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Old
01-12-2009, 06:13 PM
  #76
DenverBoone
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
This is a terribly simplistic argument...guys who are really good offensively earn PP time and produce on it? Shocking.

Fact of the matter is that Carle hasn't earned those minutes, even without Briere here. And the point of having an offensive defenseman is that they create and produce offense. The coulda, shoulda, and woulda argument is great and all, but ultimately the Flyers are paying 3.5M for something we haven't really gotten out of him yet. Now, he's certainly showed offensive flair, but not with the consistency that I would like to see.

However...if we double his time, and assume he'd score some more assists, then he'd be right on that pace...seriously?



His defensive positioning is a grave concern. The way he plays right now is terrifying for a potential playoff series. If I were coaching against the Flyers and watching tape of Carle I'd be setting up some breakouts just looking to get breakaways on his side of the ice.

However, defending his production simply along the lines of team play is ridiculous. The reason you're an offensive defenseman is that you produce offense...the reason you get those guys is to help your team produce offense at even strength. If you're saying Carle isn't good enough to help us get offense at even strength...then that's a problem. He's getting 20+ minutes a night, and it isn't like with Timonen where he's getting tossed out there against the stiffest competition each night with the goal of keeping the puck out of our net.

^ Carle Hater? I guess we need a few to balance us Carle honks out.


Last edited by DenverBoone: 01-12-2009 at 06:21 PM.
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Old
01-12-2009, 06:19 PM
  #77
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Who the **** do you guys thing I'm rooting for?

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Old
01-12-2009, 06:20 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by thedjpd View Post
...like?



Jeff Finger?
finger has been very very solid for the leafs by the way. better than carle as a defenseman #1 goal is to play d.

regardless take that 3.5 and other money and get a top pairing dman. gee i bet that never crossed your mind

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01-12-2009, 06:23 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by NWO View Post
finger has been very very solid for the leafs by the way. better than carle as a defenseman #1 goal is to play d.

regardless take that 3.5 and other money and get a top pairing dman. gee i bet that never crossed your mind
Gee, you are right, it never crossed my mind at all! Thanks for that little pearl of wisdom

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Old
01-12-2009, 06:25 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by DenverBoone View Post
Gee, you are right, it never crossed my mind at all! Thanks for that little pearl of wisdom
was i talking to you d ickweed? dont think so. now go to your room.

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Old
01-12-2009, 06:33 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by thedjpd View Post
I really, really doubt any 23 year old defenseman is going to uproot Kimmo Timonen on the point. I think you're being way, way to critical.

There's absolutely no way. Timonen doesn't produce much at even strength either, just like the rest of the defense.

On the PP point, Carle and Timonen are similar in style - they QB it. They shouldn't both be on it to gether, because that's redundant. The reason Coburn is on it is because of his shot, not his ability as a QB or some magical untapped offensive ability.

I really think you have an extremely warped expectation for defensemen - Timonen is awesome but is also double the cost of Carle, or close to it. If he's not better at it, then we'd all be *****ing about Timonen. He better be our best defenseman - expecting the rest of the defense to play mistake-free, perfect hockey would require us to be paying them like such. It doesn't happen. We can't have 6 Timonens back there.

If you're not paying a guy all-star money, he's probably not going to be at an all-star level at everything like you seem to expect.
Timonen is actually VERY good at playing the right point and snapping off one-timers, we just don't put him there because we either have Richards over there...or Coburn. In fact, they tried it out with Timonen on the right side earlier this season before switching back to him being on the left.

So, it isn't about unseating Timonen...it's about what you're getting for your dollar.

The primary reason Timonen doesn't produce at even strength is by choice. He plays stellar and safe defense, not to mention the fact that he's matching up with top lines each and every night. Not so much the case for Carle...he goes forward with almost every single rush and comes up empty handed.

Look, Carle is a nice player...but the point is that he isn't $3.5M nice player. And that contract certainly isn't an asset at his current level.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DenverBoone View Post
^ Carle Hater? I guess we need a few to balance us Carle honks out.
I don't hate Carle at all...I've liked him as an acquisition. That doesn't mean I think his contract is representative of his play, however.

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Old
01-12-2009, 06:43 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by NWO View Post
finger has been very very solid for the leafs by the way. better than carle as a defenseman #1 goal is to play d.

regardless take that 3.5 and other money and get a top pairing dman. gee i bet that never crossed your mind
Gee...

That never ocurred to me either.

I mean, top pairing defensemen are available whenever we want them, not to mention at only $3.5M.

I'd love to see a list of the players you think we could acquire who are top pairing d-men at $3.5M.

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Old
01-12-2009, 06:47 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by thedjpd View Post
Gee...

That never ocurred to me either.

I mean, top pairing defensemen are available whenever we want them, not to mention at only $3.5M.

I'd love to see a list of the players you think we could acquire who are top pairing d-men at $3.5M.
re read the post einstein.

