season is over as it will take a year off of his entry contract. If he is going to be in the AHL for a year anyway, lets not use up two years of professional contracts on that process.

And to those talking about JVR as a call up...guys who are 3M cap hits are not exactly ideal call up material.
US players generally tend to play in the NCAA.
Canadian players generally tend to play in the OHL.

Canada produces more good players than the US does.

I think that might have something to do with it.

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01-12-2009, 02:02 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by opus View Post
Precisely.

Those of you who are thinking that he's coming here (to the Flyers) next season and is going to contribute like we 'expect'...IMO, looking thru orange tinted glasses. If Sbisa isn't use to the workload, why the heck would JVR be???
I don't know that the "workload" or games played expectation is always unfair: some players can handle it just fine, others, well, they need to be "Thornton-ed" along. But it does appear that the NHL workload may challenge JVR.

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01-12-2009, 02:09 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
US players generally tend to play in the NCAA.
Canadian players generally tend to play in the OHL.

Canada produces more good players than the US does.

I think that might have something to do with it.
Even that isn't an entirely true statement, as there are more than a few American players in the NHL who went the CHL route for their development as opposed to going to the NCAA. Bobby Ryan and Patrick Kane, for example, spring immediately to mind from recent drafts. However, beyond that, if you look at the really good US players over the last 20 years...a lot of them didn't spend any time in the NCAA ranks. However, there are, of course, other examples like Parise and Toews, who have spent time in the NCAA ranks and come out as elite prospects.

However, the issue is beyond a simple comparison between the US and Canada, the US has struggled to turn out elite hockey talent in comparison to nearly every other hockey nation in the world. Canada, Sweden, Russia, etc. have all seemed to have better systems of development for young players.

What is the common denominator of those systems (based on my understanding of them)? Far more attention paid to developing hockey skills at an elite level at a younger age. More games against stiffer competition early on. Ovechkin is playing in the RSL when he gets drafted. Guys like Forsberg and Sundin are playing in the SEL.

The problem with the NCAA in comparison to these development paths is that the rules governing NCAA hockey state that these guys are "student athletes" not "hockey players." While that focus is certainly better for them as members of society, it probably isn't doing them favors as far as developing into a professional athlete. The fact of the matter is that the style of play in the CHL is far closer to that of the NHL, which is why people wanted JVR to go to the OHL instead of the NCAA. NCAA hockey is good hockey, but it is not explicitly part of a development system the way the CHL is set up to be.

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01-12-2009, 02:51 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
One of the reasons I think JVR went back to school this year was because of the AHL. There was a story on philly.com in which Holmgren met with JVRs parents over the offseason and JVRs parents asked Holmgren what he thought about JVR turning pro. When Holmgren mentioned that JVR would more than likely go to the AHL to start his career, that's when JVR went back to school, with his 'advisors' all saying that the plan was two years anyways.

Seriously, and I said this when the Flyers drafted him, I hope he proves me wrong, but I just have this feeling that he's got Hugh Jessiman written all over him.
Yeah, I have a feeling he chose to go back to school because he preferred the party atmosphere of college over the minor league lifestyle of the AHL.

Though I disagree he will be another Hugh Jessiman.

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Originally Posted by BlackTuuk View Post
Does anyone know if the kid has become more physical?
No, he hasn't. I was reading the UNH thread over at US College Hockey Online and they were talking about how they wish JVR was more physical and aggressive. Some mentioned how he is constantly at the receiving ends of cheap shots, but he usually doesn't do anything about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FireStevensDotCom View Post
and that is a decision we will regret if it does indeed happen.
I just dont get the thinking that players cant benefit from playing college hockey.
Players like Dany Heatley and Paul Kariya went to college and they have had pretty good NHL careers.
I see these latest commets as Holmer turning the screws on JVR to come out of college when the season is over.
Yeah, but were Heatley and Kariya's organizations unhappy with their progress and were scouts questioning whether or not they regressed? The NCAA is certainly a good developmental program, but that doesn't mean it is the right program for every prospect. Holmgren feels that JVR would benefit from playing more games and that he isn't progressing enough. JVR was told the same thing by others scouts and organizations before he was drafted so it's not as if Holmgren has something against the NCAA either.

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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Oh my god, yet another moron (the blogger, not Libertine) come to regale us with his stupidity.

Not once in there is mentioned the fact that he has done FANTASTIC work for UNH all season and is currently a solid Hobey Baker candidate with NO SUPPORTING CAST, compare that to teams like BU, UM, UND, and etc. who have great forwards everywhere.

Again, this is all a giant overreaction to ONE GAME. The guy has spent the season playing against older guys and done well.

I completely understand the whole schedule argument, but let's look at it from a different perspective: age of competition.

A lot of these guys dominating in the OHL or the Dub are playing against 18 year-olds. JVR is playing against 21-22 year-olds. There is a fricking huge difference between a hockey player of 18 and one of 22. All this stuff about JVR "regressing" is complete BS.

Last year, he was protected at UNH by guys like Radja and Fornatero, those guys were both proven scorers. This year, there's no protection. UNH's seniors have something like 7 goals all season. But not only has JVR maintained his level of performance, he's actually increased it significantly.

Yet an idiot blogger like this moron watches ONE WJC game, formulates an opinion, and gets to trumpet it to the masses.

Look at the paragraph above this one.
First of all, it was a scout that said he was regressing, not some random hockey blogger. Secondly, Gare Joyce isn't just some random hockey blogger. He is a journalist that is very interested in the scouting world and spent a year shadowing the Columbus Blue Jackets scouts. He knows more than your average blogger because he is connected to the scouting world.

Thirdly, has it ever occurred to you that is more about JVR's points at UNH? I don't think Paul Holmgren would be so unhappy with JVR's decision to go back to UNH if he felt JVR was dominating and continuing to progress as a prospect. Paul Holmgren isn't as reactionary as the media and fans are. There is clearly more to it than just one bad game.

JVR's putting up the points, but if it wasn't for one great game against a poor team he would be on the same pace as last season. Last year people here knocked Turris for the exact same thing. So maybe he isn't dominating as much as you think he is by looking at the stat sheet. Like I said above I was reading a UNH thread and some commented that they don't think he is as dominant as his stats suggest and he hasn't dominated the way some of their best players in the past have dominated. These people aren't experts mind you, but these are people who watch him every game.

As for college vs the OHL, yes the competition is older, but the quality of opponents aren't necessarily any better. Most of these guys are never going to sniff the NHL. There are more NHL caliber players in the OHL. Most of the best juniors in the world are playing in the Canadian junior leagues. The NCAA guys might have size to their advantage, but it's not as physical as the CHL. So I don't see a clear edge advantage to playing against the older players of the NCAA as opposed to the teens of the OHL/CHL.

That point is moot anyway because Holmgren wanted to sign him and have him play for the Phantoms instead of going back to UNH. He feels playing more games in the AHL was better for his development and that he isn't progressing enough in college. I choose to go with his word instead of just looking at the stats and assuming everything is fine.

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01-12-2009, 02:58 PM
  #49
Opus
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Did I read somewhere in this thread that somebody compared him (JVR) to Rick Nash?

...p'lease!




Not even close. Let's not go there.

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01-12-2009, 03:06 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by opus View Post
Did I read somewhere in this thread that somebody compared him (JVR) to Rick Nash?

...p'lease!




Not even close. Let's not go there.
That comparison has been out there since his draft year.

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