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Old
01-12-2009, 12:26 PM
  #26
JXC
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Originally Posted by TheDrizzle81 View Post
Ill put it to you all this way. If the Flyers dump Carle before Jones, I will forever write this team off and stop following hockey
That would almost make it all worthwhile.

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Originally Posted by poneill27 View Post
If we get rid of Carle we'd have basically given away a first rd pick this year and Downie for nothing.
Ummmmmmmmm, you girls should keep in mind that it is likely that were they to trade Jones or Carle, they would actually get something in return.

Hence the word "trade".

Lupul might fetch middle first round pick.

Carle might fetch a middle first round pick.

Jones might fetch a thrid round pick.

Makes the decision a tiny bit more complex, doesn't it?

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01-12-2009, 12:33 PM
  #27
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I say we keep Jones, just so I can sigh at his horrible contract, and laugh when he falls 30 times a game. The one thing though is I dont understand the Carle love. I was by no means a Downie supporter but when I watch Carle play he makes sooo many mistakes. Not as many as Jones but still alot. I find it funny when people says he's #2 behind Kimmo or even #3. I feel more comfortable when Coburn has the puck then Carle.

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01-12-2009, 12:48 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by JXC View Post
I have not seen the slew of errors from either that so many here have seen. This year, Coburn has seemed to make the most mistakes but maybe that is because he is defending players who can take advantage of the less than stellar play.

I think there are about 15 or 20 defensemen in the league whose play cannot be nitpicked by the fan who wants to see flawless play on the back end. For everyone else, the weak wraparound and the failed clear and the intercepted pass and the bad icing and the missed check and the bad pinch are routine. Defensemen make mistakes. That's what they do.

Sometimes they even fall down!!

Coburn > Carle > Jones

In my opinion.
This I agree with. I think a lot of you think everything is a mistake because you expect perfection, which is way too unreasonable.

It's easy to see the options a player has when looking at it from a bird's eye view, but remember he doesn't see the same thing on the ice.

Coburn has been the worst of the three. Carle has been our 2nd best d-man behind Timonen.

They're not all #1 d-men for a reason, folks. I really think soem of you are still bitter about Downie as well - you really need to get over it. He hasn't done anything to even reconsider that trade.

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01-12-2009, 12:49 PM
  #29
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Coburn has not been nearly as bad people here make him out to be. A little dissapointing? Sure. But he hasn't been that bad

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01-12-2009, 01:01 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by opus View Post
I for one, don't share the hatred for Jones that some around these parts do, but in fairness to the guy...he has gotten better.

From 2006/07 - 2007/08 he progressed quite nicely.

If anything, Carle has taken a step back. What evidence do you have to suggest his cieling is higher? Maybe he had one great season...and that output simply isn't reasonable.

Not saying it is, just being the devils advocate.
let me just preface by saying that i don't hate jones. if he were paid less, i'd gladly keep him since i think he's one of the better 3rd pairing guys in the league. with carle, we've seen already what he's capable of, even if he's no longer achieving those points. he's taken a step back, but i'm of the opinion that we should give him a chance to get back to form.

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Originally Posted by JXC View Post
Jones was +8 last year, second only to Coburn at +17.

Timonen was even

Kukkonen was +3
Parent -4
Smith -4

Hmmmm who was tops in plus-minus during the playoffs? Guess we'll have to look that up...

http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/teams/ph...ostseason_2007
+/- is such an ambiguous stat that i'm really hesitant to make interpretations of it. i'm more basing my post on constantly seeing gaffes on the part of jones, some of which don't result in goals but certainly allow scoring chances. i realize that a lot of players make mistakes, but it seems that i notice jones more often than others.

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Originally Posted by The Inebriator View Post
Coburn has not been nearly as bad people here make him out to be. A little dissapointing? Sure. But he hasn't been that bad
i can't say i haven't been concerned, but at this point, i'm willing to just blame it on sophomore slump.

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01-12-2009, 01:03 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by The Inebriator View Post
Coburn has not been nearly as bad people here make him out to be. A little dissapointing? Sure. But he hasn't been that bad
The only thing with Coburn that really disappoints me is the bad penalties. I don't think his play has been that horrible, although he's more prone to dumb giveaways this year. I don't understand the Carle love, either. He was very flashy his first few games but I haven't seen him do much since.

I do understand the Jones hate. He's awful and I'm tired of being diplomatic about it.

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01-12-2009, 01:23 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Dig Out Your Soul View Post
The only thing with Coburn that really disappoints me is the bad penalties. I don't think his play has been that horrible, although he's more prone to dumb giveaways this year. I don't understand the Carle love, either. He was very flashy his first few games but I haven't seen him do much since.

