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Captain Koivu & Captain Kovalev...who's the the real leader?

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Old
01-30-2009, 09:13 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by fredez View Post
Mediocre in almost every aspect? Lacks vision? Maybe you do?

Saku is probably the guy with the best on-ice vision on this team (you could make an argument for Markov). He anticipates plays and makes really great passes. How does Zednik score 30 goals with medicore passes? How does Jan Bulis score 20? D'agostini suddenly finds back his scoring touch when Saku comes back... Such mediocrity.
That's not true...there's several players on this team who have as good or even better vision than Koivu now, Markov, Kovalev, AK46, SK74, Tanguay...Koivu's skills have already begun erode, he's basically a non threat in shooting situations. That's not to say he can't be an effective player, because he is, he's still got a high hockey IQ and his work rate on the ice is usually pretty high.

Zednik and Bulis was a long time ago, at least in hockey years and Koivu's not any getting any younger.

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01-30-2009, 09:15 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by fredez View Post
Mediocre in almost every aspect? Lacks vision? Maybe you do?

Saku is probably the guy with the best on-ice vision on this team (you could make an argument for Markov). He anticipates plays and makes really great passes. How does Zednik score 30 goals with medicore passes? How does Jan Bulis score 20? D'agostini suddenly finds back his scoring touch when Saku comes back... Such mediocrity.
Tom-ato, To-mato

We both see the same thing differently. Maybe it's my neutral feeling towards Koivu, but I see koivu's talent far more negatively than you do.


Talent has to deal with leadership because if you really want to lead a team (any team, any sport) you have to pick it up and be good at it. Jason Smith on the Oilers was GREAT at just being steady and hitting like a truck, that's all he did and he did it well when he had to.

Koivu has no great talent, he's a sparkplug, he can't "turn it up" any further. So when you're down 2 goals with 10min to go, you can't put Koivu on and expect him to pressure effectively, or make the great play, or take a great shot. You can only hope that his line scores as if they naturally would. My point is that he isn't a gamebreaker because there isn't an aspect of his game that he is GREAT in. He is mediocre to above-average in almost everything. What is there to look up to when your leader is just a little bit better than you?

I would support Komisarek for captain or Lapierre for captain or (hopefully a last resort) Kovalev for captain because they all are 100% talented in a specific regard.

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01-30-2009, 09:24 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Funkiness View Post
Tom-ato, To-mato

We both see the same thing differently. Maybe it's my neutral feeling towards Koivu, but I see koivu's talent far more negatively than you do.


Talent has to deal with leadership because if you really want to lead a team (any team, any sport) you have to pick it up and be good at it. Jason Smith on the Oilers was GREAT at just being steady and hitting like a truck, that's all he did and he did it well when he had to.

Koivu has no great talent, he's a sparkplug, he can't "turn it up" any further. So when you're down 2 goals with 10min to go, you can't put Koivu on and expect him to pressure effectively, or make the great play, or take a great shot. You can only hope that his line scores as if they naturally would. My point is that he isn't a gamebreaker because there isn't an aspect of his game that he is GREAT in. He is mediocre to above-average in almost everything. What is there to look up to when your leader is just a little bit better than you?

I would support Komisarek for captain or Lapierre for captain or (hopefully a last resort) Kovalev for captain because they all are 100% talented in a specific regard.
Scott Mellanby was a great leader. Not good at anything specific.

I get the impression you get your version of leadership off of the big screen in Hollywood.

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01-30-2009, 09:29 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Andrei Kostopolous View Post
I get the impression you get your version of leadership off of the big screen in Hollywood.
No need for personal insults. I played Soccer for 6 years, captain for 3. I also captained several other teams in a variety of sports/games. In terms of leader there are two school that I noticed: Lead by example (great players) or Loud abrasive in-your-face leading. Both are good. Koivu is neither.

