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Nhl Cba Talks End After 4 Hours

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Old
08-04-2004, 09:42 PM
  #26
Vlad The Impaler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DementedReality
i see you have not really given the topic much thought, just regurgitate falsehoods.
Actually, while I didn't agree with the whole post, it was far from containing just the same falsehoods.

Some teams are indeed on shaky ground and could move.

Some players indeed look like they are not putting through an effort.

And ticket price rising IS a fact. Tickets not being as affordable for faamilies as they once were is a new reality. There was a time not too long ago where a working man with a family to support and lots of bills to pay could afford to go to games. Today, tickets are a problem even for people with comparatively a higher lifestyle and no family to support. I've witnessed it all and it is not a myth. It also conicides with the rise of the money-grubbing, honorless NHLPA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DementedReality
Secondly, the current system allows the owners to pay the players exactly what they choose. Why throw the baby out with the bath water ?
The simplest answer to that would be: because it doesn't work. A fact the players and their association know very well. Or they wouldn't have proposed a 5% paycut across the board for all their members if theydidn't acknowledge that right now, fans and teams are taking it up the butt.

They know it, the owners know it, everybody knows it.

Or do you think they proposed the 5% paycut because they thought the current deal was working out for everybody?

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08-04-2004, 11:41 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler
Or do you think they proposed the 5% paycut because they thought the current deal was working out for everybody?
i believe the players are trying to find compromise. the players claim this CBA can work and to help the owners get better use of it, they are offering to set back salaries 5%.

not only that they made other concessions, all designed to help give back the owners some ground, while maintaining a cap free system.

as a fan, i blame the owners for killing hockey. as a fan, i am not looking forward to an NHL with a cap. Say goodbye to teams like OTT, VAN, TBY, and CGY. they wont be allowed to even keep the players they want to, never mind losing key RFA who are now UFA because the owners gave up 30 year old UFA.

RIP - this is on the owners.

dr

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Old
08-05-2004, 05:01 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler
Some teams are indeed on shaky ground and could move.
My wondering is that we always put the franchise problem due to salaries when to me it's more of an owner competancy & the market. I'm ok with a franchise in Nashville & Kansas City but it takes time to get a fan base, let them grow & I think it's normal to loss some money for the first 5 years because you're trying to put a good foundation in that market.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler
Some players indeed look like they are not putting through an effort.
Do you think it's their job to put an effort in this CBA ? (or were you talking about the effort on ICE ?). I think the NHLPA does not need to compromise that much when we actually see that the GM's are helping the NHLPA with their tough handing with the players contract. The recent 3-year contract to Richard Zednik prove that the gm's is NOW doing their homework (they are 10 years too late but better now than never). I really thought I would have seen another ''Brian Savage 3,5M$'' type of contract with Zednik & it didn't happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler
And ticket price rising IS a fact. Tickets not being as affordable for faamilies as they once were is a new reality. There was a time not too long ago where a working man with a family to support and lots of bills to pay could afford to go to games. Today, tickets are a problem even for people with comparatively a higher lifestyle and no family to support. I've witnessed it all and it is not a myth. It also conicides with the rise of the money-grubbing, honorless NHLPA.
Ticket price is not only a players salaries factor even though I understand very much why people think like this. BUT that said, I don't believe tickets price will go down where the demands is very high like Montreal, Toronto, Detroit, Colorado & many many more. I really like what the Buffalo Sabres did with giving price with which team they are playing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler
The simplest answer to that would be: because it doesn't work. A fact the players and their association know very well. Or they wouldn't have proposed a 5% paycut across the board for all their members if theydidn't acknowledge that right now, fans and teams are taking it up the butt.
I'm with demented reality here but whatever the NHLPA will do, the average Joe fan will perceive it as wrong.

If they compromise like they did it recently, it's probably because they know somethings wrong & if they don't compromise they are greedy & selfish.

I really believe they know (players) that somethings need to be done but like the owners want it's not only a salary cap that will help the league. GM's need to do their homework & the players have a right to be keep some grounds they fought the last 20 years when the owner were in full control.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler
They know it, the owners know it, everybody knows it.

Or do you think they proposed the 5% paycut because they thought the current deal was working out for everybody?
I'm pretty sure the 5% paycut was a 1st offer, I would have a HARD TIME believing it was take it or do a lockout kind of offer because that offer was done very far from the deadline. I think the NHL with a 10% paycut is more than 100M$ overall in saving that's not bad from a NHL point of view when they claim losing 273M$ (probably less than that in reality). A rookie cap with strict bonus level & a luxury tax @ 50-55M$ would do very good without having a lockout.


In conclusion, I don't believe anymore the hockey season stand on a salary or luxury cap but on how Bettman will play his reputation on the line. If it's a power game, I hope the owner will do their job & getting in the CBA work because it could get ugly.

