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Old
01-12-2009, 10:26 PM
  #976
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
1st round picks are part of the overpayment and then don't mean **** as a roster spot for more than year and a half. Plek, higgins, subban and a 1st, i get it. but adding a 1st, some extra picks and gorges, nah.
So resign Pleks and Higgins for $8M a season, then resign Komi, then what? Tanguay walks? Kovalev and Koivu resign? Then resign Kosto. And have 10 defenseman.

Yeah, it's really worth collecting assets until they are worth nothing.

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01-12-2009, 10:26 PM
  #977
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Originally Posted by Go Habs Go View Post
This is even more ridiculous then the Sundin rumors. People panicking because Lecavalier makes a lot of money. Is there no room for 1 superstar anymore? Ever heard of paying for what you get? Last I remembered, we don't have any on this team with the exception of maybe Markov who's not being paid as a superstar at all. You people are out of your minds, just finding reason to ***** and whine. How about enjoying the great season we're having, and if we acquire a great player like Lecavalier, thats fantastic, even better, i'd rather support my team as opposed to whining all day Gainey is no fool like some of you might think. The man knows what he's doing. If it really is impossible for the Habs to take on his salary, he would've already said "no, we're not interested in Lecavalier because its financially impossible". Gainey wants to keep his job too like the rest of us, not just win this year and get fired in 2... If he was that stupid and irresponsible, he would've traded someone already and thrown 10 mil at Sundin or he would've pulled the trigger on the overpayment for Hossa.
I'm in the camp that believes that his salary is an issue, but I would still do the deal for the right package (not some of the overpayments we've heard) knowing that he won't be the second coming of Jean Beliveau.

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01-12-2009, 10:27 PM
  #978
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If an often injured Gaborik was offered a 10 year $80 million dollar contract I think it isn't that bad of a deal for a Stanley Cup champion entering his prime and one of the top 5 players in the league in the class of Ovechkin, Malkin, Crosby and Thorton.

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01-12-2009, 10:28 PM
  #979
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ok once and for all it's RE-SIGN, not resign.

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01-12-2009, 10:32 PM
  #980
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Originally Posted by lou4gehrig View Post
So resign Pleks and Higgins for $8M a season, then resign Komi, then what? Tanguay walks? Kovalev and Koivu resign? Then resign Kosto. And have 10 defenseman.

Yeah, it's really worth collecting assets until they are worth nothing.
lol plek and higgins will make 4 each? You don't get it, it's an overpayment a lot because of the extra draft picks, what the **** does that have to do with higgins and plek and UFAs. Honestly. I never objected to higgins and plek.

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01-12-2009, 10:33 PM
  #981
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Originally Posted by Erik Estrada View Post
I'm in the camp that believes that his salary is an issue, but I would still do the deal for the right package (not some of the overpayments we've heard) knowing that he won't be the second coming of Jean Beliveau.
Beliveau was a very good player, but he was hurt alot in his career too. He often missed 10+ games in 70 game seasons (6 times in 17 seasons). Vinny has taken care of his body and there is no reason to think he can't go strong until the end of that contract. If smaller players like Sakic can do it, Vinny certainly can.

Lecavalier has missed 28 out of 779 games in his career (with 14 of those in 1 season). He's amazingly durable. Moreso than Iginla or Crosby.

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01-12-2009, 10:34 PM
  #982
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
lol plek and higgins will make 4 each? You don't get it, it's an overpayment a lot because of the extra draft picks, what the **** does that have to do with higgins and plek and UFAs. Honestly. I never objected to higgins and plek.
Ryder got $4M a season. Yeah it's absolutely crazy to imagine two better players getting the same money.

And 1st round draft picks in the 20's. Your point? What's the point of collecting all these players when you a Markov and Price in their primes ready to win now. At some point you have to commit and go for a cup run.

If the difference in having and not having Vinny is two first round draft picks (let's say 28 and 30), well there is no chance I'd pass on him.

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01-12-2009, 10:35 PM
  #983
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Originally Posted by Schooner Guy View Post
The assets that we are rumoured to be giving up are ludicrous given our current situation. For a 29 year old with a bum shoulder who would rather play in a losing environment if the weather is good, we trade a boatload of effective roster players signed beyond this season and still relatively cheap (Higgins, Pleks, Gorges), a prospect with extreme dedication and the heart of a lion who is salivating to play in Montreal and who has had amazing progression in his game since we drafted him (Subban), and a boatload of high draft picks. Not only that, but we have 11 UFA's after this season who will be more difficult to sign because of Vinny's salary. Also, the salary cap is expected to decrease in the next year or two. People who have longed for a French Canadian superstar center are thinking with their hearts rather than their heads.

