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What is your ideal 4th line?

View Poll Results: Your ideal 4th line combination
Fredrik Sjostrom - Blair Betts - Colton Orr 24 46.15%
Aaron Voros - Blair Betts - Colton Orr 1 1.92%
Dan Fritsche - Blair Betts - Colton Orr 2 3.85%
Dan Fritsche - Blair Betts - Aaron Voros 3 5.77%
Fredrik Sjostrom - Blair Betts - Dan Fritsche 13 25.00%
Fredrik Sjostrom - Blair Betts - Aaron Voros 9 17.31%
Voters: 52. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
01-16-2009, 01:09 PM
  #26
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I picked the first one without Orr - honestly, any combination of the other four is fine by me.

Interesting that it's currently 50/50 the current line/some combination that excludes Orr.

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01-16-2009, 01:21 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by BrooklynRangersFan View Post
I picked the first one without Orr - honestly, any combination of the other four is fine by me.

Interesting that it's currently 50/50 the current line/some combination that excludes Orr.
I'm sure there are people that will vote for a combination without Orr, that would choose a combination with Orr rather than one with Voros (as a second choice). If that makes sense.

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01-16-2009, 01:25 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
Dagoon...

Please stop with these baseless insults to get your point across. It doesn't make your point valid.

Also, we all know you are a proponent of the skill-less goon.


However, the fact still remains that he has no skill. He can't skate. And he rarely fights anymore.

2 fights in his last 13 games..

A team that struggles to put the puck in the net should be utilizing as much skill as possible, from top to bottom.

The Rangers won't win home ice advantage in the playoffs because Orr fights every once in a while.

They will win home ice advantage because they score more goals then their opponent as often as possible.
Orr last two fights he ended Fritz's NHL career and smacked Goddard around. You make a point that he isn't fighting enough he also isn't taking stupid penalties and has played above average in his own zone. He has been excellent with Betts and the line it's self has done it's job. Now to Neil yea he ran a few guys Renney answered and neil ran scared from Orr and was invisible the rest of the way. You can call me a goon or less skilled all you want. I don't enjoy no physical hockey and hate what people like you have turned the worlds greatest game into. The NHL was built on pride and actually hatred You had pride in the city you played for and pride in the jersey you wore. You had hatred for the teams you played against and hated their fans and city. Now players have no loyalty or guts see our heart less captain or Gomez. They loved the money and took no pride in their play here in NY. Orr does his job and it isn't a easy one and does it in a great way., You can insult me for my love of real hockey and fighting and heart and soul guys. But don;t get personal with me and i will leave it at that.

And the team can't score lol blame that on the top 9 forwards not the bottom 3

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01-16-2009, 01:40 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dagoon44 View Post
Orr last two fights he ended Fritz's NHL career and smacked Goddard around. You make a point that he isn't fighting enough he also isn't taking stupid penalties and has played above average in his own zone. He has been excellent with Betts and the line it's self has done it's job. Now to Neil yea he ran a few guys Renney answered and neil ran scared from Orr and was invisible the rest of the way. You can call me a goon or less skilled all you want. I don't enjoy no physical hockey and hate what people like you have turned the worlds greatest game into. The NHL was built on pride and actually hatred You had pride in the city you played for and pride in the jersey you wore. You had hatred for the teams you played against and hated their fans and city. Now players have no loyalty or guts see our heart less captain or Gomez. They loved the money and took no pride in their play here in NY. Orr does his job and it isn't a easy one and does it in a great way., You can insult me for my love of real hockey and fighting and heart and soul guys. But don;t get personal with me and i will leave it at that.

And the team can't score lol blame that on the top 9 forwards not the bottom 3
Agree 100% there...the top 9 forwards get 3 to 4 times more playing time and haven't done squat the whole year yet by adding Fritsche or some other player on the fourth line instead of Orr will suddenly change the way this team plays and there ability to score goals.

I wish it was that easy folks...