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01-30-2009, 09:42 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Funkiness View Post
No need for personal insults. I played Soccer for 6 years, captain for 3. I also captained several other teams in a variety of sports/games. In terms of leader there are two school that I noticed: Lead by example (great players) or Loud abrasive in-your-face leading. Both are good. Koivu is neither.
Meh. I'd imagine, having been captain for ten years, the players would have complained more often if he really wasn't a leader. Unfortunately, none of us can see what he does off the ice, but given even Grabovski complimented Koivu given his relative dislike of the Canadiens, I have a hard time believing he's a bad captain. Is he Jarome Iginla? No. Is he Mike Modano? No. Is he a good captain? Well, the players seem to think so, and that's good enough for me.

The only one worth making captain from your list was Komisarek, anyway. He also seems to fill in your description of what Koivu brings to the table; he's not a gamebreaking d-man, and he's not loud, abrasive, in-your-face player, given his relatively calm disposure and his use of the term 'sack of potatoes'. Yet he possess all the qualities to be a leader.

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01-30-2009, 10:20 PM
  #56
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Koivu is well respected by his teammates , Koivu gives the exemple on the ice and works hard . But seriously , a leader is more than someone who just gives " the good exemple " . To the limit , you can say that Koivu is an inspiration to put effort , but nothing more .

Koivu is like all these old pictures of Habs fames , on the wall of the Bell Center . They are all respected because of their contribution and for what they did . That's it , That's all .

But is he the guy to bring his team to another level ? is he the guy to keeps everybody going in the same direction ? is he the guy to find the words his teammates want to hear , betwen 2 periods ? Is he the guy able to change the momentum of the game in one shift ? Is he the guy the players want to play for ? NOT AT ALL .

Kovalev is far to be perfect , but when he's having the big role , he plays with passion and it seems that the other players follow him and that they play TOGETHER .

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01-30-2009, 10:40 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by 100th View Post
But is he the guy to bring his team to another level ? is he the guy to keeps everybody going in the same direction ? is he the guy to find the words his teammates want to hear , betwen 2 periods ? Is he the guy the players want to play for ? NOT AT ALL .
I was reading this and thinking the same should be asked about our coach.

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01-30-2009, 11:06 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Funkiness View Post
Tom-ato, To-mato

We both see the same thing differently. Maybe it's my neutral feeling towards Koivu, but I see koivu's talent far more negatively than you do.


Talent has to deal with leadership because if you really want to lead a team (any team, any sport) you have to pick it up and be good at it. Jason Smith on the Oilers was GREAT at just being steady and hitting like a truck, that's all he did and he did it well when he had to.

Koivu has no great talent, he's a sparkplug, he can't "turn it up" any further. So when you're down 2 goals with 10min to go, you can't put Koivu on and expect him to pressure effectively, or make the great play, or take a great shot. You can only hope that his line scores as if they naturally would. My point is that he isn't a gamebreaker because there isn't an aspect of his game that he is GREAT in. He is mediocre to above-average in almost everything. What is there to look up to when your leader is just a little bit better than you?

I would support Komisarek for captain or Lapierre for captain or (hopefully a last resort) Kovalev for captain because they all are 100% talented in a specific regard.
My god I read 3 lines and I've had enough already, you have no idea what Koivu means to the table. Any true hab fan that isn't biased knows this and I shouldn't have to explain.

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01-30-2009, 11:17 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by 100th View Post
Kovalev is far to be perfect , but when he's having the big role , he plays with passion and it seems that the other players follow him and that they play TOGETHER .
This is something I didn't see on a consistent basis, much like with Koivu. Kovalev with the C looks (to me, anyway) exactly the same as Kovalev without the C, both last season and this season. I didn't see him play any better or any worse, give or take, whenever he had the C on his jersey.

And I'd still be reluctant to give him the C on a full-time basis, anyway. Both Koivu and Kovalev have had one relatively bad year (by their standards) in the last three seasons, and we've seen their reactions, as well. One was befitting a captain, the other wasn't. Kovalev's a very good player when he's happy. But what about when he isn't? Will we get an '06-'07 all over again? I think it's great that he's playing well, and I love his recent activities (not sure the good word, participation maybe) in Montreal, but realistically, it's hard to see him as a captain full-time.

