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2009 Roster Moves and Contract Talks. Contract Numbers (Post #1/#826).

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Old
01-12-2009, 03:51 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Only in a Bettman-less universe would Hossa have gotten the Campbell. Had the Pens won, we KNOW who would get the MVP trophy. He was getting more attention than the players and team that DID win.

However, Hossa had as spectacular a playoff run as did Z.
I know Hossa is good, but he's not an entire team. Plus he was in the wrong conference. I don't think he had a prayer of winning the Campbell last year.

The Conn Smythe however.....


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01-12-2009, 05:01 PM
  #102
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I know Hossa is good, but he's not an entire team. Plus he was in the wrong conference. I don't think he had a prayer of winning the Campbell last year.

The Conn Smythe however.....

Yeah, as I was out shopping for some grub, I realized I'd had a brain fart. I wondered which of my fellow posters would be the first to call me on it.

 
Old
01-12-2009, 05:03 PM
  #103
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Yeah, as I was out shopping for some grub, I realized I'd had a brain fart. I wondered which of my fellow posters would be the first to call me on it.
you can be happy it was only FF and not some fellow mo...member.

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01-12-2009, 05:23 PM
  #104
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Please give me an example of "Locker room leadership". What you're saying is that he couldn't be captain because his english is bad. On the other hand, he talks with refs constantly and dare I say, leads by example?

Jesus, do you guys just think that Datsyuk sits in the corner and says nothing to any of his teammates without a translator? Or that somehow the team is going to listen to Hank because hes slightly better at English?

This is to the point of grasping straws, it always comes down to this.

And I wasn't talking about the rest of the league underestimating Datsyuk. I was specifically talking about Wings fans. Datsyuk started receiving respect around the league before he got it from most Detroit fans.

Like ive said, hes proven himself to be a playoff performer, hes got two cups. Hes got a Selke and will probably get another one this season and hes on pace for 93 points. What else can the guy do?

Hes literally been the most consistent and high scoring player since Yzerman and yet he still plays in Zetterberg's shadow.

I tend to believe that MOST Wings fans get their talking points and beliefs from Ken Daniels. It seems to be a fairly accurate trend. Two seasons ago, he never discussed Datsyuk playing defense, even though he had an insane takeaway total. On the other hand, he constantly talked about Zetterberg playing strong defense, sometimes calling him "The best two way player in the game".

Last season that changed. Daniels started bringing up Datsyuk's takeaway totals and defensive play. This then led to a large percentage of Wings fans on various message boards pushing for Datsyuk to be in the Selke running.

Mickey Redmond has been pushing Datsyuk since he broke into the league and I fully agree with him when he said "Hes the best player in the league".

1. You honestly believe Datsyuk skates to the refs and talks about how to interpret rules? He actually blasts a "**** off" and says "homer no crease!" That's all he ever says to any ref.

2. What red wing fan didn't give Dats respect before the league? Dats has been our superstar highlight reel playmaker for seasons upon seasons now and we love and thank him for it.

I am glad that you are a Dats fan, but instead of praising him as the cream of the crop, to you its like Datsyuk is amazing and the rest of the wings are garbage. You have bashed Zetterberg and Lidstrom repeatedly on these boards and those on LGW, so is it possible that there is a fan out there who's fav player is Datsyuk, and the wings are NOT their favorite team? Its almost hard to believe.

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01-12-2009, 05:32 PM
  #105
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1. You honestly believe Datsyuk skates to the refs and talks about how to interpret rules? He actually blasts a "**** off" and says "homer no crease!" That's all he ever says to any ref.
nah, he skates to refs, smiles and says: "i trust my eyes to dr. rhamani, you should too."

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01-12-2009, 05:38 PM
  #106
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nah, he skates to refs, smiles and says: "i trust my eyes to dr. rhamani, you should too."


Hey, how bout you come to disco....

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01-12-2009, 06:33 PM
  #107
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I can't believe this thread has been so derailed with this datsyuk vs zetterberg argument. seriously, this isn't ovechkin vs crosby here. who cares who's better. they're both here now and neither is likely to leave anytime in the foreseeable future. Datsyuk is a great player who's made a ton of highlight reel plays. No one's arguing about that. Zetterberg's been hyped by many, not just those of us on messageboards either as the next captain since he came into this league. Hell, there's a reason yzerman took z under his wing during his last year. But anyway, back to our regularly scheduled programming.