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Old
08-05-2004, 05:14 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DementedReality
i see you have not really given the topic much thought, just regurgitate falsehoods. Why would ticket prices come down ? Secondly, the current system allows the owners to pay the players exactly what they choose. Why throw the baby out with the bath water ?
When did I say the ticket prices would come down? I just said they're too high. If we're lucky they'll stop going up.

I've given the topic plenty of thought - people in the NHL make too much money, fans have problems with the pro hockey and the league is going bankrupt. It's not a working system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kill 'Em All
"the already rich people" that are "running pro hockey into the ground" are the owners, not the players.

the owners are the ones that agreed to paying the insane contracts in the 1st place... $9 mil for holik, $6 mil for lapointe...

1. players don't make money "on the backs of the fans." at least not on those that don't participate. if you don't agree with how much the players make, than stop supporting the nhl.
When did I blame the players? No, really, do me a favour and point out where I said NHL players are greedy. All I said is they make too much money.

Is this the fault of the owners? Absolutely. If someone offered me too much money to do a job, and it was honest, of course I would take it. Anyone would. Regardless it is a system that needs fixing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kill 'Em All
2. ticket prices won't change with a new cba. why would the owners fight for a new cba, and than cut down on their revenues?
Again, when did I say prices would come down? I didn't. I simply said they're too high. If the NHL is fixed perhaps they won't shoot up again for a while.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kill 'Em All
3. the reason why hockey is on such shaky ground, is because they've expanded to too many places where hockey just doesn't have a place, and/or a strong fanbase (it's why those teams are't making any money, either). imo, the best thing that could happen to hockey would be contraction.
I'm confused. You think the NHL would contract before lowering ticket prices?

I'm not even sure why you would want to believe that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kill 'Em All
oh, because regular folks don't breeze thru their jobs, sometimes. give me a break.
I'm not saying we should police everyone and make them feel guilty for the money they make, but when people are being paid to play sports, and paid so much that the league ceases to function properly, they are probably being paid too much.

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Old
08-05-2004, 05:30 PM
  #30
Vlad The Impaler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DementedReality
as a fan, i am not looking forward to an NHL with a cap. Say goodbye to teams like OTT, VAN, TBY, and CGY. they wont be allowed to even keep the players they want to, never mind losing key RFA who are now UFA because the owners gave up 30 year old UFA.
Just for the record, I don't think a salary cap is the be all, end all of fiscal sanity in pro sports. There are various ways to improve things with or without a cap. So I'm not hardcore in favor of a cap.

And a cap can take different forms anyway. We can't be sure it's the end of OTT, VAN. etc. without knowing what form it takes.

I'm open to anything, not just to a cap.

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Old
08-05-2004, 05:33 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Russian Fan
Do you think it's their job to put an effort in this CBA ?
Now that you mention it, yes. It's the job of everybody involved in this industry, IMO. Just like in any other industry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russian Fan
(or were you talking about the effort on ICE ?).
Yes, that's what I was talking about.

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Old
08-05-2004, 05:58 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by benji_ch
"Both sides agreed to meet again August 17. And why not? It's not like there's a rush on this issue."
If they agree on that day, that'd be one hell of a birthday present for me.

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Old
08-05-2004, 09:28 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prince Mercury
....when people are being paid to play sports, and paid so much that the league ceases to function properly, they are probably being paid too much.
of course they are paid too much. however, this CBA gives the owners all the power they need to lower salaries and have cost certainty.

at least enough that they dont have to kill the league over it. they can take the players offer of 5% cut, heck, ask for 12% cut and the strict rookie salarie concessions and then start using the CBA. this is why i am so anti owner in this, they can find another way to reach their goals without killing hockey.

like another poster said, this is more about Bettmans ego. he even said the other day that the players only want status quo. this is an outright lie, they have been willing to negotiate many many scenarios to help the owners, the owners thought want one solution and one solution only.

dr

ps ..
damn those big markets in CGY and PHX for all those UFA signings. I mean, did you see how CGY robbed NYR of Chris Simon at the deadline and then had the resources to resign him !

dr

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Old
08-05-2004, 10:03 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DementedReality
i see you have not really given the topic much thought, just regurgitate falsehoods. Why would ticket prices come down ? Secondly, the current system allows the owners to pay the players exactly what they choose. Why throw the baby out with the bath water ?
dr
Here are some numbers for you about what the current system has to offer and both of these audits paint a very clear picture to me that some dratstic changes are needed if the league is going to survive:

http://www.andrewsstarspage.com/8-1-04cba.htm

Ticket prices are already coming down. Here is statement made by Bill Daily about ticket prices:

