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2009 Roster Moves and Contract Talks. Contract Numbers (Post #1/#826).

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Old
01-12-2009, 08:58 AM
  #76
zecke26
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Originally Posted by Zune View Post
OK since a select few of you think Datsyuk didn't deserve the Selke than Zetterberg didn't deserve the Conn Smyth. I have nothing to back that up, its just my opinion and on this message board opinion and personal preference trumps fact..
there are no facts about defensive play. it's all about personal preference. take two coaches and ask them what they want on defense and they will tell you different things. there's not a single statistic that backs up defensive play. takeaway covers a part of defensive play, but just a part. PK-time indicates nothing at all for example.
i just try to express that "datsyuk is better than zetterberg" is just an opinion and not a fact.

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Datsyuk won the Selke last season, making him the best defensive player in the league. Hes probably going to win it again this season, who was the last player to win the Selke back to back? Jere Lehtinen? I guess that was a fluke too.
it made him the best defensive player in the opinion of those who hand out the awards. and you know how many people usually agree with the awards. it shows that it's an opinion. there's no ultimate truth.

i personally think Z is the better player. that's the impression i get watching the games. he seems to have a better positioning and be more calm. datsyuk looks flashier, but seems to lose the overview at times.

that being said, i like lehtinen a lot. he's a complete player and deserved the selke. datsyuk deserved it too. he's great. i think there's just someone greater than him in one aspect of the game.

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01-12-2009, 09:00 AM
  #77
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I just wanted to say thanks to arice89 who are making the argument for me. I agree with almost everything you have written.

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01-12-2009, 09:03 AM
  #78
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Again, its the same old argument. The last string of hope for Zetterberg fans to keep Datsyuk down. The ever elusive "Defense" that somehow Zetterberg is miles ahead of Datsyuk, yet Datsyuk ran away in Selke voting.

Why is it that Datsyuk blocks more shots, hits more, has more takeaways, is better on faceoffs, has a higher +/- and scores more points, yet Z is somehow better defensively?

Its the weakest of all arguments.

People have complained about me being a Datsyuk Homer but the Z fans are worse. Datsuyk could outscore Zetterberg by 20 points and they would still cling to something to prove hes better. Well, he does have a model girlfriend and a snazzy beard, I guess that makes him the more complete player.

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01-12-2009, 09:16 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Zune View Post
People have complained about me being a Datsyuk Homer but the Z fans are worse. Datsuyk could outscore Zetterberg by 20 points and they would still cling to something to prove hes better. Well, he does have a model girlfriend and a snazzy beard, I guess that makes him the more complete player.
oh, i'm a Z fan now? nice to know. i never considered myself one.
and who said he's more complete?
did i mention his girlfriend too? wow.

whatever...

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01-12-2009, 09:19 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Zune View Post
Again, its the same old argument. The last string of hope for Zetterberg fans to keep Datsyuk down. The ever elusive "Defense" that somehow Zetterberg is miles ahead of Datsyuk, yet Datsyuk ran away in Selke voting.

Why is it that Datsyuk blocks more shots, hits more, has more takeaways, is better on faceoffs, has a higher +/- and scores more points, yet Z is somehow better defensively?

Its the weakest of all arguments.

People have complained about me being a Datsyuk Homer but the Z fans are worse. Datsuyk could outscore Zetterberg by 20 points and they would still cling to something to prove hes better. Well, he does have a model girlfriend and a snazzy beard, I guess that makes him the more complete player.
Well you counteract that where well with your downplaying of Zetterberg's accomplishments. You make it sound like Dats always has been seen as the best player compared to Zetterberg. Go back a couple of years (or even one year) and read the board and you'll see that's not been the case. Datsyk is better now yes, but stop making it sound like he has always been seen like that and always will be like it's some universal law.

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01-12-2009, 09:26 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Gozer View Post
Well you counteract that where well with your downplaying of Zetterberg's accomplishments. You make it sound like Dats always has been seen as the best player compared to Zetterberg. Go back a couple of years and read the board and you'll see that's not been the case. Datsyk is better now yes, but stop making it sound like he has always been seen like that and always will be.
Datsyuk has led the team in scoring since 2004. The exact point of which SOME people thought Zetterberg was better was the Edmonton series in 2006. Z scored 6 goals in 6 games and Datsyuk couldn't walk but still played.