I do understand the Jones hate. He's awful and I'm tired of being diplomatic about it.
Self-admitted Carle Honk here. Matty is a good player. But even I agree he contract is steep. The thing I wish Matty had was a partner that stays at home so he can roam in the offensive zone and not be afraid of being caught with his pants down. That and he is an excellent passer. I hope they keep Carle.

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01-12-2009, 01:30 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by The Inebriator View Post
Coburn has not been nearly as bad people here make him out to be. A little dissapointing? Sure. But he hasn't been that bad
I agree with you on this one.

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01-12-2009, 01:34 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by The Inebriator View Post
All you need to do is simply watch them. Jones has been brutal this season, and Carle has for the most part been a good player for us

You can argue that Jones is still getting into the swing of things if you want, but i don't buy it. He's got cement for brains
Are you for real? Jones' season consists of 10 games after a significant surgery.

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01-12-2009, 01:35 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by LEIFey View Post
+/- is such an ambiguous stat that i'm really hesitant to make interpretations of it. i'm more basing my post on constantly seeing gaffes on the part of jones, some of which don't result in goals but certainly allow scoring chances. i realize that a lot of players make mistakes, but it seems that i notice jones more often than others.
I see what yer sayin'.

One could certainly draw some errant conclusion from the +/- data.

I'm just saying he wasn't a disaster last year.

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Old
01-12-2009, 01:37 PM
  #36
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This I agree with. I think a lot of you think everything is a mistake because you expect perfection, which is way too unreasonable.

It's easy to see the options a player has when looking at it from a bird's eye view, but remember he doesn't see the same thing on the ice.

Coburn has been the worst of the three. Carle has been our 2nd best d-man behind Timonen.

They're not all #1 d-men for a reason, folks. I really think soem of you are still bitter about Downie as well - you really need to get over it. He hasn't done anything to even reconsider that trade.
Tend to disagree. He is not even close to our 2nd best. I would say so far it would be


Timonen --> Vaanenen --> Coburn --> Carle -->Alberts --> Jones

Thats how I would rank them. Jones could be infront of Alberts

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01-12-2009, 01:39 PM
  #37
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What are you basing this arguement on? I started the thread cause I knew what type of comments would be had and I was ready to defend.
I'll agree that Carle's a much better defenseman than Jones and it isn't even close. I'm ready to argue.

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Your points;
Let's go over each one shall we?

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Originally Posted by tytech View Post
1)Carles celing is higher? How? Carle has faltered since having a good rookie season.
Carle hasn't faltered. The problem in San Jose was Ron Wilson. Ask any Sharks fan and they will tell you that after Carle's rookie season, Wilson for some reason clamped down on him real hard and expected Carle to play perfect hockey. When Carle didn't, Wilson completely messed with him and had him on such a ridiculously short leash, there was no way he would ever be able to achieve what he did in his rookie season. How does he go from being a competent, puck moving defenseman who can run a power play to someone who is consistently stuck in the coach's dog house for no reason? Ron Wilson was 100% to blame for the Carle's bad season last year.

Carle was never going to be a number one d-man and that he needed a mentor. When Carle got to Tampa Bay, it was a mess of a situation. Funny thing is, when Carle got here, noticed how the Flyers started to turn their game around? He's been one of the better puck moving d-men on this team. He's going to make a mistake or two on defense, but this is a 23 year old defenseman who is only going to get better and better. I'm willing to bet that when he reaches Jones' age, he'll absolutely destroy anything that Randy Jones ever did in the orange and black.

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2)Jones isn't going to get much better. Statistically, Jones has gotten better every year!
Jones started in the league at what age? Carle was a 21, going on 22 year old defenseman when he started. Jones was what, 25-26? Jones also played college hockey right through as a senior and also played in the AHL for a year? Little bit more maturity there so I'm going to say that yeah, Jones is going to improve a little bit year after year. However, as others have pointed out, Jones is going to be 28 and you know what, he still manages to trip over his own two feet at least twice a game and always gives up an inopportune play. Jones should be fed to the lions at this point because he's not going to get any better from here on in. Jones has plateaued and what we see is what we're going to get from him.

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3)If Carle can get back to where he was? Last year, Jones had a very similar season to what you hope Carle amounts to from three years ago. Statistically, Jones is closer to being where we need Carle to be.
Once again, there's about four or five years in age difference between the two. Wait until Carle turns 25 and really matures. He'll be everything that all the Jones lovers wishes he was. Jones couldn't wipe Carle's backside if his life depended on it. Maybe we'll get lucky and Jones' other hip will start acting up on him.

