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Trade offer: Markov for Vinny, would you?

View Poll Results: Markov for Vinny?
Hell yeah! 43 21.29%
No way and get the hell out of hf boards you idiot! 159 78.71%
Voters: 202. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
01-23-2009, 02:46 AM
  #51
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From this perspective.

If Montreal has had Vinny Lecavalier all along and he has been the "francophone star" that the city and fans do crave, would you trade him to Tampa for Andrei Markov?

I doubt it.

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01-23-2009, 06:45 AM
  #52
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Sure I would do it. Even it hurts my soul to do it. Even if it hurts the team. Have you seen any Quebec-star in junior? The well is completly dry up there. Vinny may be the last big Quebecer star that we're gonna have for a long while. It's now or nothing to have somebody of this caliber.

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01-23-2009, 07:08 AM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evelKNAV View Post
From this perspective.

If Montreal has had Vinny Lecavalier all along and he has been the "francophone star" that the city and fans do crave, would you trade him to Tampa for Andrei Markov?

I doubt it.
But we're not in that reality, so why does it matter?

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01-23-2009, 07:14 AM
  #54
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straight up Markov for Vinny?!

Hell Yeah!

I'm surprised so many people said no. I can understand it could be hard to replace a guy like Markov, but come on - how can you say no to a player like Vinny for so cheap.

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01-23-2009, 07:44 AM
  #55
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Our record without Markov is brutal...we need a guy like that to get the puck up and out cleanly...what good would it do, if we didn't have a number 1 Dman to do this, see Tampa...Vinny waiting for a puck that just doesn't get there...

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01-23-2009, 07:49 AM
  #56
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I would....if you're then able to get Kaberle from the Leafs.

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01-23-2009, 07:50 AM
  #57
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value-wise I'd do it of course, but we wouldn't be better. Our offense is good enough, I don't want to see Plekanek or Lang on the 4th line. And our biggest hole this season is defense. With a trade like this, we would have an even bigger hole on defense. In fact, our defense would be in the bottom-tier of the NHL without Markov. Impossible to win the stanley cup with a bad defense.

Or, trade Markov for Vinnie.. They'll realise they made a mistake so we trade them Vinnie back for Markov, Arthukin and a 1st pick. ahahhaha

oh wait, I think there's a rule that a player can't be traded back to his former team in the same season. too bad.

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01-23-2009, 07:54 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BLONG7 View Post
Our record without Markov is brutal...we need a guy like that to get the puck up and out cleanly...what good would it do, if we didn't have a number 1 Dman to do this, see Tampa...Vinny waiting for a puck that just doesn't get there...
Maybe so. But I wasn't impressed with Markov's performance in the playoffs. People seems to have that tendancy to forget it. It seems easier to mention which forwards seems to have trouble in the playoffs but Markov seems to go under the radar asfar as the playoffs are concerned....and you can't said that he's been lights out so far. Surely offensively, and surprisingly defensively as well. Much more tentative than what he should be.

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01-23-2009, 07:59 AM
  #59
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TB would also have trouble justifying to its fans trading straight-up the face of their franchise for an introvert that mumbles his English (no matter how good he is).

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01-23-2009, 08:01 AM
  #60
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TB would also have trouble justifying to its fans trading straight-up the face of their franchise for an introvert that mumbles his English (no matter how good he is).
Well you might as well throw Higgins in the mix and some picks for them to not cry too much.

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01-23-2009, 08:50 AM
  #61
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Maybe so. But I wasn't impressed with Markov's performance in the playoffs. People seems to have that tendancy to forget it. It seems easier to mention which forwards seems to have trouble in the playoffs but Markov seems to go under the radar asfar as the playoffs are concerned....and you can't said that he's been lights out so far. Surely offensively, and surprisingly defensively as well. Much more tentative than what he should be.
Markov wasn't the only to struggle...Price did also. Would you trade Price for Vinny?