"As a point of information, 25 of our 30 Clubs have posted 2004-05 ticket prices that either have remained flat or have been reduced from last season's levels. "

http://nhlcbanews.com/reaction/daly_mailbag080404.html


Last edited by X0ssbar: 08-05-2004 at 10:09 PM.
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Old
08-05-2004, 11:03 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Top Shelf
Ticket prices are already coming down. Here is statement made by Bill Daily about ticket prices:

"As a point of information, 25 of our 30 Clubs have posted 2004-05 ticket prices that either have remained flat or have been reduced from last season's levels. "

http://nhlcbanews.com/reaction/daly_mailbag080404.html
great, so what you are saying is a CAP isnt needed to effect ticket prices.

look, the owners will have the blood on their hands because they will only negotiate for a cap. the players are willing to make changes to reduce their salary, but the owners arent interested.

this CBA provides ample opportunities for the owners to control costs and shutting down the league over it is assinine.

dr


Last edited by OlliMackBjugStud: 08-06-2004 at 07:02 AM.
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Old
08-06-2004, 12:19 AM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ACC1224
when you work in the real world, a four hour meeting can take weeks to prepare for, they don't just show up and start talking....to get to the level these guys have you definately work more than 40 hours a week.
Valid, but this isn't a cocktail party for a bunch of execs. This is a scheduled work session for people whose jobs exist primarily for the completion of the task.

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Old
08-06-2004, 04:09 AM
  #37
Vlad The Impaler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DementedReality
like another poster said, this is more about Bettmans ego.
None of this is about Bettman's ego, or Bob Goodenow's ego for that matter. Those are cheap arguments used by opponents from both sides that do not make much sense.

These guys may be manipulative, but they are hired for a job and that's what they do.

Gary Bettman certainly did not come to the NHL because of his hockey smarts. On that we can all agree. He couldn't have lasted a month in the NHL if what matters to him was his ego. And to top it off he knows that he will never win fan support no matter how hard he tried.

Guys like him and Goodenow are all about business. The ego thing is a myth that doesn't hold water.

Both these guys are hired for a purpose and are "the face" of each side. But the reality is they both have an army of people behind them dictating a great deal of what's going on. Doesn't matter to me because I think part of their job is to get that kind of heat but I don't think some of the accusations make for a very accurate depiction.

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08-06-2004, 07:01 AM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler
None of this is about Bettman's ego, or Bob Goodenow's ego for that matter. Those are cheap arguments used by opponents from both sides that do not make much sense.

These guys may be manipulative, but they are hired for a job and that's what they do.

Gary Bettman certainly did not come to the NHL because of his hockey smarts. On that we can all agree. He couldn't have lasted a month in the NHL if what matters to him was his ego. And to top it off he knows that he will never win fan support no matter how hard he tried.

Guys like him and Goodenow are all about business. The ego thing is a myth that doesn't hold water.

Both these guys are hired for a purpose and are "the face" of each side. But the reality is they both have an army of people behind them dictating a great deal of what's going on. Doesn't matter to me because I think part of their job is to get that kind of heat but I don't think some of the accusations make for a very accurate depiction.
normally i would agree. i have never been the on the bash bettman bandwagon.

however, when he comes out and says "the union only wants status quo" he is simply lying. people lie when their ego gets in the way of their pride.

but thats my opinion.

dr

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08-06-2004, 07:37 AM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kill 'Em All

"the already rich people" that are "running pro hockey into the ground" are the owners, not the players.

the owners are the ones that agreed to paying the insane contracts in the 1st place... $9 mil for holik, $6 mil for lapointe...
Ummm,i love when this kind of stuff comes up Fact is, 75% of the owners wouldn't nor couldn't sign those contracts but they have a direct bearing on all future players contracts.

The system is facked because of a few idiot owners who get into a bidding war with each other and drive all salaries up in the end. Don't blame owners in general because of a few rich nitwits.

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08-06-2004, 08:05 AM
  #40
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Quote:
Bettman said Wednesday he wouldn't consider a luxury tax.




This proves how unwilling Gary Bettman is to work with the union. What a freaken moron!!!! If I heard him say that, he would be fired in about 14 seconds for coming out in the media and saying something so assanine and then not want to call a salary cap exactly what it is. He is going to singlehandedly ruin this game, but no one wants to do anything about it. The owners need to grow some balls and mutiny against this guy, instead of giving him a new contract and the players even bigger ones that they knew they couldn't afford. While I do think the players should be "nice" and just accept a salary cap or luxury tax, by no means are they obligated to bail out the owners for being so incredibly stupid and escalating salaries by giving guys like Keith Tkachuk 11 million dollars!

Someone ask the Minnesota Wild, Tampa Bay Lightning, Nashville Predators and Ottawa Senators if there really needs to be a salary cap.