I tend to believe the same as Jussha. All it's going to take is 1 of the big 3 signing a great deal to force the hands of the other 2, should Hossa truly want to stay here beyond this year. Numbers are irrelevant right now because unless Hossa or Zetterberg take major hometown discounts I can't see us signing all 3. Personally I believe Hossa more than likely will cash in somewhere else next year regardless if we win a cup or not. Once again, unless we move someone during the off season, we'll be right up against the cap again. Later on I'll try and play with the numbers and see what the best scenario is that I can come up with.

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01-12-2009, 06:37 PM
  #108
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Yeah, as I was out shopping for some grub, I realized I'd had a brain fart. I wondered which of my fellow posters would be the first to call me on it.
Was there ever any doubt?

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01-12-2009, 08:02 PM
  #109
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Mod Edit: deleted.

Because Datsyuk has been degraded and underated since 2003 because he didn't single handily win a cup every season hes played in the league?

Zetterberg has been overrated by this fan base for about two years, while everyone had some reason to question Datsyuk. Now that Datsyuk is better in every aspect of the game, its hard not to point out. Especially when most of the Zetterberg supporters are the same that wanted to trade Datsyuk in 2006.

Literally, what else can the guy do? 97 points, 30 goals, selke, byng and a cup and people are still putting Z over him. It makes no sense.

I for one will jump for joy the day when Datsyuk is introduced as captain. It will make my life complete.
A few things:

--You're wildly overreacting to this percieved anti-Datsyuk agenda. I don't think it exists. Yes, Datsyuk has been phenomenal for Detroit... but so has Zetterberg. At a certain point you're comparing and contrasting two Lamborghini's, so these fairly wild verbal gesticulations of yours over the slender differences others percieve between the two guys seems a bit excessive.

--The last three full years the totals are Datsyuk with 86 goals and 185 assists in 236 games, and Zetterberg with 115 goals, 130 assists in 215 games. 1.15 points a game for Datsyuk (assist heavy) and 1.14 points a game for Zetterberg (goal heavy). There's not a huge difference between those guys, beyond perhaps the durability issue. I personally tend to weight goals more heavily than assists, but YMMV.

--The last three full playoffs the totals are Datsyuk with 18 goals and 24 assists in 45 games, and Zetterberg with 27 goals and 22 assists in 46 games. Advantage Zetterberg.

IMO a rational, unbiased observer can look at what has happened the last three years and conclude that, while close, Zetterberg's been the more offensively productive player over the past three full seasons, and significantly so in the playoffs. At that point one has to resort to quantfying the unquantifiable 'defense'. IMO, again, they are very similar players. Datsyuk won last years' Selke, but Zetterberg was a very close 3rd. Datsyuk plays defense with his stick, Zetterberg plays it with more speed and positioning.

They're close, but I think Zetterberg has the better overall game. The injury thing is his big bugaboo.

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Old
01-12-2009, 08:05 PM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
A few things:

--You're wildly overreacting to this percieved anti-Datsyuk agenda. I don't think it exists. Yes, Datsyuk has been phenomenal for Detroit... but so has Zetterberg. At a certain point you're comparing and contrasting two Lamborghini's, so these fairly wild verbal gesticulations of yours over the slender differences others percieve between the two guys seems a bit excessive.

--The last three full years the totals are Datsyuk with 86 goals and 185 assists in 236 games, and Zetterberg with 115 goals, 130 assists in 215 games. 1.15 points a game for Datsyuk (assist heavy) and 1.14 points a game for Zetterberg (goal heavy). There's not a huge difference between those guys, beyond perhaps the durability issue. I personally tend to weight goals more heavily than assists, but YMMV.

--The last three full playoffs the totals are Datsyuk with 18 goals and 24 assists in 45 games, and Zetterberg with 27 goals and 22 assists in 46 games. Advantage Zetterberg.