Zetterberg's epic production only happened when he was paired with Datsyuk for the second half of the 06-07 season, playoffs and than last season. Now that they're split up, Datsyuk is still on the same pace hes always been on and Zetterberg is back down to earth.

So yes, its easy to point out which player is better.

The whole anti-Datsyuk campaign started when he signed a contract with Dynamo, held out until the last second and than signed with the Wings for $5 million a season. If he would have bent over and signed long term for cheap, ala Z, he would have been the golden boy.

Which player shows up on more highlights? Datsyuk
Which hits, blocks more shots and is better at faceoffs? Datsyuk
Which can play with any linemates and succeed? Datsyuk
Which won a Selke? Datsyuk

I mean really, Datsyuk is even scoring more goals this season than Z. How is this even up for debate any longer?

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01-12-2009, 09:45 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Zune View Post
Datsyuk has led the team in scoring since 2004. The exact point of which SOME people thought Zetterberg was better was the Edmonton series in 2006. Z scored 6 goals in 6 games and Datsyuk couldn't walk but still played.

Zetterberg's epic production only happened when he was paired with Datsyuk for the second half of the 06-07 season, playoffs and than last season. Now that they're split up, Datsyuk is still on the same pace hes always been on and Zetterberg is back down to earth.

So yes, its easy to point out which player is better.

The whole anti-Datsyuk campaign started when he signed a contract with Dynamo, held out until the last second and than signed with the Wings for $5 million a season. If he would have bent over and signed long term for cheap, ala Z, he would have been the golden boy.

Which player shows up on more highlights? Datsyuk
Which hits, blocks more shots and is better at faceoffs? Datsyuk
Which can play with any linemates and succeed? Datsyuk
Which won a Selke? Datsyuk

I mean really, Datsyuk is even scoring more goals this season than Z. How is this even up for debate any longer?
Zetterberg has been better than Dats if you count all the playoffs they've been in. I believe the majority would say that. Watch the games instead of citing statistics.

Dats is a better playmaker, Zetterberg is a better goal scorer (despite having less this season so far yes). Datsyk gets more points. Not enough to say he is a better player overall. If we assume Dats was the better defensive player last season you could say that, but Zetterberg was seen as the better the years before by most people regardless of Dats contract negotiation.

And the reason it's still up for debate is that you are wrongly (imo) attributing Zetterbergs success to Datsyk. Zetterberg played better last season regardless who his linemates where. I've base that on simply watching the games from last year and this, and Zetterberg just isn't finishing the way he where last season with basically the same opportunities. Compare his shots on the pp for example.

So yes Dats is probably the better player right now but to say that's always been the case is if not wrong at least highly debatable and not as finitive as you make it seem.

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01-12-2009, 09:55 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Gozer View Post
Zetterberg has been better than Dats if you count all the playoffs they've been in. I believe the majority would say that. Watch the games instead of citing statistics.

Dats is a better playmaker, Zetterberg is a better goal scorer (despite having less this season so far yes). Datsyk gets more points. Not enough to say he is a better player overall. If we assume Dats was the better defensive player last season you could say that, but Zetterberg was seen as the better the years before by most people regardless of Dats contract negotiation.

And the reason it's still up for debate is that you are wrongly (imo) attributing Zetterbergs success to Datsyk. Zetterberg played better last season regardless who his linemates where. I've base that on simply watching the games from last year and this, and Zetterberg just isn't finishing the way he where last season with basically the same opportunities. Compare his shots on the pp for example.

So yes Dats is probably the better player right now but to say that's always been the case is if not wrong at least highly debatable and not as finitive as you make it seem.
Using your theory of "Watching games" would prove your last two paragraphs wrong. Over the last two seasons, when Zetterberg was out of the lineup, Datsyuk performed at a higher pace. I don't have the stats off hand but they have been posted plenty of times on here and LGW. Also last season and the half a season before that, Datsyuk and Z were never split up.

