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Tomas Kaberle

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Old
01-23-2009, 01:50 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by grabo84 View Post
No they won't. I bet even devils fans will agree that Kaberle is better than Oduya. I'm not knocking Oduya, but that isn't even close. Just admit you were wrong on this one.
I'll admit that Kaberle is better than Oduya. Which is why I posted "Players who are probably around where Kaberle is." Kaberle is not miles ahead of Oduya, but he is the better defensemen. I just included some of those players for comparison. I also think Kaberle is better than Daley, but not by a ridiculous amount.

As for the players on top, theres no need to argue, he's not better than any of them.

And LOL @ the guy who would take Kaberle over Burns or Ballard.

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01-23-2009, 01:54 PM
  #77
DougGilmour93
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Kaberle is miles ahead of Daley and Oduya...easily.

Seriously, you'r making yourself look bad here. Just pack it up and call it a day already...lol

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01-23-2009, 01:55 PM
  #78
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Burns is valuable for potential, not because he's better right now. You're a florida fan, so I'll give you a pass on Ballard, but I don't think its close there either. Ballard is having a good year, but he doesn't have Kaberle's track record.

Realistically, Kaberle would be between 10 and 15 on my list.

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01-23-2009, 02:03 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by grabo84 View Post
Burns is valuable for potential, not because he's better right now. You're a florida fan, so I'll give you a pass on Ballard, but I don't think its close there either. Ballard is having a good year, but he doesn't have Kaberle's track record.

Realistically, Kaberle would be between 10 and 15 on my list.
Who would you put ahead and behind Kaberle? Just curious, because you're one of the VERY few Leafs fans who seem to not overrate their players.

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01-23-2009, 02:18 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Biggzy View Post
Who would you put ahead or behind Kaberle? Just curious, because you're one of the VERY few Leafs fans who seem to not overrate their players.
These are ten D that I would consider ahead of Kaberle right now. Boyle is debatable, but he's playing great, so its impossible to leave him off. This isn't in any sort of order, I basically took names from your list. I think Chara is the best D in the league, with Lidstrom right behind.

Pronger
Niedermayer
Green
Markov
Phaneuf
Weber
Boyle
Lidstrom
Chara
Keith

So, its definitely possible a case could be made to drop him down a few pegs, depending on what you think of Bouwmeester, Timonen, Regehr, etc. Still, I don't see him falling more than 3-4 spots.

This leaves him around top fifteen. Bear in mind that I'm not considering age, potential or contract status - this is strictly on the basis of having them for one year.

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01-23-2009, 02:22 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grabo84 View Post
These are ten D that I would consider ahead of Kaberle right now. Boyle is debatable, but he's playing great, so its impossible to leave him off. This isn't in any sort of order, I basically took names from your list. I think Chara is the best D in the league, with Lidstrom right behind.

Pronger
Niedermayer
Green
Markov
Phaneuf
Weber
Boyle
Lidstrom
Chara
Keith

So, its definitely possible a case could be made to drop him down a few pegs, depending on what you think of Bouwmeester, Timonen, Regehr, etc. Still, I don't see him falling more than 3-4 spots.

This leaves him around top fifteen. Bear in mind that I'm not considering age, potential or contract status - this is strictly on the basis of having them for one year.
And those things IMO increase Kaberle's value in a trade.

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Old
01-23-2009, 02:27 PM
  #82
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I would have to put Streit above him too. Look what hes doing on the worst team in the league.

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Old
01-23-2009, 02:35 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by mcphllp View Post
I would have to put Streit above him too. Look what hes doing on the worst team in the league.
I see Streit as maybe top-20, but definitely top-30 right now. He's a great hockey player, and its unbelievable what he's done in Long Island. Still, he's a guy with a limited track record, so that tends to depress value a bit. Top 30 is still a very good defenceman though.

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Old
01-23-2009, 02:37 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggzy View Post
I'll admit that Kaberle is better than Oduya. Which is why I posted "Players who are probably around where Kaberle is." Kaberle is not miles ahead of Oduya, but he is the better defensemen. I just included some of those players for comparison. I also think Kaberle is better than Daley, but not by a ridiculous amount.

As for the players on top, theres no need to argue, he's not better than any of them.

And LOL @ the guy who would take Kaberle over Burns or Ballard.
No need to argue that Jovo is better? Ha.

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Old
01-23-2009, 02:56 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggzy View Post
It all depends really. But let's say you're creating a team from scratch and could pick any d-man you wanted. I'd take any of these defensemen over Kaberle, in no particular order.

Pronger
Niedermayer
Green
JayBo
Markov
Phaneuf
Weber
Boyle
Lidstrom
Campbell
Chara
Burns
Ballard
Regehr
Souray
Jovo
Doughty
Bogosian

Players who I left out but are probably around where Kaberle is:

Timonen
Komisarek
Coburn
Daley
Oduya
Corvo
Keith
Rafalski
Schenn



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Old
01-23-2009, 03:01 PM
  #86
Bunter McVirtanen
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Comparing Oduya and Kaberle ... WTF are you smoking?!?!