IMO a rational, unbiased observer can look at what has happened the last three years and conclude that, while close, Zetterberg's been the more offensively productive player over the past three full seasons, and significantly so in the playoffs. At that point one has to resort to quantfying the unquantifiable 'defense'. IMO, again, they are very similar players. Datsyuk won last years' Selke, but Zetterberg was a very close 3rd. Datsyuk plays defense with his stick, Zetterberg plays it with more speed and positioning.

They're close, but I think Zetterberg has the better overall game. The injury thing is his big bugaboo.
This

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01-12-2009, 09:00 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
A few things:

--You're wildly overreacting to this percieved anti-Datsyuk agenda. I don't think it exists. Yes, Datsyuk has been phenomenal for Detroit... but so has Zetterberg. At a certain point you're comparing and contrasting two Lamborghini's, so these fairly wild verbal gesticulations of yours over the slender differences others percieve between the two guys seems a bit excessive.

--The last three full years the totals are Datsyuk with 86 goals and 185 assists in 236 games, and Zetterberg with 115 goals, 130 assists in 215 games. 1.15 points a game for Datsyuk (assist heavy) and 1.14 points a game for Zetterberg (goal heavy). There's not a huge difference between those guys, beyond perhaps the durability issue. I personally tend to weight goals more heavily than assists, but YMMV.

--The last three full playoffs the totals are Datsyuk with 18 goals and 24 assists in 45 games, and Zetterberg with 27 goals and 22 assists in 46 games. Advantage Zetterberg.

IMO a rational, unbiased observer can look at what has happened the last three years and conclude that, while close, Zetterberg's been the more offensively productive player over the past three full seasons, and significantly so in the playoffs. At that point one has to resort to quantfying the unquantifiable 'defense'. IMO, again, they are very similar players. Datsyuk won last years' Selke, but Zetterberg was a very close 3rd. Datsyuk plays defense with his stick, Zetterberg plays it with more speed and positioning.

They're close, but I think Zetterberg has the better overall game. The injury thing is his big bugaboo.
i think you should look at the last 2 playoffs though cause wasn't datsyuk injured quite badly in the series upset against edmonton. If you look at the last 2 years of playoffs they're production doesn't favor one over the other

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01-12-2009, 09:04 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Jussha View Post
i think you should look at the last 2 playoffs though cause wasn't datsyuk injured quite badly in the series upset against edmonton. If you look at the last 2 years of playoffs they're production doesn't favor one over the other
He did play 1 games less than Zetterberg.

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01-13-2009, 09:32 AM
  #113
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Why use the last three playoffs to illustrate Zetterberg's dominance? The last three playoff series coincidentally fall in line with Zetterberg and Datsyuk playing together full time.

The only playoff series they didn't play together was Edmonton, Z scored six goals in six games and Datsyuk couldn't walk but played great defense.

They're nearly identical players in the playoffs and as ive proven already in this thread, Zetterberg's stats jump significantly when playing with Datsyuk.

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01-13-2009, 10:37 AM
  #114
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Well while it is clear datsyuk is the indisputable most dominate player on the wings atm, go ahead check the stats sheets and or game reels, it should be noted since he got hot he has been getting less ice time. Babcock started playing Z/Hossa 20-22 min a game whereas Dats has only been playing 16-18 min a game on average. ( I eyeballed those numbers btw). Less ice time= more energy= more production possibly.

For the record I am in Dats camp. I think he is the better player and I honestly dont think its close. IMO there is a strong case that Dats is the best player in the world. He is currently 5th in the league in points and not playing with hossa or Z at regular strength.

That being said i already mentioned Z is worth a 7.2- 7.3M contract. Id love to play fantasy land and hope he will get a Datsyuk contract but thats just not realistic. Though with each passing day i believe Z loses value on his contract. As the economy worsens and his play continues to be overshadowed by hossa/dats he is burning contract dollars.

With a first round playoff loss your looking at Z signing for 6.7M imo. With another playoff MVP your looking north of 8M.


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01-13-2009, 10:39 AM
  #115
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back on topic, just listened to Kenny's interview on The Huge Show (via mlive), he says 3-4 guys from this year's Griffs team will be Wings next year. i suppose it's not all that surprising of a revelation, but those are 3-4 spots that current guys won't have.
probably up next year: Ericsson, Helm, Leino, Howard.

is it possible for Malts & Drapes to come down with some strain of Hatcheritis or Rathjeitis that has gotten Philly around the cap?