This resulted in Zetterberg playing amazing. The second he and Datsyuk were paired, both of their production went through the roof. The difference this season is that instead of being together, they're split up and Z is struggling while Datsyuk is playing just as well.

And again, if you're watching games, you would realize that over the last two seasons, the PP ran through Zetterberg. He switched spots with Datsyuk on the half boards, basically running a reverse of the play that Datsyuk runs now. Now that Z is on the second PP this allows Datsyuk to take more shots, instead of playing the goal line, cycling the puck to Lidstrom and to Z for the shot.

This isn't just about stats but its obvious that the Conn Smyth Zetterberg is completely different from this seasons Z. And we know why that is, its because hes not playing with Datsyuk.

That, coupled with the fact that Datsyuk won a Selke last season, leads me to believe that hes the better player. Leading the team in scoring since 2004 leads me to believe that hes been the better player for a long time.

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Old
01-12-2009, 10:38 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Zune View Post
Using your theory of "Watching games" would prove your last two paragraphs wrong. Over the last two seasons, when Zetterberg was out of the lineup, Datsyuk performed at a higher pace. I don't have the stats off hand but they have been posted plenty of times on here and LGW. Also last season and the half a season before that, Datsyuk and Z were never split up.

This resulted in Zetterberg playing amazing. The second he and Datsyuk were paired, both of their production went through the roof. The difference this season is that instead of being together, they're split up and Z is struggling while Datsyuk is playing just as well.

And again, if you're watching games, you would realize that over the last two seasons, the PP ran through Zetterberg. He switched spots with Datsyuk on the half boards, basically running a reverse of the play that Datsyuk runs now. Now that Z is on the second PP this allows Datsyuk to take more shots, instead of playing the goal line, cycling the puck to Lidstrom and to Z for the shot.

This isn't just about stats but its obvious that the Conn Smyth Zetterberg is completely different from this seasons Z. And we know why that is, its because hes not playing with Datsyuk.

That, coupled with the fact that Datsyuk won a Selke last season, leads me to believe that hes the better player. Leading the team in scoring since 2004 leads me to believe that hes been the better player for a long time.
Because they almost always have played together is the reason you can't attribute Zetterbergs previous success to Dats. You could just as easily make the argument that Zetterberg just hasn't been playing as well as he has (which was what I tried to convey with me watching games, coming to that conclusion). And what has Dats increased numbers with Zetterberg out have to do with this? He stepped up, probably got more pucks from his teammates and shot more pucks.

And the first bolded is debatable not a fact. He did many amazing things in the playoffs that had nothing to do with Dats.

The second bolded is just poor reasoning. Him putting up more points is one "clue", but there are several other factors than that. And I argue that up until last and arguable the last season Zetterberg have been the better of the two.

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01-12-2009, 10:59 AM
  #85
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Why do we care which one is better? Fact is we need both if we want to win.

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01-12-2009, 11:02 AM
  #86
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Why do we care which one is better? Fact is we need both if we want to win.
Why? We got Hossa?

But you are right, it shouldn't matter. But I got nothing better to do right now so lets argue anyway.

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01-12-2009, 12:16 PM
  #87
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Why? We got Hossa?

But you are right, it shouldn't matter. But I got nothing better to do right now so lets argue anyway.
Hossa scored one less point, in one less game compared to Z in the playoffs. He was also about an inch off from tying game 6 single handily.

Theres no doubt that Hossa would have won the Conn Smyth had the Pens won.

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01-12-2009, 12:29 PM
  #88
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Only in a Bettman-less universe would Hossa have gotten the Conn Smythe. Had the Pens won, we KNOW who would get the MVP trophy. He was getting more attention than the players and team that DID win.

However, Hossa had as spectacular a playoff run as did Z.

 
Old
01-12-2009, 12:35 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by zecke26 View Post
i think Z is the better D-player. stats and awards are the curse of modern hockey discussions. i wonder if anyone actually watched the games or if people just read the stats.

which stat shows us how good the positioning of a player is to make the space smaller for opponents or to take out players completely?

datsyuk is the flashy puck stealer, but Z is the guy who takes away space. it's nice to have both types on a team btw. gives you plenty of options on PK and in critical moments.
i agree zetterberg is better defensively.

zetterberg covers opponents better. datsyuk almost always seems to have in the back of his mind the idea of getting the puck and scoring.
taking the puck away is D, but datsyuk's greater offensive mindedness too often leads him to not cover his opponent as well as he should.

