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Melanson: the jury is out...

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Old
01-27-2009, 09:32 PM
  #1
Habsterix*
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Melanson: the jury is out...

I know that the timing of this thread is not well chosen, I'll admit that much, but there is something about our coaching staff that has been bothering me for a few years now and that's the techniques coached by Roland Melanson to our goaltenders.

I have played at that position for many years. I have coached that position for about as many years. That certainly doesn't make me an expert on the matter, far from there, but there are details that I notice that may (or may not) go unnoticed when looking at our goaltenders, and they seem to be repetitive no matter what goalie we have in net.

I fully understand that the butterfly style relies heavily on the goalies going down on their knees. In order to be effective though, the technique and the timing must be dead on or goalies really put themselves in a very vulnerable position. I'm sick and tired of seeing our goalies go down on just about every single shot, whether they're screened or not, no matter where the shot is coming from. It is extremely difficult to stop a puck shot up high when you're down on your knees, much harder than it is to stop a low shot when you're standing up. The goals on Price at the ASG are just a few examples. Lecavalier's goal tonight is just another one. Although their skills level may differ, Huet, Aebischer and Halak all have (had) the same flaws.

I feel that although Price is doing quite well, we have yet to tap into his immense talent and I highly doubt that we ever will, that he'll ever become the shadow of Patrick Roy or the other greats we've been fortunate to see in Montreal if Melanson is his coach.

Patrick Roy became the player that we know because of François Allaire, and he's admitted to that in several occasions. The guy knows the butterfly and he worked with Patrick in perfecting his timing and his positioning.

We need to get this guy back into our organization and quickly.

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01-27-2009, 09:34 PM
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Allaire isn't going to leave the Ducks.

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Old
01-27-2009, 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted by MONACOBLUE View Post
Allaire isn't going to leave the Ducks.
Money talks. Also, going back home may not be much of a stretch...

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01-27-2009, 09:44 PM
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Skost was to blame for not covering his man. Price went down playing the %, it was a perfect shot by Vinny who had all the time in the world to aim.

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01-27-2009, 09:50 PM
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Us old guys have to stick together, Asterix. You're probably in your 60's so you'd have a lot of experience to draw upon.

What years did you play, and where?

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01-27-2009, 09:52 PM
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I'd say vinny's goal was Lappy's fault. He does great yeoman's work killing time in the other end then when the lightning break out, he stays with St. Louis all the way back up ice until he passes by the bench and just peels off leaving him free to gain the line, get the puck deep and dish to Vinny for an open look at the net.

Lappy needs to change when the puck is deep not while he's backchecking and the puck is entering our zone.

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01-27-2009, 09:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asterix View Post
I know that the timing of this thread is not well chosen, I'll admit that much, but there is something about our coaching staff that has been bothering me for a few years now and that's the techniques coached by Roland Melanson to our goaltenders.

I have played at that position for many years. I have coached that position for about as many years. That certainly doesn't make me an expert on the matter, far from there, but there are details that I notice that may (or may not) go unnoticed when looking at our goaltenders, and they seem to be repetitive no matter what goalie we have in net.

I fully understand that the butterfly style relies heavily on the goalies going down on their knees. In order to be effective though, the technique and the timing must be dead on or goalies really put themselves in a very vulnerable position. I'm sick and tired of seeing our goalies go down on just about every single shot, whether they're screened or not, no matter where the shot is coming from. It is extremely difficult to stop a puck shot up high when you're down on your knees, much harder than it is to stop a low shot when you're standing up. The goals on Price at the ASG are just a few examples. Lecavalier's goal tonight is just another one. Although their skills level may differ, Huet, Aebischer and Halak all have (had) the same flaws.

I feel that although Price is doing quite well, we have yet to tap into his immense talent and I highly doubt that we ever will, that he'll ever become the shadow of Patrick Roy or the other greats we've been fortunate to see in Montreal if Melanson is his coach.

Patrick Roy became the player that we know because of François Allaire, and he's admitted to that in several occasions. The guy knows the butterfly and he worked with Patrick in perfecting his timing and his positioning.

We need to get this guy back into our organization and quickly.
Or everyone can relax and be patient, and realize that Price is not "a great talent" above taking lumps along the way, but rather a young first year starting goalie still figuring this league out.

The attitude towards Price in fandom is ridiculous, if people aren't making endless excuses for his understandable growing pains, or slagging his internal competition ( Huet) they're blaming the goaltender coach for his poor outings.

Time for people to wake up and realize Price is a development project, one that's far from over.

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Old
01-27-2009, 09:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lefthanded View Post
Skost was to blame for not covering his man. Price went down playing the %, it was a perfect shot by Vinny who had all the time in the world to aim.
The percentage thing to do is stand up and hug the post...the shooter has nothing to shoot at from that angle.

