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Old
01-18-2009, 06:33 PM
  #51
flappuck
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Anyone can tell me which 3rd pair of defense was so much better than Brisebois/Bouillon for the last 5 or 6 teams that won the cup?

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01-18-2009, 06:40 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Tout ptit View Post
Anyone can tell me which 3rd pair of defense was so much better than Brisebois/Bouillon for the last 5 or 6 teams that won the cup?
I'd take Lebda and Lilja over Brisebois and Bouillon They also had Chelios hurt and the aforementioned Quincy scratched.

So Chelios and Quincy > Brisebois and Bouillon.

And really I'm only whining about Brisebois. He needs a break, Bouillon is fine.

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01-18-2009, 06:44 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Mike8 View Post
So when is it okay to criticize Montreal? You chastise people for criticizing the team after a loss, asking where are their criticisms after wins. Then during winning streaks, you imply that the team is above criticism.
It's one thing to criticize.

It's another thing when people do not change their criticisms, regardless of the score.

People still claim Latendresse is too slow and that Brisebois is this huge problem. Latendresse has had quite a few breakaways this season and more than holds his own on the ice, while Breezer has been solid for us as a third string D-man. Despite this, people continue to drill on about these.

Andrei Kostitsyn has been on fire and Sergei has been chipping in as well, but I'm still not happy with their defensive play. That despite Montreal winning and both being very productive. It's an honest assessment. In the end though, if we're winning, then oh well.

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01-18-2009, 06:50 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Mike8 View Post
So when is it okay to criticize Montreal? You chastise people for criticizing the team after a loss, asking where are their criticisms after wins. Then during winning streaks, you imply that the team is above criticism.
I wasn't implying the team is above criticism.

But I was pointing out how foolish it seems to criticize these guys when the team is piling up victories in spite of a slew of injuries that has sidelined the likes of Saku Koivu, Alex Tanguay, Carey Price and Chris Higgins.

The original poster seems flabbergasted that the team is winning with these two "jokes" in the lineup. Not only is the team winning with them in the lineup, the team is thriving with them in the lineup. And with a litany of key players *not* in the lineup.

Do you think, maybe, it's because those two guys are helping the team achieve this success? Anyone who's watching the games can see that Brisebois is making a pretty solid first pass consistently that gets this team using it's speed. He's also working the point on the powerplay, which is now starting to enjoy a little success for the first time all season. As far as I'm concerned, any poster who's unable to pick that up while watching the games, really doesn't know too much about hockey.

Any fool can watch a hockey game and see the errors. But you need to know a lot more about the game to see a lot of other things that are important to a team success that doesn't translate on the stat sheet. Brisebois outlet passes and risk taking is a part of what makes this teams offense works.

Another good example from the past few years is Niklas Sundstrom. He got a ton of hate on the message boards during his time in Montreal. They would constantly bash him for what he wasn't - a scoring winger - and totally missed what he was, an excellent defensive forward that played the game on a technical level as well as anyone on the team. In terms of discipline and executing the teams game plan, this guy was incredibly solid. It just got totally missed by the bozos on the message boards. What was especially funny were the posts calling for his benching and wondering aloud what it is that the coaching staff sees in him. Calling him a favorite, etc.

Now that I think of it, all of that could be said right now, about Brisebois.

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Old
01-18-2009, 06:51 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by FerrisRox View Post
You're talking to a bunch of people that have no clue what system the Habs are playing and how important Brisebois first pass is to initiating the attack.

Brisebois has exceeded my expectations this season in a big way, and his passing is a huge part of it.
You must have low expectations if Breezer can surpass them in such a big way. Nobody is disputing his value on the PP and his passing ability. It is his defensive capabilities that are alarming.

I have "no clue" what the system is because I have yet to see a system implemented and executed by the team on a game per game basis. We play differently based on what opponent we are facing. So I have to ask you to enlighten us on what system the Habs play exactly and why Breezer's outlet pass is critical to that system. Also, if he is fulfilling that critical function why is it universally felt that we need a puck moving D-man over Vinny?

I never liked Breezer but as a 7th D I was fine with signing him. The only reason he is playing is because O'Byrne failed to progress so people need to understand his position in the pecking order and in the big picture. Once Bob gets a D for a deep playoff run he will be the odd man out, the 7th D-man and Bouillon will be 6th.

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Old
01-18-2009, 06:56 PM
  #56
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Yeah, while I've been anti-Brisebois in this thread, it's more as an everyday player. He's very effective when rested, but at this age, I find that he's good for a couple games and then returns to his "Breezer" tendencies when we play too many too fast. We should be using him like a goalie, basically, in terms of playing time.