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Zetterberg has been better than Dats if you count all the playoffs they've been in. I believe the majority would say that. Watch the games instead of citing statistics.

Dats is a better playmaker, Zetterberg is a better goal scorer (despite having less this season so far yes). Datsyk gets more points. Not enough to say he is a better player overall. If we assume Dats was the better defensive player last season you could say that, but Zetterberg was seen as the better the years before by most people regardless of Dats contract negotiation.

And the reason it's still up for debate is that you are wrongly (imo) attributing Zetterbergs success to Datsyk. Zetterberg played better last season regardless who his linemates where. I've base that on simply watching the games from last year and this, and Zetterberg just isn't finishing the way he where last season with basically the same opportunities. Compare his shots on the pp for example.

So yes Dats is probably the better player right now but to say that's always been the case is if not wrong at least highly debatable and not as finitive as you make it seem.
i thought datsyuk was better than zetterberg last season. i actually don't think zetterberg has been better than datsyuk in any season.

zune has a point. zetterberg is not as good when he doesn't play with datsyuk.
zetterberg doesn't have elite physical talents that allow him to dominate. he's not an elite skater or shooter. he's not a big power forward. what makes zetterberg great is his hockey sense.

if a great playmaker has elite hockey sense, the linemates are not as important, b/c the player's vision and passing enables him to capitalize on his own hockey sense.

but if the player with elite hockey sense is not a great playmaker, it is harder to capitalize on elite hockey sense without great linemates.
rick nash is a good example. brett hull is an extreme example.
zetterberg is obviously much more multidimensional than nash and hull, but the general idea is the same.

i have thought for the entire season that zetterberg's line lacks playmaking.
i think hudler is capable of filling that role, but babcock doesn't.

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01-12-2009, 12:37 PM
  #90
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Hossa scored one less point, in one less game compared to Z in the playoffs. He was also about an inch off from tying game 6 single handily.

Theres no doubt that Hossa would have won the Conn Smyth had the Pens won.
crosby would have won it.

plus, hossa blatantly tripped datsyuk in the neutral zone (who was about to score into an empty net) about 10 seconds before he almost tied the game.

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01-12-2009, 12:40 PM
  #91
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crosby would have won it.

plus, hossa blatantly tripped datsyuk in the neutral zone (who was about to score into an empty net) about 10 seconds before he almost tied the game.
Regardless, im fully aware of how terrible the refs were in that series. It really doesn't matter, Hossa was clutch. Crosby love is one thing but if Hossa tied that game and than had a strong game seven, theres no way he wouldn't have won it.

Z and Hossa had nearly identical post seasons. One played on a much better team.

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01-12-2009, 01:07 PM
  #92
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I think the conflict in the negotiations with Zetterberg is more term than money. In the mind of Zetterberg's agent, here is a guy who has been proclaimed the captain-in-waiting, proven to be clutch when the team needs him most (conn smythe), elite defensively (selke runnerup - arguably would have won the selke had the voting taken place after the playoffs), etc., etc. With such a pedigree, it's hard to argue that Henrik does not deserve a lifetime deal (or close to it). Who knows, maybe they're asking for 10 years.

But if you're Red Wings management, I don't think you can afford, at this moment, to give out that sort of deal. While Zetterberg is certainly all those things listed above, the question of durabitility must come into play. We all know of his reocurring back problems: who's to say they won't become more impactful as he hits his early-to-mid 30's? But even more so, there's the question of the salary cap. How much will it drop in the coming years? That instability there also makes giving Z a long-term deal all the more difficult.

I think if Z is looking for 8-10 years, I don't see how Holland could sway him to 6 unless he gave him more $$$/year. But then again, Holland can't do that, because of the cap situation the team is in. This dilemma is probably what is dragging out the negotiations, at present. I don't see it being resolved until late spring, but I think Holland will give in somewhat.

