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Old
01-25-2009, 10:41 PM
  #26
VAN-HAB
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A top 4 defenseman in <-----------
Brisebois out--------->

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Old
01-25-2009, 10:55 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Fine, for those who insist on more sandpaper:

Who, in the healthy lineup of forwards, would you bump off to make room for your sandpaper?

I mean this lineup:
Pacioretty-Plekanec-Kovalev
Higgins-Koivu-Tanguay
Kostitsyn-Lang-Kostitsyn
Latendresse-Lapierre-Kostopoulos


Also, compare the amount of "sandpaper" on a team like Boston to that of Montreal and realize that the difference is most likely overstated.

I'm all for adding a big, tough scorer, a guy like we think Pacioretty can develop into, but teams seldom trade these valuable guys.

All in all if this team has an area that's less strong, it's clear that defense is it. Unless he finds a home run to slam, Gainey should pursue a defenseman.
Exactly, our Forwards are fine. When we have everyone healthy we are set up front. We need a top defenceman or a good 2 way guy who can bump gorges to the bottom pair with Bouillon. Brisebois is not an everyday defenceman.

If Bob ends up getting Vinny, we still need an upgrade on Defence. Especially if Bob has to include Gorges in the deal. Brisebois just simple is not good enough to play in the playoffs as a regular.


Last edited by Toro: 01-25-2009 at 11:00 PM.
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Old
01-25-2009, 11:14 PM
  #28
Kirk Muller
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Fine, for those who insist on more sandpaper:

Who, in the healthy lineup of forwards, would you bump off to make room for your sandpaper?

I mean this lineup:
Pacioretty-Plekanec-Kovalev
Higgins-Koivu-Tanguay
Kostitsyn-Lang-Kostitsyn
Latendresse-Lapierre-Kostopoulos


Also, compare the amount of "sandpaper" on a team like Boston to that of Montreal and realize that the difference is most likely overstated.

I'm all for adding a big, tough scorer, a guy like we think Pacioretty can develop into, but teams seldom trade these valuable guys.

All in all if this team has an area that's less strong, it's clear that defense is it. Unless he finds a home run to slam, Gainey should pursue a defenseman.
I am willing to bump our "first line" center who is on pace for 36 points this year and who lost his pair around the beginning of last years playoffs.

also i find Montreal lacks guys who fight thru adversity and raise there play when things get tough. Grit or sandpaper is probably the wrong word for it. I find Koivu is the only guy in Montreal's top six forward who would sacrifice himself to score a goal or do everything he can no matter how badly beaten he is who will continue to fight.

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01-25-2009, 11:21 PM
  #29
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by Andrei Kostopolous View Post
I am willing to bump our "first line" center who is on pace for 36 points this year and who lost his pair around the beginning of last years playoffs.

also i find Montreal lacks guys who fight thru adversity and raise there play when things get tough. Grit or sandpaper is probably the wrong word for it. I find Koivu is the only guy in Montreal's top six forward who would sacrifice himself to score a goal or do everything he can no matter how badly beaten he is who will continue to fight.
You mean like losing Game7 after leading the series 3-1?..Oh wait..

But nahhh...that wasn't adversity, we didn't rally to kill all the momentum they had..

And it's all good to be willing to bump Plek out, but it all depends for whom. I'd be willing to bump quite a few players, but what will we be getting back..that's more important to know.

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Old
01-26-2009, 12:27 AM
  #30
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A top 4 dman with a blistering shot and not a defensive realability...it would help the PP a lot, and its what is it missing right now

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01-26-2009, 01:12 AM
  #31
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I would welcome Souray back and use Brisebois as the 7th. He could probably whip O'byrne into shape too.

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01-26-2009, 05:09 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by couz View Post
Vinny is tough, he plays with an edge.

Of all top ten centers in the NHL I'd put him as one of the toughest...I mean the guy dropped the gloves twice with Chara


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Old
01-26-2009, 01:27 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
You mean like losing Game7 after leading the series 3-1?..Oh wait..

But nahhh...that wasn't adversity, we didn't rally to kill all the momentum they had..

And it's all good to be willing to bump Plek out, but it all depends for whom. I'd be willing to bump quite a few players, but what will we be getting back..that's more important to know.
Adversity or lacking killer instinct? A series that shouldn't even gotten that far. Great a few games here and there don't change the norm. You are talking about a team that barely gets out of the first round yearly.

What top six forwards do you find will continually sacrifice themselves for the win? How many of the top six forwards don't disappear most of the time when hit or face tough checking?

The sad thing is Max Lapierre could probably meet Pleks production on the top line. The question is who would you consider bumping? Pleks production is easily replaceable. The other question is are you replacing Plekanec as top 2 line center or as a shut down third line center. I would say Koivu, Lang and Lapierre are all above Pleks.