This isn't direct towards you Whitesnake but I find it really perplexing that HABS fans underestimate the value and importance of Markov, I mean I expect it from other fans, but as people who watch Markov every game I can't see how anyone would say the Habs would be a better team WITH Vinny MINUS Markov. Offense is not the problem on the Habs, they've got tons of talent, they're just having trouble using it from the backend when Markov isn't on the ice. The Habs are 4th in the Eastern Conference and Markov is the LEADING SCORER ON THE TEAM...

The key here would be to build around Price/Markov...


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Old
01-23-2009, 09:07 AM
  #62
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Well you might as well throw Higgins in the mix and some picks for them to not cry too much.
As long as players are getting "thrown in" let's get them to throw in Stamkos.

I'm glad some of you are not GM's in the NHL...

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01-23-2009, 09:11 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Maybe so. But I wasn't impressed with Markov's performance in the playoffs. People seems to have that tendancy to forget it. It seems easier to mention which forwards seems to have trouble in the playoffs but Markov seems to go under the radar asfar as the playoffs are concerned....and you can't said that he's been lights out so far. Surely offensively, and surprisingly defensively as well. Much more tentative than what he should be.
Since when is this a "tendency"?

Markov was not his usual self at the end of the playoffs because he got run at like 20 times and was playing hurt. Would you rather he wimp out and take himself out of the series? He was still above average in terms of NHL d-men.

We gave up about 25 shots a game so it was definitely not the defense that cost us the Phillie series.

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01-23-2009, 09:15 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Markov wasn't the only to struggle...Price did also. Would you trade Price for Vinny?

This isn't direct towards you Whitesnake but I find it really perplexing that HABS fans underestimate the value and importance of Markov, I mean I expect it from other fans, but as people who watch Markov every game I can't see how anyone would say the Habs would be a better team WITH Vinny MINUS Markov. Offense is not the problem on the Habs, they've got tons of talent, they're just having trouble using it from the backend when Markov isn't on the ice. The Habs are 4th in the Eastern Conference and Markov is the LEADING SCORER ON THE TEAM...

The key here would be to build around Price/Markov...
If you noticed, I said I would do the deal.....if we can get a Kaberle in another trade. So you gain Kaberle-Lecavalier for Markov and whoever else can be in a Kaberle trade. I'm not underestimating Markov's value. But I also believe that we are underestimating the importance of having some big physical centermen in our lienup, guys that can not only be the go-to-guys offensively but could also be better in a lot of other aspects in hockey, protecting the puck, helping your D'S, winning battles...anyway, we are talking here about replacing Plekanec with Lecavalier....that's a pretty big gap and the difference would obviously be really clear.....probably just as clear as losing Markov on D.

Again, I wouldn't lose Markov and get nothing in return...I mean Brisebois cannot be a top 4 here....But then isn't it what it's all about? Markov is THAT important to the team 'cause we don't have any other puckmoving d-man on our team? If by some kind of miracle you end up having some puckmoving d-men in the lineup, could losing Markov be less dramatic?

So, I wasn't saying, based on last year, trade him. But Markov has been in 4 playoffs with us so far and never was a factor, at least never was the factor that he was during the respective regular season. And I'm not solely talking about points here.

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01-23-2009, 09:24 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Since when is this a "tendency"?

Markov was not his usual self at the end of the playoffs because he got run at like 20 times and was playing hurt. Would you rather he wimp out and take himself out of the series? He was still above average in terms of NHL d-men.

We gave up about 25 shots a game so it was definitely not the defense that cost us the Phillie series.
A lot of players are playing hurt in the playoffs. Some are better to play with it than others. And it didn't refrain him to play in the Worlds Championship immediately after where he didn't look too badly at that time (didn't look that great but not that bad either). Even not at his best, he's still a pretty good d-man....But as a star #1, wouldn't you expect a little more? It's because he's the best that WE have that we should just be satisfied with him being the best of our team but how about a guy that changes the pace of a game by his solid defensive play? Something he does in the regular season....Defense wasn't the problem? So be it....I'm just expecting from Markov that not only he's not a problem but that he could be a solution. Again, it might be my expectations.

But then it's HF world...where if you would appreciate if a player would play better, you probably mean that he sucks....which I obviously never said that....No grey zones admitted....