It seems that too many people here are passing off Zetterberg as being a lot less important to the franchise than he really is. In fact, I would argue as important as he is now (REALLY important), he will be even more critical to the team after Lidstrom puts away the skates. The fact is, his presence gives the Red Wings one of the best one-two centers in the league (second only to Crosby-Malkin). Not to mention, he is the epitome of the system that is played in Detroit, and will be essential to the continuity of that system as the younger players in Detroit learn from him. And because he is here, Babcock always has the option of putting the euro twins together whenever necessary, which is a plan B any coach would kill to have. Clearly, there is no one on the open market that can come in and replace Z, and if it comes down to him or Hossa, you take Henrik every time.

All in all, I see Zetterberg getting an 8 year, $56 million deal. He gets the term he wants (not quite 10, but close enough), and Holland gets the figure he wants ($7 million/year - while more than Datsyuk, not significantly more, and very bearable). Let's remember that before Datsyuk signed his deal, he was still a question mark in the postseason. Right now, Zetterberg (and Datsyuk) is not, obviously. I think this factor HAS to be taken into account more than any other, and for this reason, Z WILL get more than Datsyuk, whether he is actually better than Pav or not.

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01-12-2009, 01:15 PM
  #93
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there are so many factors here that all we can do is hope for the best as wings fans and believe in ken holland,

what would you do though, if you find out that Hossa will settle on a contract identical to Datsyuks, while Zetterberg wants 7.3-7.5 million over 6-8 years? In that scenario, if you were Ken Holland, who would you take? We don't know how the other contracts will pan out and who will make the first move, but if Hossa were to tell Holland he would take a Datsyuk deal, I would take it if I were Holland and try and fit in Zetterberg but if we can't, although I love the guy to death, we can't keep him if it doesn't fit in the cap. Hopefully one of them wants to be a red wing so bad that they bite on a lower dollar deal so we can figure out sooner or later what our team of the future 5 years will somewhat look like

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01-12-2009, 01:20 PM
  #94
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there are so many factors here that all we can do is hope for the best as wings fans and believe in ken holland,

what would you do though, if you find out that Hossa will settle on a contract identical to Datsyuks, while Zetterberg wants 7.3-7.5 million over 6-8 years? In that scenario, if you were Ken Holland, who would you take? We don't know how the other contracts will pan out and who will make the first move, but if Hossa were to tell Holland he would take a Datsyuk deal, I would take it if I were Holland and try and fit in Zetterberg but if we can't, although I love the guy to death, we can't keep him if it doesn't fit in the cap. Hopefully one of them wants to be a red wing so bad that they bite on a lower dollar deal so we can figure out sooner or later what our team of the future 5 years will somewhat look like
I might be mistaken, but I believe that is exactly what Holland offered Hossa during FA, and Hossa turned it down (only to call back and offer his own, one-year deal).

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01-12-2009, 01:30 PM
  #95
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I might be mistaken, but I believe that is exactly what Holland offered Hossa during FA, and Hossa turned it down (only to call back and offer his own, one-year deal).
that may be true, but what if Hossa accepts the cap is going down, and wants to play on the red wings long term, he might change his opinion on a deal like that now, but like I said, who knows what is going on in the minds of the 3 big players (Hossa Z and Franzen) and their agents. But I do think if one will accept a sweet deal from Holland he will take it and force the hands of the others

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01-12-2009, 01:32 PM
  #96
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Mod Edit: deleted.

Because Datsyuk has been degraded and underated since 2003 because he didn't single handily win a cup every season hes played in the league?

Zetterberg has been overrated by this fan base for about two years, while everyone had some reason to question Datsyuk. Now that Datsyuk is better in every aspect of the game, its hard not to point out. Especially when most of the Zetterberg supporters are the same that wanted to trade Datsyuk in 2006.

Literally, what else can the guy do? 97 points, 30 goals, selke, byng and a cup and people are still putting Z over him. It makes no sense.

I for one will jump for joy the day when Datsyuk is introduced as captain. It will make my life complete.


Last edited by Fugu: 01-12-2009 at 01:34 PM. Reason: qdp
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01-12-2009, 01:43 PM
  #97
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In the following posts you can simply assume I think almost the opposite of Zune. That will save me som time writing.