In the short term, I'd bring up someone from Hamilton they're comfortable dressing for 12 minutes a night. Henry or Belle, perhaps? And play them about as often as Halak would play when Price is healthy.

We'll have a better defense for it.

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Old
01-18-2009, 07:08 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by FerrisRox View Post
I wasn't implying the team is above criticism.

But I was pointing out how foolish it seems to criticize these guys when the team is piling up victories in spite of a slew of injuries that has sidelined the likes of Saku Koivu, Alex Tanguay, Carey Price and Chris Higgins.

The original poster seems flabbergasted that the team is winning with these two "jokes" in the lineup. Not only is the team winning with them in the lineup, the team is thriving with them in the lineup. And with a litany of key players *not* in the lineup.

Do you think, maybe, it's because those two guys are helping the team achieve this success? Anyone who's watching the games can see that Brisebois is making a pretty solid first pass consistently that gets this team using it's speed. He's also working the point on the powerplay, which is now starting to enjoy a little success for the first time all season. As far as I'm concerned, any poster who's unable to pick that up while watching the games, really doesn't know too much about hockey.

Any fool can watch a hockey game and see the errors. But you need to know a lot more about the game to see a lot of other things that are important to a team success that doesn't translate on the stat sheet. Brisebois outlet passes and risk taking is a part of what makes this teams offense works.

Another good example from the past few years is Niklas Sundstrom. He got a ton of hate on the message boards during his time in Montreal. They would constantly bash him for what he wasn't - a scoring winger - and totally missed what he was, an excellent defensive forward that played the game on a technical level as well as anyone on the team. In terms of discipline and executing the teams game plan, this guy was incredibly solid. It just got totally missed by the bozos on the message boards. What was especially funny were the posts calling for his benching and wondering aloud what it is that the coaching staff sees in him. Calling him a favorite, etc.

Now that I think of it, all of that could be said right now, about Brisebois.
See, that's what I would have liked to see instead of your original post. That's all.

For what it's worth, I do agree with your comments entirely. I also enjoyed Sundstrom, though while I was a supporter of his for the duration of his time in Montreal, I don't miss the missing ingredients from his game (say, his perimeter play and lack of physical game). I like defensive players to be a little more assertive. Alfredsson and Pahlsson are other Swedes who are not physically imposing, who also use their smarts to control games defensively, but are hard to play against (physically). Not that they're especially aggressive, but they make you work for every inch of ice and come right at you. Sundstrom wouldn't do that. He'd poke and prod, but not assert himself.

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Old
01-18-2009, 07:21 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Price and Halak are there to make saves, if they didn't bail out their D then they wouldn't be good goalies. He also has 106blocked shots(team leading), so he helps our his Goalies a bunch as well.
The goaltenders do bail out a lot of players, for sure, but you'd expect a vet like Hamrlik to make the smart play more often, at least, I do. He's no better than the young kids making the defensive play, that worries me this year.

Quote:
Right now, he's playing as a 3rd D.
Markov has more turnovers than Hamrlik, but the both of them lead the team in terms of takeovers.
Well, Markov is also paid to put up points which he does well. You lose a little on the defensive side when you're being paid to produce, which is why he's with Komisarek.

No Dman can be perfect, they all have their flaws and make their mistakes, but he's done a pretty decent job this season and without any of our top 3, we look lost. Is that overpayment?..not sure.
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Is Kovalev overpaid??..Lang??..A.Kost?..Tanguay??..
Certainly you could make a point for a lot of players, most I would agree are overpaid.

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Hamrlik is crucial to our team because he brings stability in our top 3. That's important to us, and we're 6th in terms of GA, so our D can't be that bad.
We'll see in the playoffs this year.

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Originally Posted by BLONG7 View Post
True, but we need to overpay to entice UFA's to come here and play...at least we did at that time...this summer could be a different story.
I suppose you have a point, and I can agree with you on this.

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Old
01-18-2009, 07:21 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Mike8 View Post
See, that's what I would have liked to see instead of your original post. That's all.