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01-23-2009, 09:29 AM
  #66
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A lot of players are playing hurt in the playoffs. Some are better to play with it than others. And it didn't refrain him to play in the Worlds Championship immediately after where he didn't look too badly at that time (didn't look that great but not that bad either). Even not at his best, he's still a pretty good d-man....But as a star #1, wouldn't you expect a little more? It's because he's the best that WE have that we should just be satisfied with him being the best of our team but how about a guy that changes the pace of a game by his solid defensive play? Something he does in the regular season....Defense wasn't the problem? So be it....I'm just expecting from Markov that not only he's not a problem but that he could be a solution. Again, it might be my expectations.

But then it's HF world...where if you would appreciate if a player would play better, you probably mean that he sucks....which I obviously never said that....No grey zones admitted....
Malkin went from dominant to a non factor in the finals last year, that's what happens when players play through injuries.

If you want Markov to be in the force in the playoffs, you need to add another top puck moving d-man so he doesn't have to play 25-28 minutes a night.

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01-23-2009, 09:29 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by evelKNAV View Post
From this perspective.

If Montreal has had Vinny Lecavalier all along and he has been the "francophone star" that the city and fans do crave, would you trade him to Tampa for Andrei Markov?

I doubt it.
Most definitely not, but we'd be looking at trading our young assets in order to fix whatever hole on defense we'd have. We wouldn't try to trade Lecavalier to do that. Same scenario, different positions.

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01-23-2009, 09:41 AM
  #68
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I personally think Markov is a better player than Lecavalier. A #1 defenseman is just more important. And when you scrutinize the stats, Lecavalier hasn't actually been quite where his hype would lead one to believe. That said, I wouldn't object if somebody else came along and said that they were roughly equal as players, or if somebody else wanted to put Lecavalier ever so slightly ahead of Markov.

But from the standpoint of salary and contract status, Markov's overall value eclipses Lecavalier's no matter how you rate their on-ice impact.

This poll should not even be as close as it's showing now.

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01-23-2009, 09:45 AM
  #69
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If you noticed, I said I would do the deal.....if we can get a Kaberle in another trade. So you gain Kaberle-Lecavalier for Markov and whoever else can be in a Kaberle trade. I'm not underestimating Markov's value. But I also believe that we are underestimating the importance of having some big physical centermen in our lienup, guys that can not only be the go-to-guys offensively but could also be better in a lot of other aspects in hockey, protecting the puck, helping your D'S, winning battles...anyway, we are talking here about replacing Plekanec with Lecavalier....that's a pretty big gap and the difference would obviously be really clear.....probably just as clear as losing Markov on D.

Again, I wouldn't lose Markov and get nothing in return...I mean Brisebois cannot be a top 4 here....But then isn't it what it's all about? Markov is THAT important to the team 'cause we don't have any other puckmoving d-man on our team? If by some kind of miracle you end up having some puckmoving d-men in the lineup, could losing Markov be less dramatic?

So, I wasn't saying, based on last year, trade him. But Markov has been in 4 playoffs with us so far and never was a factor, at least never was the factor that he was during the respective regular season. And I'm not solely talking about points here.
I don't know...I have trouble justifying a team that's currently sitting 4th in the Eastern Conference (despite key injuries and underachieving from key players) trading it's #1 defensman (Markov), adding a #1 center(Vinny), then trading other pieces (i.e. Higgins + prospects + picks) for another #1 defenseman(Kaberle, who IMO, isn't the defensman Markov is all around).

It doesn't make sense...you're disrupting the whole chemistry of the team by overhauling it, when IMO, you only need to tweak it. Not to mention the albatross contract that follows the acquisition of Vinny. It just doesn't make any sense to me. Maybe on PS3 it does, but not in the real world.

I agree, the Habs need to add a big center...we've been saying this for years but to trade our #1 dman and IMO, best player to acquire that big center, we'll just be sitting here a few weeks later complaining that we need a #1 defensman.

As for Markov's performance in the playoffs...yes he did struggle, but so did the whole team and if i'm not mistaken, Markov wasn't 100%. Also, the playoffs are a weird thing, before the Wings won the Cup last year, Datsyuk wasn't considered a playoff player either. But what happened? The Wings got hot and they won the Cup and Datsyuk was a key member.