I can't wait until a couple of years when we're a replica of the current Tampa Bay Lightning. We'll have Vinny, Price, and a bunch of low cost turds. Bye-Bye Max Pac in 3 years because we can't afford you due to lack of cap space. We also won't be able to replace you because we traded all our 1st round picks away. Can't wait to have Jason Ward on Vinny's line.

Unbelievable!
Great post. I think I'm just as intrigued to see PK develop and shine in Montreal as I am seeing Vinny in a C-H sweater.

The cost though, is likely to extend far enough beyond 'just' PK, that the deal will become "no-brainer" for TB (Unload the salary and get instant quality depth) while for the Habs it becomes a bolt of lightning and the risk of not enough thunder.

To re-state my point, IF any deal is made, I pray Gainey plays it from a position of strength and reason. *Montreal* is not desperate. Tampa Bay might be.

Sucks to be them.

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01-12-2009, 10:37 PM
  #984
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Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
Wow, just wow. Exaggerate much?

Detroit had and still has Lidstrom (7 M), Datsyuk (6.7 M) and Rafalski (6 M). There's plenty of depth still on that team, despite 3 immense salaries. Oh and there's Hossa at a monster cap hit this year too! No Jason Ward's playing on that team's first line.

Anaheim in their cup run had Pronger (6.25 M) and Niedermayer (6.75 M). Their depth didn't suffer one iota and it was Burke trying to replace Niedermayer and Selanne as they were possibly retiring that got them into cap hell.

Thornton (7.2 M), Marleau (6.3 M) and Boyle (6.66 M). SJ still has great depth, even with those 3 big salaries.

It's unbelievable that some of you have suddenly convinced yourself that just because a team has 1 or 2 players making 6-7 M, they are going to become the new Tampa Bay or Ottawa.

The Tampa model (the Big 3 era) became a disaster because:

- They drafted HORRIBLY. Check their draft history between 1998 to now. Beyond putrid. Worst drafting in the NHL. They had no young cheap talent coming up to fill the gaps!

- They didn't even spend close to the cap last year.

- Dan Boyle suffered a ridiculously unlucky injury that caused him to miss the majority of the season. That began their downfall.

- BEYOND TERRIBLE GOALTENDING. How is that a problem in MTL going forward?
O'REALY?

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01-12-2009, 10:39 PM
  #985
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As I said in another post, if something has to be done regarding Vinny, it will be somewhere between the end of the season and jully 1st.. There is no way we can make his salary fit in the roster this season..

As for next summer, guys like Kovalev Tanguay Koivu Komi Dandy Begin Kosto are all UFA, so its another story.. I believe Komisarek will be the priority, I wouldnt be surprised to see Kosto back as well.. IMO Kovalev Tanguay Dandy and Begin are all gone and Koivu is 50\50.. So its already 13-18 millions saved.. Then we should be able to make a trade for Lecavalier..

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01-12-2009, 10:40 PM
  #986
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Ryder got $4M a season. Yeah it's absolutely crazy to imagine two better players getting the same money.

And 1st round draft picks in the 20's. Your point? What's the point of collecting all these players when you a Markov and Price in their primes ready to win now. At some point you have to commit and go for a cup run.

If the difference in having and not having Vinny is two first round draft picks (let's say 28 and 30), well there is no chance I'd pass on him.
Ryder got overpayed and even then, he hit 30 goals already. Higgins may but hasn't. Plek's poor season so far and higgins injury don't exactly scream Big money contract.

You do have to commit and go for a cup run, I agree. I'm not saying don't get vinny. I'm just saying it's an overpayment big time. Like i said, plek, higgins, subban, 1st round pick and 2nd round pick...is like...alright...fine. Adding gorges and another 1st is way too much.

Besides, you talk about going for it now, we all want to win, but tell me, how are we gonna win when we're looking to improve our D and instead lose another top 4 d-man?

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01-12-2009, 10:43 PM
  #987
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Great post. I think I'm just as intrigued to see PK develop and shine in Montreal as I am seeing Vinny in a C-H sweater.

The cost though, is likely to extend far enough beyond 'just' PK, that the deal will become "no-brainer" for TB (Unload the salary and get instant quality depth) while for the Habs it becomes a bolt of lightning and the risk of not enough thunder.