For what it's worth, I do agree with your comments entirely. I also enjoyed Sundstrom, though while I was a supporter of his for the duration of his time in Montreal, I don't miss the missing ingredients from his game (say, his perimeter play and lack of physical game). I like defensive players to be a little more assertive. Alfredsson and Pahlsson are other Swedes who are not physically imposing, who also use their smarts to control games defensively, but are hard to play against (physically). Not that they're especially aggressive, but they make you work for every inch of ice and come right at you. Sundstrom wouldn't do that. He'd poke and prod, but not assert himself.
Definitely true about Sunstrom's inability to add sand paper to his game. The interesting thing was, if a game was very chippy or rough, he didn't wilt away. He didn't ever play scared, nor did he ever not make a play if it meant taking a hit. But he certainly never initiated and it didn't seem to be part of the game he had any interest in. But man was he smart and he was incredibly calm and patient. When he got the puck, he always made smart decisions (though not creative ones, particularily.)

I loved him as a depth forward, he was smart, safe and made excellent passes. He didn't have excellent vision, but man could he pass. I never saw the guy make a bad pass! Never in the skates, never behind a guy, never a lead pass that was too far and never set a teammate up to get smoked. His passing was so good, it was frustrating that he wasn't a creative offensive player.

Ah well, enough with this thread hi-jacking.

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Old
01-18-2009, 07:24 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Lucius View Post
I'd take Lebda and Lilja over Brisebois and Bouillon They also had Chelios hurt and the aforementioned Quincy scratched.

So Chelios and Quincy > Brisebois and Bouillon.

And really I'm only whining about Brisebois. He needs a break, Bouillon is fine.
Lebda and Lilja aren't that much better than our 3rd pair.
Lebda and Lilja are combined for 20 points and +12 while our guys are 20 points and +7.
Not that different and Montreal is arguably a less talented team.

Who was on the 3rd pair for Anaheim? Carolina? Tampa Bay?

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Old
01-18-2009, 07:27 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Habs View Post
The goaltenders do bail out a lot of players, for sure, but you'd expect a vet like Hamrlik to make the smart play more often, at least, I do. He's no better than the young kids making the defensive play, that worries me this year.
Well, Markov is also paid to put up points which he does well. You lose a little on the defensive side when you're being paid to produce, which is why he's with Komisarek.
No Dman can be perfect, they all have their flaws and make their mistakes, but he's done a pretty decent job this season and without any of our top 3, we look lost. Is that overpayment?..not sure.
Certainly you could make a point for a lot of players, most I would agree are overpaid.
We'll see in the playoffs this year.
I suppose you have a point, and I can agree with you on this.
He's the leader in shot blocked, what can you add about it, clueless Hammer hater?

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Old
01-18-2009, 07:38 PM
  #62
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Breezer makes me shiver a few times a game, but I do like the Cube. Decent player with outstanding attitude.

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01-18-2009, 07:39 PM
  #63
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Discussing how these 2 guys are used, whether they're serviceable in their limited roles is fine, but when the post starts with ' these 2 jokes, I immediately think the op is brain dead and don't give the topic the consideration that any discussion merits.

I think the team has to improve by 1 on D. I think it's been widely covered, Schneider's name is out there, soon you'll start to hear Havelid's, there are a lot of them. I think Brisebois' play overall has been a nice story, but you can't keep sending him out game after game and expect it to work out. Considering Komo's imjury, O'b's meltdown, the team has been lucky to have him.

Frankly, if you swapped Jason Smith with PB, I don't think we'd be better off.

I'm just not sure what type of d man you really want at this point. Decent all around player like Havelid, offensive like Scneider, tough like Witt, Kaberle ?

btw, Gorges lost Neill in the corner on the Fisher goal last night and A.Kost. chased the puck and ended up covering air, hard to blame that one on the bottom pairing, but weak coverage.

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01-18-2009, 07:41 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Gil128 View Post
Tell me how do the Habs continue to win with these 2 jokes in the lineup, especially when they are paired together, it is downright scary, it would be amazing to get a steady defence defencement back there to take bouillon's place, still obvious need of a powerplay specialist back there(not kaberle) to replace brisbois
Disgusting comments. How about becoming a fan of another team?

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01-18-2009, 07:53 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tout ptit View Post
Lebda and Lilja aren't that much better than our 3rd pair.
Lebda and Lilja are combined for 20 points and +12 while our guys are 20 points and +7.
Not that different and Montreal is arguably a less talented team.

Who was on the 3rd pair for Anaheim? Carolina? Tampa Bay?
Keep in mind that Montreal has much better goaltending than Detroit.
Which saved Brisebois and Bouillon at times.

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01-18-2009, 07:58 PM
  #66
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Scapegoats again...

They're fine with what we expect from them... I'd like an upgrade, but both are way way way way way better than O'Byrne...