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Carles best season is 11 points more than Jones' best. Carle's was in 06-07 and Jones' was last year. If you look at last year alone, Jones had 31 points and Carle had 15. Is that 11 points more from two years ago worth 800,000 more than jones, plus 3.5 for two more years after?
Carle's best season came as a 22 year old. The best is yet to come. That hack named Jones got lucky and his 31 points will be the best he'll ever see in Philadelphia, unless he gets his backside shipped to the Phantoms. Even then, Jones would probably play second fiddle to Syvret there. Jones is nothing more than an over glorified version of John Slaney who made it to the big show just because our blue line was in bad, bad, bad shape.

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No.
Yes.

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Old
01-12-2009, 01:40 PM
  #38
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The only thing with Coburn that really disappoints me is the bad penalties. I don't think his play has been that horrible, although he's more prone to dumb giveaways this year. I don't understand the Carle love, either. He was very flashy his first few games but I haven't seen him do much since.

I do understand the Jones hate. He's awful and I'm tired of being diplomatic about it.
His dumb hooking/holding penalties come from his not moving his feet and/or being out of position. A secondary concern for me is how tentative he is with the puck.

Both issues could be due to confidence problems. He certainly hasn't looked very decisive this season, something that was apparent during his success last year.


Obvioulsy the salary cap means that a team can't overpay numerous players. For where Jones slots into the lineup right now (a bottom pairing defenseman), the Flyers are spending too much money. If, as an example, Carle is moved and Jones finds himself in the top 4, then his salary doesn't look as terrible.

Carle has fit in pretty well so far; I did think the same of Eminger, though. Someone has to be moved. If it's Carle, the Flyers save a little more money. If it's Jones, the fans get to pick a new whipping boy. At this point, they're fairly similar players, except that Jones has looked every bit a guy who has missed most of the season and Carle is younger.

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01-12-2009, 01:44 PM
  #39
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Jones did not play through to senior in University. He signed with the Flyers after his second year. Guess you don't know it all.

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01-12-2009, 01:55 PM
  #40
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Oooooooooooowee.

Mantra Mania!!!

Quote:
"Carle suffered because his coach treated him unfairly."
Sounds like the mantra on [AHL All Star] Steve Downie and John Stevens.

Quote:
"Carle is young and will only get better and better."
Sounds like the mantra on the potential stud 60 point man and Norris Trophy candidate Joni Pitkanen.

Quote:
Randy Jones has peaked.
Sounds like the mantra on, errr, Randy Jones. For the last three years.


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01-12-2009, 01:57 PM
  #41
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If it's Jones, the fans get to pick a new whipping boy.
I cannot recall a truer statement here, ever.

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01-12-2009, 02:15 PM
  #42
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Jones is the type of 3rd pairing guy that is on teams that have solid defenses. When he is on the second pairing he gets exposed. I would have loved to see Jones and Kukkonen on the 3rd line for the foreseeable future but the revolving door of defenseman and hasty trades made that impossible. Jones isn't good enough to play on the 2nd pairing and gets paid too much to play on the third. He's an NHL defenseman, he proved that last year, but there is no place for him on this team.

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01-12-2009, 02:20 PM
  #43
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let me just preface by saying that i don't hate jones. if he were paid less, i'd gladly keep him since i think he's one of the better 3rd pairing guys in the league. with carle, we've seen already what he's capable of, even if he's no longer achieving those points. he's taken a step back, but i'm of the opinion that we should give him a chance to get back to form.
It's all relative.

If Richards were making 2 million a year he'd be the best player in the league.

I have no problems with Carle or Briere. I just find it funny (Actually, I don't) that Carle has had one good season and he's the messiah. Jones coming off a very good year...and he's muck. I just don't get it. I know everybody will jump on me here and say it's his contract...but the fact of the matter is this...he didn't have this contract last season.

Also, why is it that Carle is guarenteed to improve...and Jones isn't?



I really don't get it.

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01-12-2009, 02:25 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by JXC View Post
Jones was +8 last year, second only to Coburn at +17.

Timonen was even

Kukkonen was +3
Parent -4
Smith -4

Hmmmm who was tops in plus-minus during the playoffs? Guess we'll have to look that up...

http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/teams/ph...ostseason_2007
Who was second in the playoffs in giveaways???? Guess we'll have to look that up

While he played well in the playoffs, lets not get carried away....Biron bailed out that entire team on more than one occasion in the playoffs.

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01-12-2009, 02:35 PM
  #45
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Tend to disagree. He is not even close to our 2nd best. I would say so far it would be


Timonen --> Vaanenen --> Coburn --> Carle -->Alberts --> Jones

Thats how I would rank them. Jones could be infront of Alberts
Fair enough, we'll have to agree to disagree.