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01-12-2009, 06:49 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Timonen is actually VERY good at playing the right point and snapping off one-timers, we just don't put him there because we either have Richards over there...or Coburn. In fact, they tried it out with Timonen on the right side earlier this season before switching back to him being on the left.

So, it isn't about unseating Timonen...it's about what you're getting for your dollar.

The primary reason Timonen doesn't produce at even strength is by choice. He plays stellar and safe defense, not to mention the fact that he's matching up with top lines each and every night. Not so much the case for Carle...he goes forward with almost every single rush and comes up empty handed.

Look, Carle is a nice player...but the point is that he isn't $3.5M nice player. And that contract certainly isn't an asset at his current level.



I don't hate Carle at all...I've liked him as an acquisition. That doesn't mean I think his contract is representative of his play, however.
I think his contract is fine for his play, actually. I mean, who makes his money and is a not-arguably a better performer?

You of all people argue the premium on defensive players, and hoped for Meszaros in the offseason - who's paid more, and producing less, as an example. Mess of a situation sure, but he hasn't been helping, either. Carle produced right with him in Tampa.

Except the guys that you luck out on who breakout right after they sign their contracts, there aren't exactly a whole lot of options.

I just love it when everybody says we can spend the $3.5M elsewhere and get a better d-man without giving any examples as to who we can get.

I think Carle can QB our PP just fine - he sees plays better than even Timonen, but agreed in that his game is more high risk.

As far as Timonen, even if you do sacrifice defense for offense, the majority of your points still come on the PP - so I'm not sure what difference it makes from a strictly offensive point of view.

I think our d-men don't produce offensively because at even strength because of the system - if you watch the Sharks, or the Thrashers, Todd McClellan and John Anderson have a rotational system where they attack as a unit, instead of forwards and defense.

Their defenseman are always up in the play supporting the forwards, and produce offensively. I don't think Timonen produces offensively because he worries about the defense so much - he's adept enough to know when to pinch and when not to, and get back into position - I think he's encouraged to play it safe.

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Old
01-12-2009, 06:50 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by NWO View Post
re read the post einstein.
As solid as you think Finger has been, he's not top pairing.

Sorry.

He's at best a second pairing defenseman, making him at best no worse than Carle.

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Old
01-12-2009, 06:55 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by thedjpd View Post
As solid as you think Finger has been, he's not top pairing.

Sorry.

He's at best a second pairing defenseman, making him at best no worse than Carle.
i didnt say he was a top pairing guy not onc. you mentioned him not me. he is better than carle though at playing d. I said use carles 3.5 plus OTHER MONEY to acuwire a top pairing guy

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Old
01-12-2009, 07:13 PM
  #87
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Some people are just determined to be unhappy.

Orpik makes 3.75
Finger makes 3.5
Zidlicky makes 3.5
Stuart makes 3.75
Meszaros makes 4.0
Gilbert makes 4.0
Visnovsky makes 5.6

There are always counter-examples such as Wideman and Suter, but if Carle maintains his level of play, I think that the contract is fine.

Also, you guys are making out like he's atrocious defensively. I mean, I think he's average defensively. He'll make mistakes, but he outlets very well and generally has decent body position on the boards, doesn't lose too many 1 v 1 battles.

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Old
01-12-2009, 07:17 PM
  #88
Raffl House
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Some people are just determined to be unhappy.

Orpik makes 3.75
Finger makes 3.5
Zidlicky makes 3.5
Stuart makes 3.75
Meszaros makes 4.0
Gilbert makes 4.0
Visnovsky makes 5.6

There are always counter-examples such as Wideman and Suter, but if Carle maintains his level of play, I think that the contract is fine.

Also, you guys are making out like he's atrocious defensively. I mean, I think he's average defensively. He'll make mistakes, but he outlets very well and generally has decent body position on the boards, doesn't lose too many 1 v 1 battles.
I think he is average defensively, like you said, but I see a lot more calmness and better puck movement with him in the lineup. I also think, in our system, a guy like him doesn't have the opportunity to showcase what he can do. Our defensemen pick up a majority of their points on the PP, unless I'm mistaken. Their job is the first-pass out of the zone and thats about it.

You see it game in and game out when all three forwards are caught deep and its usually an odd-man rush against Carle and everyone else -- tough system to be in.

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Old
01-12-2009, 07:43 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carle Winslow View Post
I think he is average defensively, like you said, but I see a lot more calmness and better puck movement with him in the lineup. I also think, in our system, a guy like him doesn't have the opportunity to showcase what he can do. Our defensemen pick up a majority of their points on the PP, unless I'm mistaken. Their job is the first-pass out of the zone and thats about it.

You see it game in and game out when all three forwards are caught deep and its usually an odd-man rush against Carle and everyone else -- tough system to be in.
You aren't mistaken. I mean, I still don't understand Jester's argument at all, but here's another stat.

Kimmo Timonen ES points (41 games): 7 points
Matt Carle ES points (24 games): 6 points

Obviously Kimmo is the better player and brings loads of other good things to the team, but as far as points (which seems to be all that people on here care about), his production isn't any better than Carle's.