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01-30-2009, 11:23 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Next Best Thing View Post
My god I read 3 lines and I've had enough already, you have no idea what Koivu means to the table. Any true hab fan that isn't biased knows this and I shouldn't have to explain.


So basicaly , you think you've just proved everything without saying anything ?

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01-30-2009, 11:38 PM
  #61
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I was reading this and thinking the same should be asked about our coach.
Honestly people need to start questioning the players the leaders are trying to lead.

If i put Joe Sakic in a habs uniform, does Plekanec all of sudden role down the turtle neck and play like a man? Does Kovalev not disappear for games at a time? Do the Kostitsyn brothers all of sudden start playing with fire and passion? Does Higgins start playing with an edge and going to high traffic areas? Does Bouillon magically not turn over the puck. Does Breezy stop bailing out on checks and turning over the puck? We need to start questioning the players character too.

For every year the same people question leadership, management brings in players that have a history of not getting along with coaches or being inconsistent in effort or intensity. This team lacks leadership. Lets bring in Czerkawski, Audette, Tanguay, even Kovalev and Lang. With this team, we aren't talking guys who have had a great history being team players, raising intensity, banding together etc.

If i was gonna question leadership, i would also question the mix of players.

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01-30-2009, 11:49 PM
  #62
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Since Koivu has come back from his injury....we have been badly beaten.....Why?

Is there a leadership issue?....
Captain Koivu or Captain Kovalev?...who's the real leader?....
who ever is the leader they're not doing a very good job leading our young team...

I think we don't really have a clear cut captain who can put fire under our team and that is the real problem....

Maybe there is a power struggle between Koivu & Kovalev?....they both want to be captains and leaders....so who is the real voice in the dressing room for the young guys?

I think we are missing a leading voice...

If we had a clear cut leader who all our players respected and followed we would not be playing with such lack of character and determination to win. We would be alot more consistant every game.

Gainey and Carb need to quickly evaluate our teams leadership and captaincy and make the necessary moves to address the issue.

What do you guys think?....Do we have a leadership issue?.....Do me have strong leadership?.....Do we have a number 1 leader that is respected and can lead this team during highs and lows?



Is there a team chemistry issue?....
Koivu is the Captain, he has earned it with his game and leadership.

Kovalev loves the 'C' on his chest, but he doesn't deserve it because he lacks leadership with consistant play. Sure Koivu ain't great every night, but he doesn't seem to go missing or take nights off like Kovy.

This team doesn't have a Captain issue, there is an issue though I feel. Kovalev seems to really drop in his play when Koivu comes back and the 'C' leaves his chest.

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01-31-2009, 12:37 AM
  #63
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Well, if there's really an issue between those two guys I would say NONE of them.

Anyway, here's my take.

Komisarek is the vocal leader.

Koivu is the respected always playing 110% on-ice, effort leader.

Kovalev is the talented flying player that get his teammate confident when he gets going.

Price & Markov are those leaders who's quality of play makes the most difference between a win or a assbeating.
I remember an article from Les Canadiens the magazine in which Higgins said in an interview 2 seasons ago some along the lines of: "I was doing some bikes in the Gym (Ankle Injury) during one of the Leafs-Habs games into which we were badly outplayed, and between two periods I remember hearing Saku yelling at the boys in the lockerroom, boy was I glad not to be there. The following period, Koivu scored 2 goals to lead the Habs to victory."

Just saying.. Koivu can be vocal as well when things get ugly.

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01-31-2009, 01:56 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Next Best Thing View Post
My god I read 3 lines and I've had enough already, you have no idea what Koivu means to the table. Any true hab fan that isn't biased knows this and I shouldn't have to explain.
Listen man, spamming useless garbage like the quoted post just adds length to your post count, nothing else.