Reasons:

Timonen - No brainer. He's a stud, there's no argument here. I'll also add that the following is all under the assumption that Timonen is the best at it unless otherwise noted.

Vaananen - defensively more positionally sound and more physical, but I think Carle is a better 1 on 1 defender, and brings a much better breakout pass (best on the team, in fact - his passes are so adept sometimes that his teammates don't see them and people think these are his turnovers - once the team starts realizing he's back there those magical "turnovers" will go down). He brings a better offesnive game, as well as slightly better footspeed (but minor in the overall). Carle also has a higher hockey IQ, IMO, but he does make mistakes from time to time. People think Vaananen is less prone to mistakes - which is only somewhat true - he's less prone to them because he has to be. He doesn't have the skill to try and make plays - that's not his game, so he's great at playing within himself, but it also affects his breakout and transition games and such. Easily our #3 though, IMO.

Coburn - Our best skating defenseman, and the one with the most potential - but struggles whenever he's not with Timonen. Shows me he's not capable to anchor a pair yet - in fact, Carle is the anchor on the Coburn/Carle pairing, which has to do with Carle's mental game a bit more. Coburn has the most tools to be the best - but his decision making leaves a lot to be desired. I think this will improve over time and he'll be our future #1.

Jones - Not as bad as some people make him out to be, but probably our worst turnover machine. He has the skill to be a second pair, no problem, but Carle's turnovers seem to be because he's trying to make something happen - when Jones turns it over, I'm wondering where he was trying to go with that. If he can work it out, he's fine. But, he's also overkill compared to the rest of the defense. He doesn't do anything that stands out when compared to them, which is why he's the most tradeable. Timonen is our best at most things. Vaananen is our most physical. Carle is our best transition guy. Coburn is our best skater. Jones doesn't do anything better than anybody else, and is still prone to mistakes. Everybody makes mistakes on the team - nobody is perfect. But Jones doesn't have a skill that isn't already covered by somebody better, and has the same issues.

The rest of the D have no argument so no point in discussing them.

These are my thoughts, anyway.

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01-12-2009, 02:42 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by opus View Post
It's all relative.

If Richards were making 2 million a year he'd be the best player in the league.

I have no problems with Carle or Briere. I just find it funny (Actually, I don't) that Carle has had one good season and he's the messiah. Jones coming off a very good year...and he's muck. I just don't get it. I know everybody will jump on me here and say it's his contract...but the fact of the matter is this...he didn't have this contract last season.

Also, why is it that Carle is guarenteed to improve...and Jones isn't?



I really don't get it.
No gurantees in life, but Jones is 27. Carle is 23/24. Probably has something to do with it. Much easier to learn 23->27 than 27->31. Jones is at or just about at his prime right now.

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01-12-2009, 02:53 PM
  #47
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Jones is the type of 3rd pairing guy that is on teams that have solid defenses. When he is on the second pairing he gets exposed. I would have loved to see Jones and Kukkonen on the 3rd line for the foreseeable future but the revolving door of defenseman and hasty trades made that impossible. Jones isn't good enough to play on the 2nd pairing and gets paid too much to play on the third. He's an NHL defenseman, he proved that last year, but there is no place for him on this team.
This pretty much sums up my opinion exactly.

First of all, I will make my argument in numbers. As in: 15-4-5.

That's our record with Carle in the line-up. Remember, when we traded for Carle, we are coming off of a couple truly bad performances against Ottawa and EDM, both teams with significantly less talent than us. Outside of beating NJ twice, the only teams we had actually beaten were the NYI and the Trashers (I leave out the first 'h' on purpose).

Now, it would be totally asinine to say that Carle is the reason for this turnaround. Improved goaltending also has a lot to do with it.

However, I don't think anyone can underestimate the impact he's had on giving us 2 solid top-4 pairings.

I don't hate Jones, I think he's a decent NHL d-man. But what contender has a top-4 with Randy Jones playing 22 minutes per night?

I know you guys aren't thrilled about his contract and neither am I tbh, but when you look at other guys that make 3.5, it doesn't look as bad.

There are definitely weaknesses to Carle's game. He can get a little too fancy and he's definitely on the slower side of being an average skater. But I think he's done an excellent job for us this year. Particularly when you factor in the fact that Coburn has been extremely rocky so far.

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01-12-2009, 03:33 PM
  #48
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Is this serious? Jones blows

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Old
01-12-2009, 03:52 PM
  #49
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Is this serious? Jones blows
+1!

Jones sucks and does not fit on this team anymore, and Carle has been very good for us. I don't see where the argument is.

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Old
01-12-2009, 03:57 PM
  #50
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Is this serious? Jones blows
lol that was funny

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