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01-23-2009, 03:05 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlMo View Post
I am a Kaberle fan but I think you are giving him much more credit than he deserves. He is not a top 10 dman in the league......he never was. He has not played for a "bad" Toronto his whole career. In fact, his best years were during the Quinn years when the Leafs played run and gun and were one of the top teams in the league. His breakout passes and vision are only 2nd to Lidstrom? That is an extremely bold statement to make. Niedermayer, Gonchar, Zubov, Markov, Timonen, etc. any of these names ring a bell? Being worth more than Campbell or Boyle is debateable. He will get a package similar to what Boyle got the Lightning.
Amen Almo, Ive been saying this forever, thats why I wish posters like you and MacDaddy were on more often, the truth is that the sheer number of Leaf fans lifts up kaberle's reputation. He's top 20-25, yes and marvelous on the offensive side, but closer to average on the defensive side, Doug Gilmour the poster and others keep posting outlandish proposals which really skewers the truth.

its like Mark Streit on my Islanders, he's having a marvelous offensive year with us, but I'd never call him a first pairing Defender, because he's not, his game is simply too limited. I think you should evaluate based on weaknesses, rather than letting one exceptional aspect color your judgment to such an extent that it invalidates what is reality and what is not.

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01-23-2009, 03:08 PM
  #88
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Lol at some of the Leafs haters in this thread.......

As for Tomas Kaberle's value, it's probably a 1st round pick (20~ range), a good prospect, and a roster player (with potential). But it's up to Burke to determine what his true value is. We may find out on deadline day. I am crossing my fingers as trading Tomas would really speed up the rebuild process. Really speed it up to put an emphasis.

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Old
01-23-2009, 03:08 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isles_Guy View Post
Amen Almo, Ive been saying this forever, thats why I wish posters like you and MacDaddy were on more often, the truth is that the sheer number of Leaf fans lifts up kaberle's reputation. He's top 20-25, yes and marvelous on the offensive side, but closer to average on the defensive side, Doug Gilmour the poster and others keep posting outlandish proposals which really skewers the truth.

its like Mark Streit on my Islanders, he's having a marvelous offensive year with us, but I'd never call him a first pairing Defender, because he's not, his game is simply too limited. I think you should evaluate based on weaknesses, rather than letting one exceptional aspect color your judgment to such an extent that it invalidates what is reality and what is not.
My proposals aren't outlandish. My Kaberle proposals are based on comparables. It's quite simple really. I'm having trouble trying to figure out why people can't comprehend that???

Are Boyle and Kaberle not similar players?

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01-23-2009, 03:17 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 View Post
My proposals aren't outlandish. My Kaberle proposals are based on comparables. It's quite simple really. I'm having trouble trying to figure out why people can't comprehend that???

Are Boyle and Kaberle not similar players?
No, he's right. You're quite the homer sometimes. Not as bad as Burke is GOD, but you really do push it sometimes.

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01-23-2009, 03:17 PM
  #91
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Boyle and Campbell are both 7 million dollar defensemen. Kaberle is making 4.25. The value that Kaberle will get back in any trade will exceed both of these defensemen. Keep in mind that if you compare all three stats over the years that they are not much different.

At the very least it should be the same package that comes back if not a little more because of the cap hit.

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01-23-2009, 03:20 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by BlueForever View Post
Boyle and Campbell are both 7 million dollar defensemen. Kaberle is making 4.25. The value that Kaberle will get back in any trade will exceed both of these defensemen. Keep in mind that if you compare all three stats over the years that they are not much different.

At the very least it should be the same package that comes back if not a little more because of the cap hit.
I would take Boyle over Kaberle almost anyday. Campbell and Kaberle are more comparable IMO.

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01-23-2009, 03:20 PM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlMo View Post
I am a Kaberle fan but I think you are giving him much more credit than he deserves. He is not a top 10 dman in the league......he never was. He has not played for a "bad" Toronto his whole career. In fact, his best years were during the Quinn years when the Leafs played run and gun and were one of the top teams in the league. His breakout passes and vision are only 2nd to Lidstrom? That is an extremely bold statement to make. Niedermayer, Gonchar, Zubov, Markov, Timonen, etc. any of these names ring a bell? Being worth more than Campbell or Boyle is debateable. He will get a package similar to what Boyle got the Lightning.

Have a good look and see who these guys play with ... Currently Kabs sits 12th in scoring playin on a inept team ... Who is he feeding the puck to - put him on detroit / philly / Mont and whatch him rack them points up... When he is traded in 4 - 6 weeks to a good team - he will be recognized for what he is ..

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01-23-2009, 03:36 PM
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grabo84 View Post
These are ten D that I would consider ahead of Kaberle right now. Boyle is debatable, but he's playing great, so its impossible to leave him off. This isn't in any sort of order, I basically took names from your list. I think Chara is the best D in the league, with Lidstrom right behind.