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01-12-2009, 01:46 PM
  #98
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Mod Edit: deleted.

Because Datsyuk has been degraded and underated since 2003 because he didn't single handily win a cup every season hes played in the league?

Zetterberg has been overrated by this fan base for about two years, while everyone had some reason to question Datsyuk. Now that Datsyuk is better in every aspect of the game, its hard not to point out. Especially when most of the Zetterberg supporters are the same that wanted to trade Datsyuk in 2006.

Literally, what else can the guy do? 97 points, 30 goals, selke, byng and a cup and people are still putting Z over him. It makes no sense.

I for one will jump for joy the day when Datsyuk is introduced as captain. It will make my life complete.
I tend to agree.. no more complete player in the league. That being said i dunno or care if he will ever be captain.

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01-12-2009, 01:57 PM
  #99
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Mod Edit: deleted.

Because Datsyuk has been degraded and underated since 2003 because he didn't single handily win a cup every season hes played in the league?

Zetterberg has been overrated by this fan base for about two years, while everyone had some reason to question Datsyuk. Now that Datsyuk is better in every aspect of the game, its hard not to point out. Especially when most of the Zetterberg supporters are the same that wanted to trade Datsyuk in 2006.

Literally, what else can the guy do? 97 points, 30 goals, selke, byng and a cup and people are still putting Z over him. It makes no sense.

I for one will jump for joy the day when Datsyuk is introduced as captain. It will make my life complete.

I wouldn't call Zetterberg overrated by any means. You win a playoff MVP, you are going to get praise. That's praise that he has definitely deserved, and hasn't had leading up to the playoffs last year.

Also, you're telling us, other red wings fans, that Dats has been "degraded and underated since 2003," which is suppose to be news to us? Trust me, we know this. The league, and its fan base majority have never given Datsyuk the credit of being a great playmaker and amazing stick handler until now, finally.

As much as I love Datsyuk, as great the player he is and the best interview to watch, Z is the better candidate for captaincy based on locker room leadership and speech in english.

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01-12-2009, 02:22 PM
  #100
ThatOneGuy*
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashenhigh View Post
I wouldn't call Zetterberg overrated by any means. You win a playoff MVP, you are going to get praise. That's praise that he has definitely deserved, and hasn't had leading up to the playoffs last year.

Also, you're telling us, other red wings fans, that Dats has been "degraded and underated since 2003," which is suppose to be news to us? Trust me, we know this. The league, and its fan base majority have never given Datsyuk the credit of being a great playmaker and amazing stick handler until now, finally.

As much as I love Datsyuk, as great the player he is and the best interview to watch, Z is the better candidate for captaincy based on locker room leadership and speech in english.
Please give me an example of "Locker room leadership". What you're saying is that he couldn't be captain because his english is bad. On the other hand, he talks with refs constantly and dare I say, leads by example?

Jesus, do you guys just think that Datsyuk sits in the corner and says nothing to any of his teammates without a translator? Or that somehow the team is going to listen to Hank because hes slightly better at English?

This is to the point of grasping straws, it always comes down to this.

And I wasn't talking about the rest of the league underestimating Datsyuk. I was specifically talking about Wings fans. Datsyuk started receiving respect around the league before he got it from most Detroit fans.

Like ive said, hes proven himself to be a playoff performer, hes got two cups. Hes got a Selke and will probably get another one this season and hes on pace for 93 points. What else can the guy do?

Hes literally been the most consistent and high scoring player since Yzerman and yet he still plays in Zetterberg's shadow.

I tend to believe that MOST Wings fans get their talking points and beliefs from Ken Daniels. It seems to be a fairly accurate trend. Two seasons ago, he never discussed Datsyuk playing defense, even though he had an insane takeaway total. On the other hand, he constantly talked about Zetterberg playing strong defense, sometimes calling him "The best two way player in the game".

Last season that changed. Daniels started bringing up Datsyuk's takeaway totals and defensive play. This then led to a large percentage of Wings fans on various message boards pushing for Datsyuk to be in the Selke running.

Mickey Redmond has been pushing Datsyuk since he broke into the league and I fully agree with him when he said "Hes the best player in the league".

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