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Game # 49 - 1/27/09 - New York Rangers VS. Carolina Hurricanes - 7:00 PM MSG (HD)

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01-28-2009, 10:37 AM
  #376
DontStepanMe
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Originally Posted by Levitate View Post
Except as I just pointed out, the idea is for the fourth line to go out and wear the other team down. Plus it doesn't always work along the lines of "they'll be on their heels". It's not so black and white.

Honestly I don't think the shift right after a goal is so important in terms of going for the kill or not. The vast majority of the time, you're not going to score no matter who you put out there.
You are right but still he does take the conservative route here, and it bit us in the butt last night, but most times it doesn't. I wish once in a while he would switch to an aggressive stance after a goal and see what happens. But I guess that's more of a personal preferance.

We won last night and that's all that counts, and I thought we played a solid game which is even more important.

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01-28-2009, 10:41 AM
  #377
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but see you just got momentum back by scoring. the opponent should be on its heels a little. Renney always goes conservative w/ the 4th line. I think it would be more effective putting out the top available line and go right back for more. But then again, i generally think in an aggressive manner and like more aggressive teams. I'm not sure which is more effective though, and if they are equally effective why not go for the gold and keep attacking.
more renney brilliance.

the 4th line should NOT get a regular shift. ever. and should NEVER EVER be out there with the game on the line, or in the closing minutes of a close game or immediately after we score. period. ever.

those 3 are our weakest offensive players certainly. i will agree that betts and freddie have been excellent all season on the pk, but thats not the same as taking an even strength shift with colton "snowplow" orr plodding around out there with his lobster claws. imo, colton should be stapled and super glued to the bench for the final 10 miniutes of the 3rd period in any close game where we need to score to tie or need to keep a 1 goal lead.

let betts and freddie get their minutes playing the majority of the pk's. but at even strength, i would skip that line frequently depending on the situation and cetainly right after we score. if we could keep them on their heels and attack after we score or better yet, get another goal right after we score, its game over. instead, tommy boy puts out his 3 WORST even strength players and the 4th line gives up a quickie and we bite our nails to the end.

again, we must lead the league in giving up goals right after we score. and which line is that do you think that gives up that goal ?

heres the most ******** stat of the year.

colton orr has played in EVERY GAME THIS SEASON.

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01-28-2009, 10:41 AM
  #378
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I guess I just don't see it as that big of a deal. I don't think Renney puts the fourth line out there with the idea of "ok, go play defense now!", I think he does it with the idea of "go outwork the other team for your shift and maybe knock some bodies around". But then we're really getting into guessing about Renney's motivations more than anything else.

I mean, I think it only bit the Rangers in the ass last night because Ruutu got lucky with his blocked shot squirting right out to where he could get another shot away.

I guess it's just not a big deal to me and I don't feel like it has that much of an effect on the game. Obviously that's not the only opinion out there, but it at least explains why I'm not upset when Renney puts that line out there.

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01-28-2009, 10:43 AM
  #379
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Originally Posted by Levitate View Post
Except as I just pointed out, the idea is for the fourth line to go out and wear the other team down. Plus it doesn't always work along the lines of "they'll be on their heels". It's not so black and white.

Honestly I don't think the shift right after a goal is so important in terms of going for the kill or not. The vast majority of the time, you're not going to score no matter who you put out there.



No, but there's a fire Renney thread you can go post in if you want to start that up
ok boss. where did i mention fire renney ? i said thats his system as in, he always plays not to lose from the opening face off.

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01-28-2009, 10:45 AM
  #380
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Originally Posted by Levitate View Post
Except as I just pointed out, the idea is for the fourth line to go out and wear the other team down. Plus it doesn't always work along the lines of "they'll be on their heels". It's not so black and white.

Honestly I don't think the shift right after a goal is so important in terms of going for the kill or not. The vast majority of the time, you're not going to score no matter who you put out there.
Will you score most of the time? No. But it's a question of establishing a dominating period and perhaps game, rather than being content with one goal and then fending off the other team. I want the line that just scored and has confidence/momentum (if they're not exhaused) or the first line (if the goal scoring line is exhausted) out there to keep up the pressure and establish the proverbial "tilted ice surface" that the other team can't recover from until the end of the period/game.

Betts/Sjostrom/Orr, DOESN'T wear the other team down. Most of the time the other team brings it into our zone and the fourth line scrambles to keep them to the outside - and if they do get it into the offensive zone, their lack of meaningful skill means that the other team only has to play basic, positionally sound defense and then they'll eventually get the puck back. Either way, for all intents and purposes putting them out there gives the other team a chance to catch their breath and bring the ice back to level grade.

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01-28-2009, 10:46 AM
  #381
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Originally Posted by BrooklynRangersFan View Post
Will you score most of the time? No. But it's a question of establishing a dominating period and perhaps game, rather than being content with one goal and then being content to fend off the other team. I want the line that just scored and has confidence/momentum (if they're not exhaused) or the first line (if they are) out there to keep up the pressure and establish the proverbial "tilted ice surface" that the other team can't recover from until the end of the period/game.