To re-state my point, IF any deal is made, I pray Gainey plays it from a position of strength and reason. *Montreal* is not desperate. Tampa Bay might be.
Sucks to be them.
That's an important question:

1) Is TB creating a bidding war by using Mtl, and we only get Vinny for a ridiculous amount?: or,

2) It's more of closed two-way deal-making with Mtl because A) Vinny said he wants to go only to Mtl (or some teams that are in a weak position to deal) and B) TB management will respect Vinny's wish. In that case I think we could get a decent deal that won't cripple us.

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01-12-2009, 10:45 PM
  #988
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Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
Wow, just wow. Exaggerate much?

Detroit had and still has Lidstrom (7 M), Datsyuk (6.7 M) and Rafalski (6 M). There's plenty of depth still on that team, despite 3 immense salaries. Oh and there's Hossa at a monster cap hit this year too! No Jason Ward's playing on that team's first line.

Anaheim in their cup run had Pronger (6.25 M) and Niedermayer (6.75 M). Their depth didn't suffer one iota and it was Burke trying to replace Niedermayer and Selanne as they were possibly retiring that got them into cap hell.

Thornton (7.2 M), Marleau (6.3 M) and Boyle (6.66 M). SJ still has great depth, even with those 3 big salaries.

It's unbelievable that some of you have suddenly convinced yourself that just because a team has 1 or 2 players making 6-7 M, they are going to become the new Tampa Bay or Ottawa.

The Tampa model (the Big 3 era) became a disaster because:

- They drafted HORRIBLY. Check their draft history between 1998 to now. Beyond putrid. Worst drafting in the NHL. They had no young cheap talent coming up to fill the gaps!

- They didn't even spend close to the cap last year.

- Dan Boyle suffered a ridiculously unlucky injury that caused him to miss the majority of the season. That began their downfall.

- BEYOND TERRIBLE GOALTENDING. How is that a problem in MTL going forward?
Everyone needs to read this.
Everything I wanted to say, written way better than I could ever manage.

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01-12-2009, 10:45 PM
  #989
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Originally Posted by Schooner Guy View Post
The assets that we are rumoured to be giving up are ludicrous given our current situation. For a 29 year old with a bum shoulder who would rather play in a losing environment if the weather is good, we trade a boatload of effective roster players signed beyond this season and still relatively cheap (Higgins, Pleks, Gorges), a prospect with extreme dedication and the heart of a lion who is salivating to play in Montreal and who has had amazing progression in his game since we drafted him (Subban), and a boatload of high draft picks. Not only that, but we have 11 UFA's after this season who will be more difficult to sign because of Vinny's salary. Also, the salary cap is expected to decrease in the next year or two. People who have longed for a French Canadian superstar center are thinking with their hearts rather than their heads.

I can't wait until a couple of years when we're a replica of the current Tampa Bay Lightning. We'll have Vinny, Price, and a bunch of low cost turds. Bye-Bye Max Pac in 3 years because we can't afford you due to lack of cap space. We also won't be able to replace you because we traded all our 1st round picks away. Can't wait to have Jason Ward on Vinny's line.

Unbelievable!
Yeah, he's got a bum shoulder yet has more points than any of our players and is playing + hockey on a terrible team. 236 points in his last 204 games. Remember that.

Has he even missed a single game this season??? NO? I thought he was hurt. He's missed 6 GAMES in 6 SEASONS. Compare that with Kovalev, Koivu, Tanguay, etc.

We're basically a team of overachievers. Guys who work really hard and get good results. Once in awhile you have to inject that with a top level talent (like Price) to make the difference. If we don't go for a superstar player, we'll always be looking up at the teams of Ovechkin and Malkin and Crosby as they ride to the cup finals every year.

When you have a chance to acquire an elite talent, you go for it. And we have so many assets right now, it's the perfect time.

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01-12-2009, 10:46 PM
  #990
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Well i'd like both Subban and Gorges not to be included.

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01-12-2009, 10:47 PM
  #991
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To re-state my point, IF any deal is made, I pray Gainey plays it from a position of strength and reason. *Montreal* is not desperate. Tampa Bay might be.

Sucks to be them.
Exactly, TB isn't exactly in a good salary cap standing nor in any good standing for that matter. They tied up too much money and are losing now big time, the supposed offer can't even be matched by 90% of the teams in the league unless they rid themselves of their best players. Montreal is one of the few teams in the league to pull this off and still be competitive. Why should we pay so much? We're top 5 in the league, we're not desperate.