I think people put too much stock into playoff performances...the playoffs are an extension of a regular season, to have success and win a Cup or at least go to the Finals, you have to have a lot of things go right for you and get hot at the right time. For example, if the the playoffs were the last 25 games or so of this present season, then technically, the Bruins would be Cup champions, but does that mean come April/May/June it will still be the case? There's no recipe, what center did the Wings have last year who was over 6' feet tall? Is their goalie Chris Osgood some kind of benchmark for goaltenders?

The Habs could get hot in the playoffs and that could carry them to a Cup win...then during the offseason everyone is going to be saying how the way to win a Cup is to build your team like the Habs did. It's always the same story every year...People always think that to have success in the playoffs, you're team has to have some pre-set parameters, I just don't agree with that.

The Habs need to add pieces, not add by substraction.

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Old
01-23-2009, 10:04 AM
  #70
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I don't know...I have trouble justifying a team that's currently sitting 4th in the Eastern Conference (despite key injuries and underachieving from key players) trading it's #1 defensman (Markov), adding a #1 center(Vinny), then trading other pieces (i.e. Higgins + prospects + picks) for another #1 defenseman(Kaberle, who IMO, isn't the defensman Markov is all around).

It doesn't make sense...you're disrupting the whole chemistry of the team by overhauling it, when IMO, you only need to tweak it. Not to mention the albatross contract that follows the acquisition of Vinny. It just doesn't make any sense to me. Maybe on PS3 it does, but not in the real world.

I agree, the Habs need to add a big center...we've been saying this for years but to trade our #1 dman and IMO, best player to acquire that big center, we'll just be sitting here a few weeks later complaining that we need a #1 defensman.

As for Markov's performance in the playoffs...yes he did struggle, but so did the whole team and if i'm not mistaken, Markov wasn't 100%. Also, the playoffs are a weird thing, before the Wings won the Cup last year, Datsyuk wasn't considered a playoff player either. But what happened? The Wings got hot and they won the Cup and Datsyuk was a key member.

I think people put too much stock into playoff performances...the playoffs are an extension of a regular season, to have success and win a Cup or at least go to the Finals, you have to have a lot of things go right for you and get hot at the right time. For example, if the the playoffs were the last 25 games or so of this present season, then technically, the Bruins would be Cup champions, but does that mean come April/May/June it will still be the case? There's no recipe, what center did the Wings have last year who was over 6' feet tall? Is their goalie Chris Osgood some kind of benchmark for goaltenders?

The Habs could get hot in the playoffs and that could carry them to a Cup win...then during the offseason everyone is going to be saying how the way to win a Cup is to build your team like the Habs did. It's always the same story every year...People always think that to have success in the playoffs, you're team has to have some pre-set parameters, I just don't agree with that.

The Habs need to add pieces, not add by substraction.
Good post.

As far as the Wings are concerned, I just don't think we could use their example 'cause they rely on their greatness as far as their 2-way game are concerned, how great they're playing their system and how physically their top 6 can handle a game. But also when you can count on guys like Datzyuk, Zetterberg (the best 2-way players in the league) and Lidstrom, until you have those guys in your team, you need to find some other pieces that will make up for what you don't have. Wings are always contenders but don't win it every year. But if there is one criteria that keeps coming back as far as the Cup winners is how physically committed the top-6 players of each team are. I'm not talking necessarily about 6'4'' 220lbs guys here, but Zetterberg will easily undress you and will easily get the puck in the corner 'cause of how fast he is but also how great he's playing the body and how he's not afraid of any corners.

Again, I'm not looking to deal anybody and won't call for Gainey's head if we don't trade Markov for Lecavalier but if there is a way that in the end you can end up with Kaberle-Lecavalier for Markov-Plekanec and a couple of prospects and picks....how isn't it more addition than substraction?

I also believe that we are underrating Kaberle's play as well.

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01-23-2009, 10:05 AM
  #71
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Why solving a problem by creating an another?