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01-16-2009, 01:44 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dagoon44 View Post
Orr last two fights he ended Fritz's NHL career and smacked Goddard around. You make a point that he isn't fighting enough he also isn't taking stupid penalties and has played above average in his own zone. He has been excellent with Betts and the line it's self has done it's job. Now to Neil yea he ran a few guys Renney answered and neil ran scared from Orr and was invisible the rest of the way. You can call me a goon or less skilled all you want. I don't enjoy no physical hockey and hate what people like you have turned the worlds greatest game into. The NHL was built on pride and actually hatred You had pride in the city you played for and pride in the jersey you wore. You had hatred for the teams you played against and hated their fans and city. Now players have no loyalty or guts see our heart less captain or Gomez. They loved the money and took no pride in their play here in NY. Orr does his job and it isn't a easy one and does it in a great way., You can insult me for my love of real hockey and fighting and heart and soul guys. But don;t get personal with me and i will leave it at that.

And the team can't score lol blame that on the top 9 forwards not the bottom 3
I agree about the physicality, but it just seems that the fighters from even 15 years ago were better hockey players. They could fight, but also play solid hockey. Also you saw more star players fighting, which you don't anymore. It's just what happens when money is involved.

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01-16-2009, 01:54 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Rags225 View Post
I agree about the physicality, but it just seems that the fighters from even 15 years ago were better hockey players. They could fight, but also play solid hockey. Also you saw more star players fighting, which you don't anymore. It's just what happens when money is involved.
I think the difference between now and then is the game is much faster now and in order to play, you have to keep up with the game. The game back then was much slower with all of the clutching and grabbing. I bet if Orr played 15 years ago he would have seen more minutes than today.

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01-16-2009, 02:26 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rags225 View Post
I agree about the physicality, but it just seems that the fighters from even 15 years ago were better hockey players. They could fight, but also play solid hockey. Also you saw more star players fighting, which you don't anymore. It's just what happens when money is involved.
Fantastic point back in the day guys scored 20 goals. Probert , O'Reily Schultz and tons of other guys had a regular shift and scored 30-40 points. Today's game is faster and Goalies are much better

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01-16-2009, 02:37 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Dagoon44 View Post
Fantastic point back in the day guys scored 20 goals. Probert , O'Reily Schultz and tons of other guys had a regular shift and scored 30-40 points. Today's game is faster and Goalies are much better
so true... but its also that coaches require all players to backcheck and play defense much more... it's fun though to watch the old school games where you get great action and some great fights in them.


actually now that I think of it is a big reason why we dont see this as much is because of how the league expanded. The more teams means the talent is spread out more. Guarantee if we dropped 6 teams the games would look better and you would start seeing star players sticking up for themselves more b/c you couldn't afford to have just one dimensional players anymore.

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01-16-2009, 02:38 PM
  #34
Larry Melnyk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackson Ranger View Post
Agree 100% there...the top 9 forwards get 3 to 4 times more playing time and haven't done squat the whole year yet by adding Fritsche or some other player on the fourth line instead of Orr will suddenly change the way this team plays and there ability to score goals.

I wish it was that easy folks...
Not sure anybody was saying that... This was a thread about the 4th line and what might be the best combination..And if you look at what Orr has done offensively (nothing) and what Sjostrom has done (nothing all year with twice the time), it surely can be improved..Hell, they are probably the least productive regular 4th liner wingers in the NHL...Still, they play reasonable defense and have their assets and should play--at times...

But, you are also correct that this is mainly just noise in the equation right now...The bigger problem lies with failings of the top lines (guys like Gomez, Drury, Naslund) and D-men like Redden, Kalinin...guys playing above their line level.....and the absolute stench of the PP...And wrapped within that is Renney's coaching of a team that is just .500 since November 1st..

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01-16-2009, 02:42 PM
  #35
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I dunno Dagoon and Rags...I thought that 15 years ago there were your fair share of "goons" out there - guys who played 2-3 minutes and whose knuckles scraped along the ice. Sure Probert was more than serviceable, as was even Domi, but you also had guys like Grissom, Vukota, Twist, etc. What I think you had a heck of a lot of back then are middleweights - guys like Graves, Neely, Tocchet, Primeau (young), Barnaby, Brad May, Beuk and tons others who were more than willing fighters/protectors but were also top six players or top four defensemen (OK, maybe Brad May wasn't). There were just more willing fighters and that has to do with the makeup of players in the game. Boy I loved those days. And this is the reason why enforcers do not work. If you f'd with the Rangers' top guy, be it Leetch or Mess, Beuk or Graves was on you. You mess with Craig Janney or Bourque, there was Neely. You messed with Gretzky, there was Semenko, or McSorley. Going after Lemieux? There was Tocchet, Cunneyworth or Stevens. It's so much more effective when you have guys who can play 20 minutes per night and be on the ice with those in need of protection. The enforcer coming out for 4-5 minutes for a stare-down shift, or a fight against the other team's enforcer who was not the trouble maker, just is not effective in my opinion.