Pronger
Niedermayer
Green
Markov
Phaneuf
Weber
Boyle
Lidstrom
Chara
Keith

So, its definitely possible a case could be made to drop him down a few pegs, depending on what you think of Bouwmeester, Timonen, Regehr, etc. Still, I don't see him falling more than 3-4 spots.

This leaves him around top fifteen. Bear in mind that I'm not considering age, potential or contract status - this is strictly on the basis of having them for one year.
I agree with this list. But lets look at age and contract (in no particular order).

Kaberle age:30 $4.25 m
Pronger age:34 $6.25 m
Niedermayer age:33 $6.75 m
Green age:22 $6.00 m
Markov age:29 $5.75 m
Phaneuf age:23 $7.00 m
Weber age:22 $4.50 m
Boyle age:31 $6.66 m
Lidstrom age:38 $7.45 m
Chara age:31 $7.50 m
Keith age:24 $1.60 m
Bouwmeester age:24 $4.87 m
Timonen age:33 $8.00 m
Regehr age:28 $4.60 m

Weber, Regehr and Bouwmeester have similar salaries, but are younger, of course. Keith's is much lower than everyone. Otherwise, Kaberle is at least $1 million cheaper, and in most cases at least $2 million. This means very little for a team that doesn't have cap issues... but with the salary cap not going up in the off-season I foresee (as I imagine GM's do) the salary cap being an issue for every team (including teams not expected to compete for the playoffs as I imagine they all plan on doing so in the future.. meaning that it would suit them best to be chintzy with salary).

In other words, if you place Kaberle amongst this company (as I do) then you must realize just how decent his salary is.

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Old
01-23-2009, 03:45 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by mariol329 View Post
Have a good look and see who these guys play with ... Currently Kabs sits 12th in scoring playin on a inept team ... Who is he feeding the puck to - put him on detroit / philly / Mont and whatch him rack them points up... When he is traded in 4 - 6 weeks to a good team - he will be recognized for what he is ..
Dude Mark Streit is top 5 in scoring and look who he's playing with...the worst team in the league. So don't gimme that bs.

And lol @ other Leafs fans giving DougGilmour93 the boot.

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01-23-2009, 03:48 PM
  #96
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Ya I cant get over how important Streit is to that team and last year to the Canadiens. I thought going into this year that he would be a 40 point guy and that he was a product of the Habs pp. Turns out the Habs pp was a product of Mark Streit.

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01-23-2009, 03:50 PM
  #97
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I'm a Leaf fan and Kaberle fan, and I do think that most Leaf fans do overrate Kaberle...just a lil bit. But I didn't come here to say that. I just wanted to say that I've really started noticing how great of a breakaway pass Kaberle has. Soooooo many times this season I've seen Kabby make a sweet pass to another Leaf giving him a clear breakaway...of course they almost never score, but that's something else entirely.

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01-23-2009, 03:51 PM
  #98
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Tied for 6th in defencemen PP points playing on this team is my most amazing stat.

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01-23-2009, 03:56 PM
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggzy View Post
Who would you put ahead and behind Kaberle? Just curious, because you're one of the VERY few Leafs fans who seem to not overrate their players.
Everyone is ripping on you. Go to bed.

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01-23-2009, 04:12 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by Isles_Guy View Post
Kaberle is the single most overated player in hockey, theres a fundamental disconnect here, with the Fans in Toronto seeing him as a generational talent and fans from other cities seeing him as a quality offensive defender, but nothing special as a defender
Don't know which Leaf fans you've been speaking to. Some may overrate Kaberle but the vast majority of Leaf fans see Kaberle as quality offensive defender not even close to being a generational talent. Considering his contract and the value given to quality offensive D I'd say more of the trade proposals made by non Leaf fans undervalue him than the trade proposals made by Leaf fans overvalue him. Most of the trade proposals by both sides are poorly thought out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemesis65 View Post


Has there been a player involved in more "Value of" threads then Kaberle? Cant help but think Toronto fans are going to be a little upset if he does ever get traded. Because there is no way he will return what many of you hope he will.
Who knows what his trade value will be? Maybe Leaf fans will be disappointed or maybe some of the naysayers will be pissed at what their team gives up to get Kaberle. If a contending team loses their main pucking moving D just before the trade deadline Kaberles value goes up. If a young prospect suddenly flourishes as a puck moving D on a team that was looking at Kaberle than the value drops. We'll see at the deadline what he's worth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mariol329 View Post
... He has played for a bad Toronto team his whole career and has still managed to flourish
Gotta love a knowledgeable post... your post isn't one of them and as a result you lose credibility..
Kaberle has played on an awful Leaf team post lockout. In his rookie season the Leafs were final 4 in the playoffs losing to Buffalo in the Conference Finals. While not being elite they were still one of the better performing teams up to the lockout including another Conference Final appearance in '02 losing to Carolina.

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