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Old
01-26-2009, 01:30 PM
  #34
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A top 4 Defencemen so we don't have to dress Brisebois ever again!!!

Once we get everybody back and healthy, we should be ok for scoring goals and putting points on the board, but we need some help on defence to keep the puck out and to also help in the point scoring department too.

We don't need much help to be honest, but if we need it anywhere, it would have to be on defence.

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01-26-2009, 01:41 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Ross MacLochness View Post
Defense, for the love of god, defense.

After last season would it not be a little crazy to go into this years playoffs with the identical forward lines that got us knocked out in the 2nd round last year? Of course, so Gainey told a few guys to take a hike and brought in some new blood from outside and from Hamilton. Well as of right now we have the exact same defence we had in last years playoffs. I just don't think it's going to cut it. Brisebois can't play a regular shift in the playoffs. That's just how I feel. Get a legitimate 4-5 D man and this team looks pretty good.
It wasn't the forwards that got us knocked out in the 2nd round last year, but we wouldn't go in with the identical lines Ryder and Smolinski are out and Lang and Tanguay are in. I think we need another puck mover because right now teams key in on Markov and last year he got run all playoffs and felt the effects.

Goaltending was a huge problem last year, hopefully the extra year's experience makes a big difference with CP.

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Old
01-26-2009, 02:38 PM
  #36
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by Andrei Kostopolous View Post
Adversity or lacking killer instinct? A series that shouldn't even gotten that far. Great a few games here and there don't change the norm. You are talking about a team that barely gets out of the first round yearly.

What top six forwards do you find will continually sacrifice themselves for the win? How many of the top six forwards don't disappear most of the time when hit or face tough checking?

The sad thing is Max Lapierre could probably meet Pleks production on the top line. The question is who would you consider bumping? Pleks production is easily replaceable. The other question is are you replacing Plekanec as top 2 line center or as a shut down third line center. I would say Koivu, Lang and Lapierre are all above Pleks.
Why shouldn't it have gotten to a seventh game?..
Boston played really well after Game1, and they came into this season the same way they played vs us in the PO last year. Where are they now??..Oh right, 1st in East.

I had enough of this myth that our players back off when getting hit.
Name me one team that gets destroyed physically and gets up to eat some more crap?.
Sure, we have more finesse players, but that doesn't mean we back off.

We played vs arguably the 2 most physical team in the East last season in the POs. Boston played great and once they got on their roll, they were hard to stop.
Philly didn't dominate us at all, if anything they weren't even better than the Bruins, but our goaltending was horrendous and theirs was just outright lucky. Nothing went in for us, everything went in for them. Had nothing to do with us backing off after being physically intimidated simply because that wasn't the case.

Had we beaten Philly, we would have faced another team that is more focused on finesse than power.

One can argue, NYR are another team that had a mix of finesse with a lot of grit/power last season. Down 5-0, we came back to win. I don't know about you, but it doesn't quite show that we back down a whole lot.
I don't care if you think A.Kost or Plek or whomever backs off after getting hammered once. It's very possible that they do, that's why we always say that big hits can sway the momentum your way.
That being said, we can get the momentum back if our grinders carry on a big hit after, or a big fight, or if another line has a good offensive presence. That's why it's called a team sport, anybody can step up and swing the momemtum back our way.

A hockey game is extremely rarely dominated by 1team for 60min. There's ups and downs during a game, each team will have their scoring chances, etc..

Sure, if we can trade Plek for a big skillful hard nosed center, then yea, im all for it. But it's simply not gonna happen unless we give up more. Right now, a D should be our main focus.

As for a team that barely makes out of 1st round yearly, well we haven't had a team as good as we have in a very very very long time. So to be honest, it's not a far statement.
Also, many of our players came into the PO last season completely green or very lacking experience. So, this year we'll see how they can respond after knowing what to expect.

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Old
01-26-2009, 05:46 PM
  #37
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We need to trade all our players for the Bruins team(except Ryder).

Seriously there's a lot of work to do to reshape this team into something ressembling having the killer instint to go far in the playoffs. Our grinders are not mean enough, or big enough. We have no grit on our first two lines also. And the only thing that could fix our troubles in one move by aquiring one player would be doing the Lecavalier deal. Not so much because it's Vinny but it gives us a Top player in his prime and it would transform our club from top to bottom. The fact is, upfront we have old guys that have maybe three years left(Saku, Kovy, Lang) and young guys that are not "there" yet(Higgins, Plekanec, the Kosti Bros.). None of these can take the team on his back and bring it near a championship run. I have zero confidence in any of them. And if we cannot get that type of player in his prime at least make an effort as GM to phase out the players that cannot cut it on the secondary lines and get the type of guys that will bring some intimidation, that will be able to do the dirty work properly.