Carey has not been sharp since coming back, it looks like they rushed him back(or he came back too soon to play in the All-star game). Tonight, with all the hockey, PR stuff and traveling he's had in the past week, no way I'd start him.

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01-27-2009, 09:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
The percentage thing to do is stand up and hug the post...the shooter has nothing to shoot at from that angle.

Carey has not been sharp since coming back, it looks like they rushed him back(or he came back too soon to play in the All-star game). Tonight, with all the hockey, PR stuff and traveling he's had in the past week, no way I'd start him.
Cannot argue about this one, still I don't see why Rolanson should be blamed for that.

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01-27-2009, 10:09 PM
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Carey has been less then average since his return, and so has the defense. This has been a problem for the team for the past month. Halak was not the reason we were getting scored on so much..

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01-27-2009, 10:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Krautso View Post
I'd say vinny's goal was Lappy's fault. He does great yeoman's work killing time in the other end then when the lightning break out, he stays with St. Louis all the way back up ice until he passes by the bench and just peels off leaving him free to gain the line, get the puck deep and dish to Vinny for an open look at the net.

Lappy needs to change when the puck is deep not while he's backchecking and the puck is entering our zone.
That's exactly what I thought. The second he skated to the bench after being out of gas, with St. Louis carrying it into the zone...I could already see that going in. Max is aweome, but bad bad bad change, you can't just get off in the middle of the play, you have to at least look like you're not going to fall out of exhaustion to not give the guy a clear lane to skate right into the zone. Two goals though (both deflections, however). Can't blame him to much, but objectively you're right about the play. Price does look a bit lost though. I'm tired of seeing him with his pinstripe cap and sleveless shirt with armband like he's out of an urban habswear calendar. Start caring instead of waiting for the next game (and i'm sure it won't be too long...i hope)

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01-27-2009, 10:15 PM
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Not to be a sour puss but haven't our goalies been in the top 5-10 in the league for the past 4 years?

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01-27-2009, 10:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCH View Post
Carey has been less then average since his return, and so has the defense. This has been a problem for the team for the past month. Halak was not the reason we were getting scored on so much..
The defense has given up what, 70 shots the last 3 games? This is the freaking NHL where goalies have to makes saves from time to time. The defense was fine tonight until we had to open it up in the 3rd and give up a SH goal. The 1st TB goal was on Plekanesh not the d-men.

I'm a huge Price fan, but he has not been on since his return. Made a few good saves but 3-4 questionable goals and poor rebound control

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01-27-2009, 10:18 PM
  #14
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Melanson is one of the top 3-4 goalie coaches in the NHL, he made Huet into an All-star after being a nobody in LA. Turned Theo into a Vezina and Hart winner, what has he done since? He got Price to the NHL at 20, for the most part he's been progressing very well. Halak is a late rounder and he turned him into a decent NHL goalie, at some point he'll be a starter on a weaker team.

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01-27-2009, 10:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
The defense has given up what, 70 shots the last 3 games? This is the freaking NHL where goalies have to makes saves from time to time. The defense was fine tonight until we had to open it up in the 3rd and give up a SH goal. The 1st TB goal was on Plekanesh not the d-men.

I'm a huge Price fan, but he has not been on since his return. Made a few good saves but 3-4 questionable goals and poor rebound control
Price hasn't been sharp at all. Even in the ASG, he let in 2 quite horrible goals.

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Old
01-27-2009, 10:24 PM
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Price hasn't been sharp at all. Even in the ASG, he let in 2 quite horrible goals.
I think he and/or the team rushed him back because Halak was struggling.

Where they dropped the ball was not giving Denis a start instead of giving Halak like 9 straight and then he got worn down...then they are forced tu rush CP back instead of playing a couple in Hamilton.

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01-27-2009, 10:38 PM
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Melanson is not assailable if you ask me. What he's done with goalies has been incredible. Look at Theodore after MTL, not better than he was at all in MTL. Look at Huet, not much better in Chicago, maybe a little below his performance in Habland. Garon is now on his third team in five years since we dealt him much to the chagrin of Pierre MacGuire I recall. The only guy he couldn't keep going strong was Theo but that was Theo's fault. Aebischer was a lost cause but even Danis seemed good with the Habs. If Halak leaves the Habs, odds are that he does not blossom from there. Now, as for skaters it appears we don't have a Melanson teaching them how to play effective hockey since a lot of our guys leave and find more success with newer surroundings.

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01-27-2009, 10:49 PM
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melanson made the team look pretty damn good last year. we aren't losing games because of goaltending.