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01-13-2009, 11:30 AM
  #116
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Well while it is clear datsyuk is the indisputable most dominate player on the wings atm, go ahead check the stats sheets and or game reals, it should be noted since he got hot he has been getting less ice time. Babcock started playing Z/Hossa 20-22 min a game whereas Dats has only been playing 16-18 min a game on average. ( I eyeballed those numbers btw). Less ice time= more energy= more production possibly.

For the record I am in Dats camp. I think he is the better player and I honestly dont think its close. IMO there is a strong case that Dats is the best player in the world. He is currently 5th in the league in points and not playing with hossa or Z at regular strength.

That being said i already mentioned Z is worth a 7.2- 7.3M contract. Id love to play fantasy land and hope he will get a Datsyuk contract but thats just not realistic. Though with each passing day i believe Z loses value on his contract. As the economy worsens and his play continues to be overshadowed by hossa/dats he is burning contract dollars.

With a first round playoff loss your looking at Z signing for 6.7M imo. With another playoff MVP your looking north of 8M.
Zetterberg gets more ice time because when his PP unit is on the ice, they camp out and spend 80% of the PP shift on the ice. Its been happening all season.

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01-13-2009, 11:35 AM
  #117
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back on topic, just listened to Kenny's interview on The Huge Show (via mlive), he says 3-4 guys from this year's Griffs team will be Wings next year. i suppose it's not all that surprising of a revelation, but those are 3-4 spots that current guys won't have.
probably up next year: Ericsson, Helm, Leino, Howard.

is it possible for Malts & Drapes to come down with some strain of Hatcheritis or Rathjeitis that has gotten Philly around the cap?
I also listened to that interview. The GR potentials are as you list, tiwht Howard, Helm and Ericsson having to clear waviers(they won't, to be sent to GR). Leino makes sense because the Wings will lose one of the big 3, likely Franzen.


Comparing Z and pav. Be thankful to have both.

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01-13-2009, 11:49 AM
  #118
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Zetterberg gets more ice time because when his PP unit is on the ice, they camp out and spend 80% of the PP shift on the ice. Its been happening all season.
Although I am in the camp that thinks Datsyuk is the better player and think you are a bit too hard on Z though, I do agree with this statement. I have noticed in the past two weeks there are times when if the Z unit starts the PP, they are on for the entire 2 minutes, but I don't think that would account for the entire ice time differences.

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01-13-2009, 12:11 PM
  #119
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Im being hard on a guy who is pushing for 10 years and $80 million? If Zetterberg deserves a lifetime contract, nearly making Crosby money than he needs to play at or above Datsyuk's level. And he is clearly not.

Hypothetically what happens to Zetterberg if Datsyuk scores 100 + points this season and leads the team in playoff scoring?

If anything you guys are too quick to hand a massive deal to a player who may or may not deserve it.

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01-13-2009, 12:44 PM
  #120
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Im being hard on a guy who is pushing for 10 years and $80 million? If Zetterberg deserves a lifetime contract, nearly making Crosby money than he needs to play at or above Datsyuk's level. And he is clearly not.

Hypothetically what happens to Zetterberg if Datsyuk scores 100 + points this season and leads the team in playoff scoring?

If anything you guys are too quick to hand a massive deal to a player who may or may not deserve it.
do we know though that is what Z is looking for? I didn't know that if that is true, and I hope that is it not.

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01-13-2009, 12:57 PM
  #121
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Im being hard on a guy who is pushing for 10 years and $80 million? If Zetterberg deserves a lifetime contract, nearly making Crosby money than he needs to play at or above Datsyuk's level. And he is clearly not.

Hypothetically what happens to Zetterberg if Datsyuk scores 100 + points this season and leads the team in playoff scoring?

If anything you guys are too quick to hand a massive deal to a player who may or may not deserve it.
I think he deserves about Thornton Money. You can balance the reasons but Thornton has a good contract. I would ofc contend that Thornton is more valuable to his team then Z but there are some factors in Z's favor as well including when he signs the contract. Hence I keep saying 7.2-7.3 is fairest to the team and the players. Term is the kicker ofc.