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08-06-2004, 08:14 AM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Top Shelf
"As a point of information, 25 of our 30 Clubs have posted 2004-05 ticket prices that either have remained flat or have been reduced from last season's levels. "

http://nhlcbanews.com/reaction/daly_mailbag080404.html
In case you're wondering who some of the five are, Atlanta is one of the risers. I'm sure it has to do with the All-Star game coming, that's enough of a draw that STH won't bail out, but also, to be fair, prices had held steady for several years before.

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08-06-2004, 08:55 AM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ulf
d day is not till the middle of jan...just like last time.
One big difference though is I think this time that the European clubs have said that if NHL players play for them, they have to honour their contracts for the whole year. If there's no lockout then most of the contracts get voided, but if they actually start playing for the team then they have to stay for the year.

If the NHL starts up in January, the talent in the league will be pretty seriously diluted...Dany Heatley, Joe Thornton, Rick Nash, Marian Gaborik, Pavel Datsyuk and Brendan Morrison among others have already signed over there, and you gotta think that as the date gets closer guys like Naslund, Forsberg, Kovalchuk, Jagr will also be signing lockout-contingent deals.

As a Canucks fan I can see 4 of our top 5 forwards playing in Europe next year if there's a lockout...plus 3 of the top 6 defensemen....if the season started up in January the Canucks and probably quite a few other teams will have pretty crappy lineups...it'll suck to watch.

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08-06-2004, 08:12 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler
None of this is about Bettman's ego, or Bob Goodenow's ego for that matter. Those are cheap arguments used by opponents from both sides that do not make much sense.

These guys may be manipulative, but they are hired for a job and that's what they do.

Gary Bettman certainly did not come to the NHL because of his hockey smarts. On that we can all agree. He couldn't have lasted a month in the NHL if what matters to him was his ego. And to top it off he knows that he will never win fan support no matter how hard he tried.

Guys like him and Goodenow are all about business. The ego thing is a myth that doesn't hold water.

Both these guys are hired for a purpose and are "the face" of each side. But the reality is they both have an army of people behind them dictating a great deal of what's going on. Doesn't matter to me because I think part of their job is to get that kind of heat but I don't think some of the accusations make for a very accurate depiction.
I'm not saying to bash Bettman at all but to me it make sense that Gary Bettman got a lot to PROVE in this negotiations :

1) To keep his jobs, he needs to be firm & not budging not for the fans but to save his b*tt .

2) A lot of rumors says that he would like to be a commissionner of another sports & in order to do that, I think he needs to prove that he can play hardball with the union.

3) Another rumors says that he promise the OWNER that he would get the a CAP no matter how it would be done or when it would be done. To me it makes a lot of sense, owner are *supposedly* putting a 300M$ war chest & they claim to lose 273M$. A lockout alone would make each team loss millions & a lockout would make a lot of team lose some fan base, even in Montreal , Toronto , Calgary , Vancouver , Edmonton & Ottawa (I know there's a lot of DIE HARD fans here that would support them even if there was no hockey for 10000 years but the business corporation who buy the boxes @ 250,000$ would they continue to support hockey ???? It's not a matter of die hard fan here, it's all about business entertainment).

4) It's maybe august & a lot that being said is worthless but still Bettman is talking about a CAP & nothing more even if they got 6 concepts to work with. They have a NHLCBAnews.com website to put the fans on their side but the NHLPA did compromise a lot more than any of the NHL team CBA (Bettman, Daly, etc...) have done so far. We'll see around sept 10th what will transpire of the media talk but as it is, I don't see anything positive from the NHL while even if some fan claim players are overpaid, I perceive them that they are more willing to make something work in order to have a season.

When you know that every negotiation right now is only bait offer to start a 5% cut is already a 55M$+ cut in the salary structure (numbers could be wrong) & if you look that they supposedly offer a better rookie structure (less bonuses, more strict), I think that mean the NHLPA are willing to go way more than only 5%.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To me a cap is the worst thing that can happen to hockey :

A) you can kiss good bye the loyalty to the veteran players like Yzerman to stay with the club

B) you can probably say that even if the NHLPA is on drugs & said yes to a salary cap the UFA will probably drop from 31 to 26-27-28 & that means you can kiss goodbye the development program because you develop a player 7-8-9 years to have him in his prime & you lose him ? That's so bad I can't imagine.

C) you can kiss goodbye the quality of a good team & now having mediocre team to the stanley cup like the Carolina Panthers in football. Sure it's nice for the fans to see a #8 seed going all the way to the cup but what is the purpose when the #1 is as weak as the #8 seed because they had to a Ron Francis because of the cap. (This is what happen in the NFL that I follow closely).


Just my opinions of course but right now I have absolutely no confidence or trust in the OWNERS.

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