In short, we need:

1. A Top forward
2. Size and Grit on our first two lines
3. PP Savior
4. An Intimidating presence from third/fourth line

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Old
01-26-2009, 05:53 PM
  #38
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100% we need some grit in our top-six forwards. Artisans are great, but especially in the playoffs when the physical play steps up, we need to have a scorer who can play physically.

We also need a top-four defenseman.

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Old
01-26-2009, 06:34 PM
  #39
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this team needs to get 100% healty

and needs to find 2 strong lines of go the net hockey, not 3.5 lines of so so, but two soild lines of this, no pansy outside shooters,
and make Lappy the #3 line, and this team will be stronger

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Old
01-26-2009, 06:41 PM
  #40
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I think people under estimate our grit. Grit is not just people who deliver big hits and fight, it's people who are not afraid to get hit to make a play, who will head to the net, who won't back down to anyone and we have plenty of players who do that, something we didn't in previous years...

Pacioretty
D'agostini
Akos
Hamrlik
Komi
Latendresse
Lappiere
Kostopoulos
Koivu
Higgins
Stewart
Gorges
Cubes
Begin
Markov(Depending on his mood)
Kovalev(Depending on his mood)

I mean what more do you guys want with grit. You can still be smaller and still be gritty ala Koivu/Boullion.

All we need is another top 3 D man and we'll be solid. We don't need another center, even though Plekanec is not producing we still have two other 65 point centermen who are. Our wings are packed with talent and speed and have a good mix of skill and grit, they arent crazy tough, but they are still tough, something we haven't had in years.

One J-Bo type player and habs will go from good to Elite. Sure a forward can bring you scoring, but a big top 3 d-man will change the look of your team. Goalies and D-men are the foundations of a team and we all know anything with a good foundation stands tall.

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01-26-2009, 06:49 PM
  #41
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Cube is gritty and a lot of people want him to sit, worse yet everyone seems to have forgotten that it wasn't breeze that did nothing in the playoffs last year(In fact he was our top O dman) it was streit and markov, both of them playing badly on the PP because everyone figured it out by the playoffs.

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Old
01-26-2009, 06:54 PM
  #42
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Puck moving defenseman is the primary need. Hello Mr Kaberle After that I might consider another gritty dman like Witt from the Ilses. D is where we will win or lose going forward. Trying to get Vinny is a pipe dream and I don't think Jay Bo is worth the cost. He likely leave at the end of the season and look what that type of trade has done to the penguins.

Depending on the cap situation after that fill in where possible.

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01-26-2009, 06:57 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Drive425 View Post
Puck moving defenseman is the primary need. Hello Mr Kaberle After that I might consider another gritty dman like Witt from the Ilses. D is where we will win or lose going forward. Trying to get Vinny is a pipe dream and I don't think Jay Bo is worth the cost. He likely leave at the end of the season and look what that type of trade has done to the penguins.

Depending on the cap situation after that fill in where possible.
Kaberle would be a good plan b, actual more like like 1.b imo. Kubina would be the ideal choice, but that contract! OOUUFF!!

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Old
01-26-2009, 07:38 PM
  #44
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I think people under estimate our grit. Grit is not just people who deliver big hits and fight, it's people who are not afraid to get hit to make a play, who will head to the net, who won't back down to anyone and we have plenty of players who do that, something we didn't in previous years...

Pacioretty
D'agostini
Akos
Hamrlik
Komi
Latendresse
Lappiere
Kostopoulos
Koivu
Higgins
Stewart
Gorges
Cubes
Begin
Markov(Depending on his mood)
Kovalev(Depending on his mood)
How many of those guys are in the top six forwards? No one's saying that the team doesn't have enough grinders. And don't you think expecting rookies like D'Agostini and Pacioretty to play gritty in the playoffs is unrealistic? And honestly, come on, since when do guys like Higgins, Kovalev, D'Agostini, Kostitsyn, etc, not "back down to anyone"?

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01-26-2009, 07:51 PM
  #45
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How many of those guys are in the top six forwards? No one's saying that the team doesn't have enough grinders. And don't you think expecting rookies like D'Agostini and Pacioretty to play gritty in the playoffs is unrealistic? And honestly, come on, since when do guys like Higgins, Kovalev, D'Agostini, Kostitsyn, etc, not "back down to anyone"?
Higgins and Akos are constantly in the corners and heading to the net, in fact they are probably our two best players in front of the net.. Andrei will throw the more than occasional big hit. Higgins is hard to move off the puck. D'agostini has yet to back down from a check in his 23 games with the team. He's not afraid to go to the corner to get a puck(unlike Plekanec). A consistantly see Max Pacioretty take a beating in front of the net, he too give the more than the occasional big hit. Kovalev when he wants to will also take a hit to make a play, head to the corners and to the net.