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01-16-2009, 02:44 PM
  #36
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Jackson...

it may not be the only solution out there, but if it adds 4-5 goals per year, which could result in 1-2 additional games being won, isn't it worth it? Sure, you can only ask of so much from your fourth line, but just because you expect so much from the other three lines doesn't mean you don't also have expectations for the fourth line and if they're below expectations, but playing well and the other lines are further below expectations, you just don't decide to do nothing because there are bigger problems.

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01-16-2009, 02:50 PM
  #37
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Unless you're playing against a team with a real heavy weight fighter, there is no need to play Orr on a regular basis. I'd much rather see Voros in there and on games against teams like a Brashear-less Washington, who doesn't have a physical presence at all, play Fritsche for some added offense. But that's not the Renney way. He'd much rather keep the same guys fighting over a single spot. It wasn't until recently when Dawes was forcing Renney to keep him in the lineup and an obviously struggling Voros was there an opportunity to play two of Prucha, Dawes, and Fritshce. Both Prucha and Dawes are now forcing Renney to keep them in the lineup.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
I dunno Dagoon and Rags...I thought that 15 years ago there were your fair share of "goons" out there - guys who played 2-3 minutes and whose knuckles scraped along the ice. Sure Probert was more than serviceable, as was even Domi, but you also had guys like Grissom, Vukota, Twist, etc.....
Ahhh Tony Twist, he couldn't have picked a better stage name for his job than what he was given at birth. You'd have to wonder if his parents could see the future.

Beukeboom comes pretty close too for a big physical defender.

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01-16-2009, 03:00 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
I dunno Dagoon and Rags...I thought that 15 years ago there were your fair share of "goons" out there - guys who played 2-3 minutes and whose knuckles scraped along the ice. Sure Probert was more than serviceable, as was even Domi, but you also had guys like Grissom, Vukota, Twist, etc. What I think you had a heck of a lot of back then are middleweights - guys like Graves, Neely, Tocchet, Primeau (young), Barnaby, Brad May, Beuk and tons others who were more than willing fighters/protectors but were also top six players or top four defensemen (OK, maybe Brad May wasn't). There were just more willing fighters and that has to do with the makeup of players in the game. Boy I loved those days. And this is the reason why enforcers do not work. If you f'd with the Rangers' top guy, be it Leetch or Mess, Beuk or Graves was on you. You mess with Craig Janney or Bourque, there was Neely. You messed with Gretzky, there was Semenko, or McSorley. Going after Lemieux? There was Tocchet, Cunneyworth or Stevens. It's so much more effective when you have guys who can play 20 minutes per night and be on the ice with those in need of protection. The enforcer coming out for 4-5 minutes for a stare-down shift, or a fight against the other team's enforcer who was not the trouble maker, just is not effective in my opinion.
you are right. it was just alot of middleweights. alot of players were willing to throw down back then. But I wish the game was still played like that. I don't like enforcers who just skate under 5 min and don't do a whole lot, but I loved those middlweight players. There isn't alot of those type of players left in the league and its a shame.

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01-16-2009, 03:20 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
it may not be the only solution out there, but if it adds 4-5 goals per year, which could result in 1-2 additional games being won, isn't it worth it? Sure, you can only ask of so much from your fourth line, but just because you expect so much from the other three lines doesn't mean you don't also have expectations for the fourth line and if they're below expectations, but playing well and the other lines are further below expectations, you just don't decide to do nothing because there are bigger problems.
I do have expectations from the fourth line and that is for them to not get scored on; to not take dumb penalties; and do there support jobs (PK and Fighter). I think the fourth line has done their job better than the top three lines. This team needs scoring, from everyone, and the first fingers to be pointed should be at the skilled and talented players not your fourth line players.