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01-12-2009, 10:48 PM
  #992
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Ryder got overpayed and even then, he hit 30 goals already. Higgins may but hasn't. Plek's poor season so far and higgins injury don't exactly scream Big money contract.

You do have to commit and go for a cup run, I agree. I'm not saying don't get vinny. I'm just saying it's an overpayment big time. Like i said, plek, higgins, subban, 1st round pick and 2nd round pick...is like...alright...fine. Adding gorges and another 1st is way too much.

Besides, you talk about going for it now, we all want to win, but tell me, how are we gonna win when we're looking to improve our D and instead lose another top 4 d-man?
Vinny for 10 years or Plek+Gorges+Higgins+2 last first round picks. Which will win you more games and have a better chance to win a cup?

NHL hockey is a game of stars. That's why teams with superstars win the cup every year. Not the deepest team, but the team with best top line pairing and the best top two lines and the best goalie.

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01-12-2009, 10:49 PM
  #993
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Doesn't mean anything, just because he doesn't make an assist doesn't mean he isn't on the ice for a goal. I don't see why you guys would choose assists. You're assuming at the end of the season this team only scores 50 or 60 goals? It makes no sense. You're just assuming these guys are the only point producers on the team. There are less players who score 50 then players who make 60 assists anyway. Maybe it's just me but the 50 goals scorer wins everytime. We'll just agree to disagree.
its not that i necessarily disagree 100 percent with you. In the Thornton and Vinny case we are talking about a difference of often upwards of 20 point differential.

If we were talking a 50 goal 65 assists Lecavalier than i'd be more inclined to take him over the 25 goal 100 assists Thornton.

There has been only a few seasons were Vinny has been close to Joe in total points. Aside from 2 seasons, Vinny has been a 65 to 80 point guy while Joe has been a pretty consistent 90-100. Thats a big difference.

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01-12-2009, 10:49 PM
  #994
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Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
Wow, just wow. Exaggerate much?

Detroit had and still has Lidstrom (7 M), Datsyuk (6.7 M) and Rafalski (6 M). There's plenty of depth still on that team, despite 3 immense salaries. Oh and there's Hossa at a monster cap hit this year too! No Jason Ward's playing on that team's first line.

Anaheim in their cup run had Pronger (6.25 M) and Niedermayer (6.75 M). Their depth didn't suffer one iota and it was Burke trying to replace Niedermayer and Selanne as they were possibly retiring that got them into cap hell.

Thornton (7.2 M), Marleau (6.3 M) and Boyle (6.66 M). SJ still has great depth, even with those 3 big salaries.

It's unbelievable that some of you have suddenly convinced yourself that just because a team has 1 or 2 players making 6-7 M, they are going to become the new Tampa Bay or Ottawa.

The Tampa model (the Big 3 era) became a disaster because:

- They drafted HORRIBLY. Check their draft history between 1998 to now. Beyond putrid. Worst drafting in the NHL. They had no young cheap talent coming up to fill the gaps!

- They didn't even spend close to the cap last year.

- Dan Boyle suffered a ridiculously unlucky injury that caused him to miss the majority of the season. That began their downfall.

- BEYOND TERRIBLE GOALTENDING. How is that a problem in MTL going forward?
Not to mention as soon as Bulin left they lost their stopper that also made those players look good as well.

Tampa was a product of their own making, they didn't build outside the 3.

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01-12-2009, 10:51 PM
  #995
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its not that i necessarily disagree 100 percent with you. In the Thornton and Vinny case we are talking about a difference of often upwards of 20 point differential in points.

If we were talking a 50 goal 65 assists Lecavalier than i'd be more inclined to take him over the 25 goal 100 assists Thornton.

There has been only a few seasons were Vinny has been close to Joe in total points. Aside from 2 seasons, Vinny has been a 70 to 80 point guy while Joe has been a pretty consistent 90-100. Thats a big difference.
And Lecavalier has won the cup and Thornton has done squat in the playoffs.

That's an important difference to me.

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01-12-2009, 10:53 PM
  #996
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It's hard to know how bad the contract will be in ten years. Revenues might grow again sharply after the recession. And I also wonder: are player salaries indexed to inflation? Probably. But there is also the possibility of some kind of relief in a future CBA. If there are too many deadweight contracts like there were last time, there might be ways to mitigate the pain. So the cap hit might not be too bad. (To be honest, I don't really care about the owner's money in trying to analyze whether I like this rumour as a Habs fan.)