What more do you expect from gritty?

Soft are guys who will think twice before they head to the corners, who will pass the puck, regardless of whether someone is there or not to avoid the hit. Will jump out of the way if they see the hit coming (ala Brisebois) Thus coughing up the puck.

What more do want? I believe the first paragraph defines gritty. Gritty is not playing with an edge, playing with an edge is just that, playing with an edge. Sergei plays with an edge, but is not gritty. Gritty are guys who aren't afraid of getting hurt to make plays, which we have many of.

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01-26-2009, 08:05 PM
  #46
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Kovalev when he wants to will also take a hit to make a play, head to the corners and to the net.
This i think is what sums up the problem though. The "when he wants to" part. And that applies to Higgins, skost, akosts, Kovy, Pleks and basically all of Montreal's top 6 not named Koivu.

None of those guys it comes naturally at all and often would rather take the path of least resistance even if that means not creating a chance. Do all these guys play gritty and battle sometimes. Of course. Is this what we will see in the playoffs? That i have my doubts.

I personally like the team and like most guys as individual players but i do wonder about the makeup of the team and its ability when it comes down to the post season. Its a young team so its difficult to judge cause they do need to learn so i do give them that. However we aren't talking about a dynasty either and no matter how attached we become to players some likely will need to be sacrificed.

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Old
01-26-2009, 08:11 PM
  #47
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I just dont want Bob to trade good young prospect or players that are doing good on the current team for rentals just to try to go for the cup. I dont think this team has what it takes to win it this year.
I dont care if the team does'nt win the cup this year.

Maybe get a top 4 d-men that will only cost us one prospect and a 3 round pick.

Dont really know anymore!!

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Old
01-26-2009, 08:16 PM
  #48
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Would people kindly stop using the term "killer instinct" or misspelled versions of the same expression. It's as meaningless as 110 percent.

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Old
01-26-2009, 09:38 PM
  #49
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Bob Gainey's most pressing issue is to find Mr Peabody, get into the "Wayback Machine", go back in time and sign Streit for 2.3 million bucks last year.

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01-27-2009, 04:23 AM
  #50
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i think it's fairly obvious again this season that the team lacks grit both up front and on defense.

It's pretty easy to look at our record this year and claim that everything is fine, especially given that this year, unlike last, we've had to deal with a rash of injuries to important players, and we've handled it without too much trouble.

imo, the problem remains that the way the team plays, even in winning, doesn't inspire much confidence that it will be as successful in a 7 game series during the playoff.
Like it or not, the pace and the nature of the game changes drastically come playoff time.
Cliche's abound, but as much as some people may dislike terms like "killer instinct", there is undeniably an intangible trait that teams "often" need to enjoy a long playoff run.

some teams do enjoy success without perhaps embodying that "win at all cost" mentality up and down the lineup, but only if they can rely on superstar level players or miracle quality goaltending to carry them through... and even then I'd argue that the support guys on teams like that find ways to play the "playoffs of their lives", thus giving their team that edge they need.

So with that said, is it possible that the Habs CAN make a deep run with the team, as is...

Of course....

- Price has shown at every level that he can provide that kind of Series-Stealing performance that can carry a team to the promise land.

- guys like Higgins, Plekanec, Lats, and Kost have all, at least in the regular season, shown burst of being able to play at all-star level... if they were to find it within themselves to play to that level during the rigorous playoffs, they could easily provide the quality of secondary scoring that could offset our lack of any bonafide superstars

- Lapierre, Kosto, Begin... however unlikely, it's not impossible that 1 or 2 of those guys could rise to the occasion and give a playoff performance similar to a Donovan/Nilsson from the flames cup run from a few years back (obscure reference, I know, but I was in Calgary at the time, and those two guys were a KEY part to the Flames cup run, and neither of them, before or since, have been any better than our three pluggers during the regular season.

- and Markov, Kovalev, Koivu, and Tanguay have all, at one time or another, played to their potential in high-stakes situations (be it stanley cup playoffs or international finals), so if healthy it's not a huge stretch to think that they could step up and carry the team through to a cup finals


all of these elements make it that the talking about our current roster and a cup appearance is certainly not far fetched.

but that being said, imo, one or two smaller type moves to add quality depth players who play a "playoff-style" of hockey would go a long, long way to making it easier for our already impressive team depth and skill to shine come playoff time.

imo, a player like A.Burrows would be a PERFECT fit... both salary wise and role wise (a third/fourth line of Burrows-Lapierre-Lats would be lights out!), is exactly what we need.

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