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01-16-2009, 03:55 PM
  #40
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Don't fix what isn't broken.

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01-16-2009, 04:32 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackson Ranger View Post
I do have expectations from the fourth line and that is for them to not get scored on; to not take dumb penalties; and do there support jobs (PK and Fighter). I think the fourth line has done their job better than the top three lines. This team needs scoring, from everyone, and the first fingers to be pointed should be at the skilled and talented players not your fourth line players.
Nobody is questioning where the fingers should be pointed first..but they also should be pointed at a guy like Sjostrom...who is as impotent as they come at ES..and at Renny for using a slug like Orr against every opponent..

And I think those are pretty low expectations and settles for mediocraty..Which is what the Rangers have been striving for since the worhtless deadline trades for sjostrom and Baackman last year..and the horrible FA signings of the past off season..And you get what you play for...There are other fourth lines arround the league that provide some defense and the physical component but also can score the odd goal or two, unlike the Ranger 4th line wingers..

On some nights, the line of SJostrom-Betts-Orr could be a good solution.. on other nights you need to try for some more..

Oh yeah, I'm sure Orr and Frederick the Great will be responsible for two goals tonight after saying all this!

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01-16-2009, 04:33 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Celestial Black View Post
Don't fix what isn't broken.
The team is barely playing .500 hockey since November 1 and the 4th lines absolute lack of offense doesn't help one bit..The team needs improvement everywhere..

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01-16-2009, 06:59 PM
  #43
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The team is barely playing .500 hockey since November 1 and the 4th lines absolute lack of offense doesn't help one bit..The team needs improvement everywhere..
That's not the fault of their 4th line who wasn't expected to do anything except provide a consistent checking/pressure line. If anything they or achieving more than most would have thought. The problem is the fact that major players are simply not showing up like they should/were expected too. I'm more worried about working out the problems with our top 3 lines and not our 4th.

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01-16-2009, 07:00 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by HockeyBasedNYC View Post
The current fourth line has done nothing wrong really so i would leave it the same, but as Fletch pointed out, and we've talked about this before- i would like to see Fritsche or Voros sprinkled in there for Orr, because its not necessary for him to be in every single game.
Agreed.

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01-16-2009, 07:49 PM
  #45
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That's not the fault of their 4th line who wasn't expected to do anything except provide a consistent checking/pressure line. If anything they or achieving more than most would have thought. The problem is the fact that major players are simply not showing up like they should/were expected too. I'm more worried about working out the problems with our top 3 lines and not our 4th.
If you expect nothing and accept nothing...you get nothing...and that's what they get offensively out of those bozo wingers...All summer long Renney talked about getting offense from all four lines....and all year we have gotten crap from SJostrom and Orr...Yet they play no matter what...Look, they have earned their place on the team with their very limited roles and some decen bit not great defense, they justdon't belong out there every night..

And again, nobody is arguing that we have to straigthen out the top 3 lines..I just thought this thread was about the 4th line which has some strengths at times and some majore weaknesses most of the time, even when compared to other 4th lines...

Hell, BEN EAGER has more goals then out 4th line COMBINED!!!! Don't know how people can be satisfied with 14 points all year from these guys even if they play decent defense..I they threw in some offense, they would be fine

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01-16-2009, 08:10 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Melnyk View Post
If you expect nothing and accept nothing...you get nothing...and that's what they get offensively out of those bozo wingers...All summer long Renney talked about getting offense from all four lines....and all year we have gotten crap from SJostrom and Orr...Yet they play no matter what...Look, they have earned their place on the team with their very limited roles and some decen bit not great defense, they justdon't belong out there every night..

And again, nobody is arguing that we have to straigthen out the top 3 lines..I just thought this thread was about the 4th line which has some strengths at times and some majore weaknesses most of the time, even when compared to other 4th lines...

Hell, BEN EAGER has more goals then out 4th line COMBINED!!!! Don't know how people can be satisfied with 14 points all year from these guys even if they play decent defense..I they threw in some offense, they would be fine
Eager is a third line player and a former first round pick! If you're going to compare Orr to anyone, compare him to Peters, Riley Cote and the Godard's of the NHL. And IMO he's much better than those guys.

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01-16-2009, 08:21 PM
  #47
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Jackson...