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01-23-2009, 10:07 AM
  #72
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I personally think Markov is a better player than Lecavalier. A #1 defenseman is just more important. And when you scrutinize the stats, Lecavalier hasn't actually been quite where his hype would lead one to believe. That said, I wouldn't object if somebody else came along and said that they were roughly equal as players, or if somebody else wanted to put Lecavalier ever so slightly ahead of Markov.

But from the standpoint of salary and contract status, Markov's overall value eclipses Lecavalier's no matter how you rate their on-ice impact.

This poll should not even be as close as it's showing now.
Lecavalier is better suited in today's NHL as far as overall play and stats. Also, I'm one of the few who believes that instead of crumbling down under the pressure, he'll be able to live with it and thrive on it and be even better, but that's just an opinion, nothing tangible to explain this.

I agree that the contract status is a problem though.....a real one.....reason why I'm not on the "I want Lecavalier whatever it costs" bandwagon...

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01-23-2009, 10:17 AM
  #73
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NO----by god NO

have any idea what the odds are on Drafting, Developping and Displaying a successful #1 dman in this league????

on top of that, he WANTS to stick with the bleu-blanc-rouge.

he has yet to reach his full potential and you are rdy to sacrifice him for a player who has yet to state that he would even like to play for the Habs. Vinny COULDA SHOULDA but he didnt, so end of story.

to anyone else in the league (probably) Vinny > MArky

to us Habs Marky >>>>>>> Vinny

and thats the bottom line.

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01-23-2009, 10:22 AM
  #74
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Good post.

As far as the Wings are concerned, I just don't think we could use their example 'cause they rely on their greatness as far as their 2-way game are concerned, how great they're playing their system and how physically their top 6 can handle a game. But also when you can count on guys like Datzyuk, Zetterberg (the best 2-way players in the league) and Lidstrom, until you have those guys in your team, you need to find some other pieces that will make up for what you don't have. Wings are always contenders but don't win it every year. But if there is one criteria that keeps coming back as far as the Cup winners is how physically committed the top-6 players of each team are. I'm not talking necessarily about 6'4'' 220lbs guys here, but Zetterberg will easily undress you and will easily get the puck in the corner 'cause of how fast he is but also how great he's playing the body and how he's not afraid of any corners.

Again, I'm not looking to deal anybody and won't call for Gainey's head if we don't trade Markov for Lecavalier but if there is a way that in the end you can end up with Kaberle-Lecavalier for Markov-Plekanec and a couple of prospects and picks....how isn't it more addition than substraction?

I also believe that we are underrating Kaberle's play as well.
You said it perfectly when it comes to the Wings...it's their committment to 2 way play that makes them successful year in year out. But even if you look at Datsyuk, it took him a few years before he committed to that, same with Zetterberg. It takes the committment from the whole team, everyone has to be willing to pay the price for 82 games + playoffs, everyone has to be at peak performace during the playoffs, like I said earlier, it's got more to do with committment than personel.

I'll always go back to the Panthers Cup run in 95-96, have you guys seen the names that were on that team? Man, they didn't make it there because they had a big center or because they had puck moving defensmen or shut down defenman or a grind line, they made it there because all the players bought into whatever system they were playing at the time.

It's Gainey/Carbo's job, especially as guys who've been there before, to get the whole team to buy into what it takes to get to a Cup final, that IMO, is more important than whatever personel they have on the ice. I liken it to the New England Patriots...they don't have the most talent on the field but they're always competitive no matter who is there because they buy into what Belichik, their coach, is selling. You can see their a committed team, that's why when one guy leaves via free agency or if they get injuries, their backups step in and the transition is nearly seamless...in hockey, you can say the same about the Wings or Devils. I think you're starting to see that in Montreal with the way our kids in Hamilton are being schooled, but it's one of the hardest things to learn how to win and act like a winner...Habs may not win it all this year but I think they're on the right track as an organization...i'm just not sure abandonning the plan to get Vinny is the answer.

* As for Kaberle...I think he's a wonderful defensman, but I have trouble seeing how a guy coming from a losing environment like Toronto's can help the Habs more than Markov can at this point.

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01-23-2009, 10:24 AM
  #75
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gotta be stupid to do that
no way

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