Betts/Sjostrom/Orr, DOESN'T wear the other team down. Most of the time the other team brings it into our zone and the fourth line scrambles to keep them to the outside - and if they do get it into the offensive zone, their lack of meaningful skill means that the other team only has to play basic, positionally sound defense and then they'll eventually get the puck back. Either way, for all intents and purposes putting them out there gives the other team a chance to catch their breath and bring the ice back to level grade.


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01-28-2009, 10:48 AM
  #382
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Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
more renney brilliance.

the 4th line should NOT get a regular shift. ever. and should NEVER EVER be out there with the game on the line, or in the closing minutes of a close game or immediately after we score. period. ever.

those 3 are our weakest offensive players certainly. i will agree that betts and freddie have been excellent all season on the pk, but thats not the same as taking an even strength shift with colton "snowplow" orr plodding around out there with his lobster claws. imo, colton should be stapled and super glued to the bench for the final 10 miniutes of the 3rd period in any close game where we need to score to tie or need to keep a 1 goal lead.

let betts and freddie get their minutes playing the majority of the pk's. but at even strength, i would skip that line frequently depending on the situation and cetainly right after we score. if we could keep them on their heels and attack after we score or better yet, get another goal right after we score, its game over. instead, tommy boy puts out his 3 WORST even strength players and the 4th line gives up a quickie and we bite our nails to the end.

again, we must lead the league in giving up goals right after we score. and which line is that do you think that gives up that goal ?

heres the most ******** stat of the year.

colton orr has played in EVERY GAME THIS SEASON.
Completely agreed.

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01-28-2009, 10:53 AM
  #383
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Originally Posted by Levitate View Post
I guess I just don't see it as that big of a deal. I don't think Renney puts the fourth line out there with the idea of "ok, go play defense now!", I think he does it with the idea of "go outwork the other team for your shift and maybe knock some bodies around". But then we're really getting into guessing about Renney's motivations more than anything else.
i see what your saying, and you could very well be right. It doesn't mean that I like it. But it does make sene as to what you are saying. But I just see it as more a conservative style that Renney displays. But who knows. And sometimes I don't mind it like if it was after a goal to give a three goal lead. But to go up two in the third, I would just like to have seen us use some more pressure. I think this could very well have backfired on us last night (and could also in the PO's).

Quote:
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I mean, I think it only bit the Rangers in the ass last night because Ruutu got lucky with his blocked shot squirting right out to where he could get another shot away.
he got very lucky that the puck just dropped straight down. but man that was a nice second shot. I'll give him props for that.

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01-28-2009, 10:55 AM
  #384
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Only Ranger fans will take nothing but negatives out of a win.

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01-28-2009, 10:56 AM
  #385
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Only Ranger fans will take nothing but negatives out of a win.
They won but they didnt win it the right way

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01-28-2009, 10:59 AM
  #386
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They won but they didnt win it the right way
I often think of the Rangers fan base as The Hawks from the first 'Mighty Ducks' movie. They have that absurd chant: "It's not worth winning if you can't win big."

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01-28-2009, 11:01 AM
  #387
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They won but they didnt win it the right way
They won in a way that will bite them in the ass in the long run, especially against better teams, and especially, especially (can I say that? ) in the playoffs.

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01-28-2009, 11:02 AM
  #388
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Originally Posted by Rags225 View Post
i see what your saying, and you could very well be right. It doesn't mean that I like it. But it does make sene as to what you are saying. But I just see it as more a conservative style that Renney displays. But who knows. And sometimes I don't mind it like if it was after a goal to give a three goal lead. But to go up two in the third, I would just like to have seen us use some more pressure. I think this could very well have backfired on us last night (and could also in the PO's).
Well, what if his plan was the put the 1st line out there after 30 seconds of the fourth line? What if they then go out and score? What if it's because the fourth line got the puck deep and worked it around?

Again, I don't think Renney really puts them out there with the idea that they need to go play defense and not let in a goal.

But a lot of this also comes down to how you feel about the fourth line. I'm fairly ambivalent about them in general...Betts and Sjostrom are good, solid players. Orr I can do without but I understand why Renney plays him so that the lineup has someone who can do some fighting. Most of the time the line does their job, so it's no big deal.

So, eh, yeah it's probably not as aggressive a strategy as it could be, but I don't think Renney is the only one in the league who does this (heck, sometimes other teams put out their fourth line after they get scored on, in an attempt to wake up their team or something).

And to the person who said the fourth line shouldn't get a regular shift, I don't think many teams in the NHL only play 3 lines these days Seems like everyone plays 4 lines for the most part. Playing 3 lines is a good way to wear out your best players too.

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01-28-2009, 11:04 AM
  #389
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Well, what if his plan was the put the 1st line out there after 30 seconds of the fourth line? What if they then go out and score? What if it's because the fourth line got the puck deep and worked it around?

Again, I don't think Renney really puts them out there with the idea that they need to go play defense and not let in a goal.