I understand those expectations - so you have expectations for them to score zero goals and anything beyond that is gravy? They play 6-8 minutes per night. They do need to score goals. They do need to do a host of other things. Again, if you mixed up the bunch of guys and don't keep a constant group of three and it ends up the Rangers score a net 4-5 goals more, isn't that a good thing, or do you just ignore that and say there are other problems the fourth line doesn't need to be improved, even if you think it can be augmented?

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01-16-2009, 08:25 PM
  #48
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if it ain't broke, don't fix it? I agreed with this philosophy a while ago. Now, I can't stand the expression. In other words, if you believe you can improve something, do not do it because it's doing just fine right now. I will always err on the side of making things better. Always. I will break up good things every time if I think there's a solution that can be better.

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01-16-2009, 08:33 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
I understand those expectations - so you have expectations for them to score zero goals and anything beyond that is gravy? They play 6-8 minutes per night. They do need to score goals. They do need to do a host of other things. Again, if you mixed up the bunch of guys and don't keep a constant group of three and it ends up the Rangers score a net 4-5 goals more, isn't that a good thing, or do you just ignore that and say there are other problems the fourth line doesn't need to be improved, even if you think it can be augmented?
Three things Fletch. First, never, ever use the word augmented on a Friday night!

Second, I'm arguing Larry's comment that Orr and Sjo or bozos because he's comparing them to a third line player. If you look at the numbers of Cote, Godard and Peters, Orr has more points than each of them.

Third, I agree, it would be beneficial to have a fourth line that can score. But tell me how many teams are out there that have "high scoring" fourth lines? I'll give you Detroit, the Devils...who else? I think it's exception, not the norm.

I just think people are trying to repair a car with a bad transmission by changing a windshield wiper.

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01-16-2009, 08:35 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dagoon44 View Post
Orr last two fights he ended Fritz's NHL career and smacked Goddard around. You make a point that he isn't fighting enough he also isn't taking stupid penalties and has played above average in his own zone. He has been excellent with Betts and the line it's self has done it's job. Now to Neil yea he ran a few guys Renney answered and neil ran scared from Orr and was invisible the rest of the way. You can call me a goon or less skilled all you want. I don't enjoy no physical hockey and hate what people like you have turned the worlds greatest game into. The NHL was built on pride and actually hatred You had pride in the city you played for and pride in the jersey you wore. You had hatred for the teams you played against and hated their fans and city. Now players have no loyalty or guts see our heart less captain or Gomez. They loved the money and took no pride in their play here in NY. Orr does his job and it isn't a easy one and does it in a great way., You can insult me for my love of real hockey and fighting and heart and soul guys. But don;t get personal with me and i will leave it at that.

And the team can't score lol blame that on the top 9 forwards not the bottom 3
People like me?

If one can't play hockey, one should not play hockey. Plain and simple. Did i ever say, i dislike physical games? No, no i did not.

Ovechkin is the best player in the world. The best goal scorer in the league. And is physical.

The plain and simple fact is guys like Orr have no business being in the NHL. He can't skate, and he can't play. I could care less what argument you TRY to make him out to be a half way decent player, because he is not.

It is not something I did. That is the game. If you don't like it, don't watch it. It is a game based on skill and speed. Not fighting.

If you think guys ending other people's careers if fun to watch, try watching a replay of Don Sanderson's fight. That has honor and respect? That has pride? Please.

There is a difference between players who can play the game and give good CLEAN hits, and guys who have no skill and can't skate, but can punch a face real hard.

And "real hockey"... is a subjective phrase. Hockey is a sport that changes generation to generation.

"Real hockey" used to not allow you to pass the puck backward...



One more thing... there is also a big difference between playing physical and being stupid on the ice.

Playing physical is hitting someone to take them off the puck, take them out of the play so your team can gain the puck.

Playing within the rules, which are in place for players' health, is fine.

A fight due to heat of the moment is fine.

However, checks from behind, hits to the head, slew footing, stepping on people, deliberate slashes and acts with intent to injure is crap.

Two coaches putting out heavyweights on the opening face off for a planned fight is crap. It is WWF scripted b.s.

Two guys getting frustrated and getting into a scrap, naturally, is fine, as long as they don't get stupid.


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