As for the players involved, if Mackenzie is right, then that is a very ouchy price to pay. They're all good players, but Gorges is maybe the hardest to part with because he has no immediate replacement and he is very inexpensive. It just weakens a defence that needs improving. If Ranger were included, then it's not as bad, but I'd rather just keep Gorges.

Anyway, I think the Habs have enough depth that they could make this deal without being barren for the future. If Subban goes, there's still Carle and Weber, McDonagh, O'Byrne and perhaps even the wayward duo of Emelin and Valentenko. Conveniently, Koivu and Tanguay could replace Plekanec and Higgins in a matter of weeks. There is still Pacioretty, D'Agostini, the Kostitsyns, Latendresse, Lapierre, Maxwell and Chipchura in the now or near future. The draft picks, undisclosed at the moment, are another matter, but I think the organization could absorb the loss of the rumoured players in a trade for Lecavalier.

Unless the guy's shoulder is Havlat-chronic, I would probably make that deal, though the Gorges aspect bugs me. And for whatever it's worth, I'd make that deal as TB.

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01-12-2009, 10:54 PM
  #997
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another difference why lecavalier would be a perfect fit here is that he is a goal scorer, besides andrei, we do not have a pure sniper on this team and yes lecavalier is a complete player, he already scored 50 goals in a season and is what we need, a player who can put the puck in the net

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01-12-2009, 10:55 PM
  #998
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It's hard to know how bad the contract will be in ten years. Revenues might grow again sharply after the recession. And I also wonder: are player salaries indexed to inflation? Probably. But there is also the possibility of some kind of relief in a future CBA. If there are too many deadweight contracts like there were last time, there might be ways to mitigate the pain. So the cap hit might not be too bad. (To be honest, I don't really care about the owner's money in trying to analyze whether I like this rumour as a Habs fan.)

As for the players involved, if Mackenzie is right, then that is a very ouchy price to pay. They're all good players, but Gorges is maybe the hardest to part with because he has no immediate replacement and he is very inexpensive. It just weakens a defence that needs improving. If Ranger were included, then it's not as bad, but I'd rather just keep Gorges.

Anyway, I think the Habs have enough depth that they could make this deal without being barren for the future. If Subban goes, there's still Carle and Weber, McDonagh, O'Byrne and perhaps even the wayward duo of Emelin and Valentenko. Conveniently, Koivu and Tanguay could replace Plekanec and Higgins in a matter of weeks. There is still Pacioretty, D'Agostini, the Kostitsyns, Latendresse, Lapierre, Maxwell and Chipchura in the now or near future. The draft picks, undisclosed at the moment, are another matter, but I think the organization could absorb the loss of the rumoured players in a trade for Lecavalier.

Unless the guy's shoulder is Havlat-chronic, I would probably make that deal, though the Gorges aspect bugs me. And for whatever it's worth, I'd make that deal as TB.
When has signing a superstar, franchise center to a long-term contract ever been a bad investment? Ever?

And no, I'm talking about freakin' Briere, because he is neither a superstar nor a franchise center.

Like I keep saying, 6 games missed in 6 seasons. Do not question his durability.

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01-12-2009, 10:56 PM
  #999
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And Lecavalier has won the cup and Thornton has done squat in the playoffs.

That's an important difference to me.
yeah and Lecavalier has won a Cup over Ovechkin yet i don't think there is a single person in there right mind that would take Vinny before him. That is a terrible argument.

Brisebois has a Cup ring, it doesn't mean i'd rather not have about 100 other defenseman in the NHL.

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01-12-2009, 10:56 PM
  #1000
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Vinny for 10 years or Plek+Gorges+Higgins+2 last first round picks. Which will win you more games and have a better chance to win a cup?

NHL hockey is a game of stars. That's why teams with superstars win the cup every year. Not the deepest team, but the team with best top line pairing and the best top two lines and the best goalie.
Offense wins games, defence wins championships. Say what you want but not only are we ridding ourselves of a player who has emerged as a top 4 D, but also 2 of the best two-way forwards on our team. You don't get it, long term this deal cripples us as it does short term. Lecavalier is great, but adding gorges and considering the talent we could've got for cheap in the next 10 years with those picks we're not in a better position.

Komi-Markov
Hammer-Brisebois
Boullion-Weber

Wow, that d-core isn't bad, but if you think you're gonna outplay the lidstroms and prongers of the league...good luck.

Like i said, i can do with most of the terms, but consider we want to add another top 4 because we want a BETTER defence, why would we make it worst by getting rid of gorges. Bad enough, like i said, we lost some good defence forwards, but we lose out on our defensive depth.

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