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01-13-2009, 01:08 PM
  #122
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do we know though that is what Z is looking for? I didn't know that if that is true, and I hope that is it not.
as far as I know, no. There was an article from awhile back that said that Z's side was looking at $8 million per. Next to that was a blurb that Holland was looking for a long term contract stretching 7-10 years. Since then the two seem to have gotten intermixed and thrown together a bit. My bet is that Z's agent came in asked for a short contract averaging around $8 million per season and Holland countered with a long contract with a smaller cap hit.

Personally, I think Solo's got the eventual cap hit pretty well nailed. I'd be surprised if the number is significantly higher or lower than that, assuming the term is long.

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01-15-2009, 05:23 AM
  #123
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Im being hard on a guy who is pushing for 10 years and $80 million? If Zetterberg deserves a lifetime contract, nearly making Crosby money than he needs to play at or above Datsyuk's level. And he is clearly not.

Hypothetically what happens to Zetterberg if Datsyuk scores 100 + points this season and leads the team in playoff scoring?

If anything you guys are too quick to hand a massive deal to a player who may or may not deserve it.
We don't know this.

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01-15-2009, 11:33 AM
  #124
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for my 2 cents on the D vs Z debate going on (which, IMO, is dumb, because they are both Wings now...) I give the nod to Datsyuk as the better player. Z has played incredible when paired with Dats, and this season shows that. While Z is still hovering around a point-per-game pace, he hasn't been as flashy as Datsyuk has been lately, and Datsyuk is carrying a line with Franzen and Holmstrom. Babcock, no doubt, switched the lines up to get Hossa and Z together to hopefully spark their offensive play and find the chemistry "sweet spot". However, Datsyuk has been one of the most offensively dominant players (right up there with 'Vech, Crosby and Malkin) since mid-December, playing without the other two best offensive players on the team (Hossa and Z) recently.

However, I also think Datsyuk's current contract in one hell of a bargain for the Wings. If Datsyuk were to be a pending UFA for this season, he would be worth in the $7-8 million range we are discussing Z might get. However, Z is a bigger bargain than Datsyuk now at $2.65 or whatever million per. It does no good to compare the salaries, becase the signings of Crosby, Malkin, Thornton, Ovechkin, even Vanek, Briere, Gomez, Drury, etc, etc, etc... have bumped up the salary spectrum from when Datsyuk signed. If anything, teh Wings are lucky they were able to lock Datsyuk in for 7 years at $6.7 mil per.

Also, Datsyuk's deal was signed before he did really anything in the playoffs, he then went on to have two dominant playoffs seasons. Z has a Conn Smythe under his belt BEFORE signing his big payday deal. Can't really compare the two from a negotiation standpoint, because, IMO, Datsyuk proved himself worthy of the deal and exceeded the worth after he signed it, as opposed to Z who has a trophy and a lot of goals and playoff success to back himself up in the negotiations.

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01-15-2009, 11:46 AM
  #125
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However, I also think Datsyuk's current contract in one hell of a bargain for the Wings. If Datsyuk were to be a pending UFA for this season, he would be worth in the $7-8 million range we are discussing Z might get. However, Z is a bigger bargain than Datsyuk now at $2.65 or whatever million per. It does no good to compare the salaries, becase the signings of Crosby, Malkin, Thornton, Ovechkin, even Vanek, Briere, Gomez, Drury, etc, etc, etc... have bumped up the salary spectrum from when Datsyuk signed. If anything, teh Wings are lucky they were able to lock Datsyuk in for 7 years at $6.7 mil per.

All of those contracts were signed when the cap was growing in leaps and bounds. That's the beauty of the cap system and linkage. If revenues stop growing, or even fall, guess what the cap and player salaries have to do? Also come down. There might be teams who have real trouble carrying those big contracts if the cap does decrease.

The Wings trust is a lot smarter than that. They don't want to be handcuffed by the system because someone signed big contracts 2 yrs ago. It isn't at all comparable. Nothing says players will get raises every year regardless of any economic consideration. They have the capped system to thank for that.

 
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