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01-18-2009, 08:03 PM
  #67
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He's the leader in shot blocked, what can you add about it, clueless Hammer hater?
I believe I did, you even quoted my elaboration, which makes you look like a floating turd.

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01-18-2009, 08:04 PM
  #68
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All in all i think that Brisebois has exceeded my expectations for him this year. I think he's having a better regular season than he did last year.

That said, his play lately, given the increased responsibilities, has deteriorated. During the last half dozen games he's been good for at least 2 or 3 huge blunders per game. Carbonneau needs to find a way to give him some rests.

Obviously the solution is to make a trade. However with the Lecavalier thing still up in the air i dont see the Habs making a move anytime soon.

Personally i would consider calling up Henry. He's a guy that i would rotate into the bottom pairing every once in awhile, especially against more physical teams. He is versatile enough to be used on wing on the 4th line if we get desperate.

The best thing about Henry is that i would have no problem seeing him sit for 5-6 straight games. When a prospect like Weber or O'Byrne sits, thats ice time they are never going to get back. But Henry is what he is and is never going to get better...but as a stay at home, physical defenceman i think we could do worse.

That said, if this team really wants to make a run, they need to add a very good top 4. Schneider is ok...but we need to think bigger. If the Lecavalier thing isnt going to happen...i say Bob should make a big run at Bouwmeester, Kaberle and to a slightly lesser extent Kubina. Thats 3 guys that could have a real nice impact on this team.

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01-18-2009, 08:49 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by mariolemieux66 View Post
Keep in mind that Montreal has much better goaltending than Detroit.
Which saved Brisebois and Bouillon at times.
Now you're really pushing it too far man.
And no, we don't have much better goaltending.

Take these two guys for what they are, 3rd string defensemen and they're doing a very good job for what they're asked to do.

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01-18-2009, 09:25 PM
  #70
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those guys would take a bullet for the CH.

have some respect for homegrown kids who wear their CH with pride.

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01-18-2009, 09:55 PM
  #71
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3 days without a game = 2-3 Brisebois bashing threads on Hfboards

Some things never change.

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01-18-2009, 10:01 PM
  #72
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Cube s perfectly fine. He hits a bit less than previous years, and doesnt look as good as when he was paired with Gorges, but he s doing a fine job imo for a 5th D. Playing with Brisebois ist exactly the best way to make you look good either.

Patrice has been playin well, actually better than pretty much any other 7TH D in this league !!! just a little too much recently, (Obyrne+Dandy out) but hey, is it his fault that he plays when Carbo asks him to? If the management doesnt want to play Weber instead dont blame Patrice for that.
He s tired now and it shows, Imo he s at his best when he plays like 2-3 games and takes a break for the next one. When he s not fresh thats when he does those stupid mistakes (lazy interference penalty, or doesnt play physical at all) I d even say, imo again, that those mental mistakes he makes, well it s to be expected if he s tired....

Btw, apparently Dandenault was skating apparently ? I wouldnt be surprised to see him back after the all star....

Last thing, I m just tired of those supposed fans that bash every players they dont like, I dont call these people Habs fans, well at least not real ones like most on this website.

Unfortunately it s always the one that yells the louder that you re gonna hear, not necessarly the one that s right.

To those poeple : you re supposed to wish them well and not insult them even if they take the place of your favourite prospect.

/rant off


Last edited by Sthabs: 01-18-2009 at 10:48 PM.
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Old
01-18-2009, 10:12 PM
  #73
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i love Bouillon and Brisebois this season what are you talking about... they should be 6th and 7th defensemen in this team respectively but to complain about them being brutal is just ridiculous

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01-18-2009, 10:38 PM
  #74
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I somewhat agree with this thread. Ideally, both of Brisebois and bouillon would be spares for the playoffs. They havent been bad but if theres an upgrade to be made on D, this is it. If BG can land a top 4 D at the trade deadline i would have both of them sitting and Dandy as our 6th D solely because of his speed, puck moving ability and Stanley cup experience. Gorges goes back as our 5th D and suddenly we have quality depth on D.

I know a lot of people love Bouillon here but hes not «vital» to this team and Brisebois shouldnt be a regular. If we get that top 4 D, our defense should look like this for the playoffs:

Markov-Komi
Hammer-(trade)
Gorges-Dandy

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Old
01-18-2009, 10:52 PM
  #75
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I'm I the only here who finds that Bouillon is actually a reliable dmen with limited offensive ability

I know he won't score often but still he doesn't giveaway the puck much often

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