Ossi Vaananen has more ES points than Kimmo in less games. Does that make Vaananen better offensively?

Our d-men don't score a whole lot at ES. It's just a fact of life, it's not just Carle, it's everybody. Coburn also has 9 ES points in 42 games.

Now Carle doesn't get nearly the PP time that Kimmo and Coburn get (he should be getting more than Coburn), and he's blamed for not getting 40 points, I still don't understand why.

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Old
01-12-2009, 07:57 PM
  #90
Raffl House
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
You aren't mistaken. I mean, I still don't understand Jester's argument at all, but here's another stat.

Kimmo Timonen ES points (41 games): 7 points
Matt Carle ES points (24 games): 6 points

Obviously Kimmo is the better player and brings loads of other good things to the team, but as far as points (which seems to be all that people on here care about), his production isn't any better than Carle's.

Ossi Vaananen has more ES points than Kimmo in less games. Does that make Vaananen better offensively?

Our d-men don't score a whole lot at ES. It's just a fact of life, it's not just Carle, it's everybody. Coburn also has 9 ES points in 42 games.

Now Carle doesn't get nearly the PP time that Kimmo and Coburn get (he should be getting more than Coburn), and he's blamed for not getting 40 points, I still don't understand why.
Yay for being mahself!

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Old
01-12-2009, 08:27 PM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
This argument is fairly simplistic (no offense).

Carle is going to put up most of his points on the PP. In his best season in SJ, he put up 26 of his 42 points on the PP, that's 62%.

Last year, Kimmo put up 29 of his 44 points on the PP, that's 66%.

Last year, Lidstrom put up 34 of 70 points on the PP, around 50%.

Last year, Rafalski put up 31 of his 55 points on the PP, 56%.

Also, keep in mind that the Flyers are not a great ES team, in fact, they're pretty darn poor, so a lot of their scoring gets done on the PP.

Now, in Carle's best year, he spent an average of 4:36 per game on the first PP unit. That's not too much out of normal, Kimmo spends 4:26 per game on our PP unit.

By contrast, Carle spends 2:17 per game on the PP. That is a fairly significant drop.

So hypothetically, let's double Carle's time on the unit. He has an admittedly unimpressive 3 A on the PP so far. However, if we double his PP time, that becomes 6 A.

That would give him 12 points in 24 games, a 41 point pace although that's an admittedly small sample size.

Personally, I am more worried about his defensive play and positioning than his point production. Carle is a PP defenseman, most offensive d-men are. If he's not getting PP time, he's not going to produce as much, that's exacerbated by the fact that we are a poor ES team. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out.
This makes sense...but only in theory. Guys play more than others for a reason, if carle was that valuable on the PP he wouldnt be only playing 2 minutes a game. 3 assists isnt a big enough sample to use that example. if he only had 2 points, 1 less bounce for an assist that drastically changes the end result of your math to a 30 point season instead of a 40 point season. You would also have to take away a few points because carle plays a lot of minutes and if he played 2-3 more PP minutes that means a few minutes of ES a game would come off and that means a couple of his points would come off.

Also using your formula we should just play carter 40 minutes a game. Man he would be tearing it up with 58 goals right now if we just doubled his icetime.

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Old
01-12-2009, 09:03 PM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CannonGoBoom View Post
This makes sense...but only in theory. Guys play more than others for a reason, if carle was that valuable on the PP he wouldnt be only playing 2 minutes a game. 3 assists isnt a big enough sample to use that example. if he only had 2 points, 1 less bounce for an assist that drastically changes the end result of your math to a 30 point season instead of a 40 point season. You would also have to take away a few points because carle plays a lot of minutes and if he played 2-3 more PP minutes that means a few minutes of ES a game would come off and that means a couple of his points would come off.

Also using your formula we should just play carter 40 minutes a game. Man he would be tearing it up with 58 goals right now if we just doubled his icetime.
Well, Jester is using the same sample size to suggest that Carle is a 30 point d-man and not worth his contract.

You can't have it both ways.

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Old
01-12-2009, 10:14 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by TheDrizzle81 View Post
Carle vs Jones is like 80's mike Tyson vs a 100 year old woman.
pretty sure tyson got locked up for something like that....it was post face tattoo tho

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Old
01-12-2009, 10:40 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by CantSeeColors View Post
Am I the only one who thinks Carle's contract is actually an asset? If he has truly plateaued and stays at this level, he's probably a bit overpaid, but $3.5M for a second pairing puckmover isn't terrible. However, the kid's 23 or so. What if he becomes a true top pairing guy by the time he's 26 and is still playing for $3.5M?
I agree, it will be a GREAT deal if he progresses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mja View Post
Carle knows where he's passing the puck mid-play before he even gets control of the puck. His touch passes are just off the damn charts. Sometimes his teammates aren't ready for them because they simply can't read the play half as fast as Carle does.
Agreed 100% correct - Carle's passing is superb and is the clear product of a foresight that very very very few players possess.

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