But a lot of this also comes down to how you feel about the fourth line. I'm fairly ambivalent about them in general...Betts and Sjostrom are good, solid players. Orr I can do without but I understand why Renney plays him so that the lineup has someone who can do some fighting. Most of the time the line does their job, so it's no big deal.

So, eh, yeah it's probably not as aggressive a strategy as it could be, but I don't think Renney is the only one in the league who does this (heck, sometimes other teams put out their fourth line after they get scored on, in an attempt to wake up their team or something).

And to the person who said the fourth line shouldn't get a regular shift, I don't think many teams in the NHL only play 3 lines these days Seems like everyone plays 4 lines for the most part. Playing 3 lines is a good way to wear out your best players too.
Not if the extra minutes go to the 2nd and 3rd lines.

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01-28-2009, 11:08 AM
  #390
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I'm still considering those the "better players", and putting more minutes on everyone's shoulders can wear them out in the long run.

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01-28-2009, 11:12 AM
  #391
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I'm still considering those the "better players", and putting more minutes on everyone's shoulders can wear them out in the long run.
First line: ~20 min TOI
Second line: ~18 min TOI
Third line: ~16 min TOI
Fourth line specialists: ~6 min TOI

Don't see anything wrong with that

Of course, the other option is to upgrade the talent on the fourth line so that it's more of a 3b, but I don't want to get into the Betts debate all over again, 'cause I know where that'll end up.

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01-28-2009, 11:23 AM
  #392
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Originally Posted by Levitate View Post
Well, what if his plan was the put the 1st line out there after 30 seconds of the fourth line? What if they then go out and score? What if it's because the fourth line got the puck deep and worked it around?

Again, I don't think Renney really puts them out there with the idea that they need to go play defense and not let in a goal.

But a lot of this also comes down to how you feel about the fourth line. I'm fairly ambivalent about them in general...Betts and Sjostrom are good, solid players. Orr I can do without but I understand why Renney plays him so that the lineup has someone who can do some fighting. Most of the time the line does their job, so it's no big deal.

So, eh, yeah it's probably not as aggressive a strategy as it could be, but I don't think Renney is the only one in the league who does this (heck, sometimes other teams put out their fourth line after they get scored on, in an attempt to wake up their team or something).

And to the person who said the fourth line shouldn't get a regular shift, I don't think many teams in the NHL only play 3 lines these days Seems like everyone plays 4 lines for the most part. Playing 3 lines is a good way to wear out your best players too.
ive been around this game my entire life. as a player, a coach, a hockey parent, etc. every single hockey team has a 4th line and that line plays the least. they are the weakest players. period. its not about playing 3 lines and tiring them out, its about coaching the team properly and playing them when you can and not playing them when you shouldnt. top 9 forwards play the most. top 6 even more. with special teams pp and pk, im not so sure these athletes will be that over worked or tired if you play the 4th line less at even strength.

the 4th line should get a regular shift when you are way ahead. early in games to roll 4 lines. or when you are way behind and the game is over.

4th line sit times are any close games in crunch time. end of periods. when you are behind or ahead by 1 goal. against the other teams top line. right after you score or give up a goal. last 5 minutes of tie or close game in the 3rd period.

in other words, play the 4th when its prudent. shorten the bench when you need to.

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01-28-2009, 11:28 AM
  #393
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Well, what if his plan was the put the 1st line out there after 30 seconds of the fourth line? What if they then go out and score? What if it's because the fourth line got the puck deep and worked it around?

Again, I don't think Renney really puts them out there with the idea that they need to go play defense and not let in a goal.
I said you might be right in this matter. and we don't know. It basically comes down to what style you like. I prefer a more aggressive style, while Renney is more conservative. Renneys the coach, and hes done a pretty decent job so far, but there is still room for improvement.

But this isn't about just this years teams, i remember people talking about this for a while about Renney. He's always done this.

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But a lot of this also comes down to how you feel about the fourth line. I'm fairly ambivalent about them in general...Betts and Sjostrom are good, solid players. Orr I can do without but I understand why Renney plays him so that the lineup has someone who can do some fighting. Most of the time the line does their job, so it's no big deal.
agreed on this.

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Originally Posted by Levitate View Post
So, eh, yeah it's probably not as aggressive a strategy as it could be, but I don't think Renney is the only one in the league who does this (heck, sometimes other teams put out their fourth line after they get scored on, in an attempt to wake up their team or something).

And to the person who said the fourth line shouldn't get a regular shift, I don't think many teams in the NHL only play 3 lines these days Seems like everyone plays 4 lines for the most part. Playing 3 lines is a good way to wear out your best players too.
agreed on all of this as well.

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01-28-2009, 11:31 AM
  #394
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OK, I think we're more or less on the same page really. I think of "regular shift" in a regular circumstance, not when you're behind by a goal and it's getting late, or whatever. And the regular rotation of lines tends to get screwed up by penalties as well.

Colton Orr doesn't tend to get a whole lot of icetime...usually between 4 and 8 minutes per night. Betts and Sjostrom get more, and I guess you can argue whether or not they should get as much as they do (probably average around 10). Since I think they're both generally good hockey players, it doesn't bother me too much.

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