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01-27-2009, 10:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Lefthanded View Post
Skost was to blame for not covering his man. Price went down playing the %, it was a perfect shot by Vinny who had all the time in the world to aim.

Actually Lapierre gets caught on a line change. Lang comes on behind the play leaving a 4 on 3 rush. S Kost covers St louis coming across the blueline forcing him towards the boards. Bouillon turns towards St Louis along the boards away from Lecavalier who is open for the pass and the score.

A lot of stuff went wrong there but it wasn't S Kost's fault

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01-27-2009, 11:01 PM
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Originally Posted by JrHockeyFan View Post
Actually Lapierre gets caught on a line change. Lang comes on behind the play leaving a 4 on 3 rush. S Kost covers St louis coming across the blueline forcing him towards the boards. Bouillon turns towards St Louis along the boards away from Lecavalier who is open for the pass and the score.

A lot of stuff went wrong there but it wasn't S Kost's fault
Thanks for clarifying. My hate for Skost tonight made me hallucinate then.

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01-27-2009, 11:16 PM
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I just want price to sign the new red pads and give the to a charity, let them have some bad luck. I have never seen so many bad bounces as these last 3 games. I am willing to let Halak go back in net at this point.

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01-27-2009, 11:20 PM
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Failed to score on a 5-3

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Old
01-27-2009, 11:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Blades 0f Steel View Post
Us old guys have to stick together, Asterix. You're probably in your 60's so you'd have a lot of experience to draw upon.

What years did you play, and where?
I am not in my 60's, nor am I in my 50's (quite yet). I played in Sherbrooke but I'd rather keep my identity hidden. Let's just say that I got to know Jimmy Mann and Richard Sévigny.

Quote:
Originally Posted by earl the habs fan View Post
Or everyone can relax and be patient, and realize that Price is not "a great talent" above taking lumps along the way, but rather a young first year starting goalie still figuring this league out.

The attitude towards Price in fandom is ridiculous, if people aren't making endless excuses for his understandable growing pains, or slagging his internal competition ( Huet) they're blaming the goaltender coach for his poor outings.

Time for people to wake up and realize Price is a development project, one that's far from over.
I think that you may have mis-interpreted my comment, and others definitely have. I fully understand that Price is very young and that there is a learning curve. My comment was NOT geared towards Price at all, but towards Melanson. As a matter of fact, I'm a huge Carey Price fan as I saw him play live and on TV during his junior career. Having said that, I do feel that his potential is being wasted in teaching him bad habits.

Also, the point wasn't to decide who's fault it was on Lecavalier's goal, we know that there was a mistake made prior to it. It's Price's reaction that was wrong. Not blaming him, but rather the "technique" of going down for nothing and too soon, which is what's being taught now days (I see it regularly even at the minor and junior level in practice). Someone rightfully brought up that the best position was up against his post as Vinny had no angle... good catch!

I see that this opinion is not shared widely and I was somewhat expecting that, hiding behind some false security due to the way our goalies have performed. I do dare say that they have done so in spite of Melanson instead of because of his coaching.

I also don't expect people to see what other goalies and/or goalie coaches will see. It doesn't make others lesser by any means, it's just a fact. Having said that, this is a hockey forum where everyone is an expert so I'll have to agree to disagree with those who see Melanson as a good or great coach.

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01-27-2009, 11:41 PM
  #24
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Failed to score on a 5-3
Thats why we lost. We didn't capitalize when the opportunity was given to us.

Whether or not Price had a bad game doesn't really matter because he's allowed to have bad games from time to time. Roy himself was far from perfect during the season. As long as he plays well most of the time and I believe he has. The problem is we have one of the best offences in the league and they're inconsistent. The first 6 games of the season we we're destroying teams and thats how we should be playing more often. Not many teams have the kind of offensive talent depth like we do but we're not playing like it. When the Lapierre line becomes your most consistent threat, there's a serious problem there.

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Old
01-28-2009, 12:06 AM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asterix View Post

Also, the point wasn't to decide who's fault it was on Lecavalier's goal, we know that there was a mistake made prior to it. It's Price's reaction that was wrong. Not blaming him, but rather the "technique" of going down for nothing and too soon, which is what's being taught now days (I see it regularly even at the minor and junior level in practice). Someone rightfully brought up that the best position was up against his post as Vinny had no angle... good catch!
You do know that Butterfly is pretty much all about that right?..

To be fair, I thought Vinny had a better angle than that at first, so I thought Price's move was fine, cuz being up against his post would have given Vinny the right side of the net. But as Carey rightly pointed one, Price should have being there instead, which would have absolutely nothing to do about the style Roland is teaching but rather a mental mistake by a sophomore goalie.

**** happens, get over it, Rolly has been doing a fine job. Is he to blame for Halak's rebound control as well?

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