The poster above me mentions a Higgins interview from two years ago. I find that slightly hard to believe but lets disregard that.* When was the last time we remember Koivu turning the heat up and giving 110%?

*Found the games, either the Toronto Game or the Tampa Game. I was wrong.


Last edited by WhiskeySeven: 01-31-2009 at 02:04 AM.
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01-31-2009, 01:57 AM
  #65
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http://www.rds.ca/canadien/talkbacks/268105/381367.html

this guy is the leader of this team, and is probably Onesharpmarble

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01-31-2009, 01:58 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Funkiness View Post
Listen man, spamming useless garbage like the quoted post just adds length to your post count, nothing else.

The poster above me mentions a Higgins interview from two years ago. I find that slightly hard to believe but lets disregard that. When was the last time we remember Koivu turning the heat up and giving 110%?
in the god damn playoffs?

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01-31-2009, 02:19 AM
  #67
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How does anyone know what actually goes on in the dressing room?

Koivu doesn't have to prove anything anymore for his C on his jersey, there's a reason he's been wearing it for so long. I doubt anyone here knows more about hockey than Gainey or Carbs. If so please post your credentials.

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01-31-2009, 02:39 AM
  #68
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When was the last time we remember Koivu turning the heat up and giving 110%?
really?

thanks ckac/rds/110%.....keep repeating the same BS over and over again, and the sheep will start to believe it.

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01-31-2009, 02:50 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Funkiness View Post

When was the last time we remember Koivu turning the heat up and giving 110%?
In the PO and at the beginning of the season ?

In your definitions of captains, theres one missing imo, the grit/heart captain.
I think your best player doesnt necessarly have to be your captain, I want a heart and soul captain that ll give everything he has in the PO, and motivate and lead the way to all the other players, even if some are more talented than him.
That s Koivu.
That s Komi.
Not Kovy.
Imo

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01-31-2009, 03:28 AM
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.* When was the last time we remember Koivu turning the heat up and giving 110%?

I'm trying to think of the last time he didn't give 110% your dislike for Koivu has been pretty evident in each of your posts, I'm not sure how you can call yourself a fan and than claim Koivu is mediocre in every aspect of the game?

Kovalev has been with this team for 5 years now and he's had 1 great season and 4 mediocre ones maybe your labelling the two of them incorectly. If anybody on this team deserves to be called Mediocre is sure as hell isn't Koivu.

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01-31-2009, 04:08 AM
  #71
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how did i not see this thread coming
cant believe people are still questioning about this.

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01-31-2009, 06:06 AM
  #72
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Heres my piece of it.

Koivu missed two months with the team. In his absense, with Kovalev as a captain, it seems team chemistry fell apart couple weeks ago and BEFORE Koivu got back. Havent been in their lockerroom ... but just by looking at the results team and Kovalev himself has had.

Koivu is a leader but he needs more time. Saku has been back for just three games now, rusty and with limited ice time. When you're leader mostly on the ice thats not much.... certainly not enough to blame him.

Someone mentioned russian players needing to have their ego stroked. There may be some exceptions to that, but mostly I agree. But how can you motivate Kovalev if being chosen MVP at ASG isnt doing it for him?

Anyhow, I'm just hoping all this is because of All-Stars game messing up our key players, and others coming back rusty ... every streak ends some day.

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01-31-2009, 06:09 AM
  #73
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We need a leader who will step up and kick some ass in the locker room. Don't think either of them can do it.

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01-31-2009, 07:22 AM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Funkiness View Post
Tom-ato, To-mato

We both see the same thing differently. Maybe it's my neutral feeling towards Koivu, but I see koivu's talent far more negatively than you do.


Talent has to deal with leadership because if you really want to lead a team (any team, any sport) you have to pick it up and be good at it. Jason Smith on the Oilers was GREAT at just being steady and hitting like a truck, that's all he did and he did it well when he had to.

Koivu has no great talent, he's a sparkplug, he can't "turn it up" any further. So when you're down 2 goals with 10min to go, you can't put Koivu on and expect him to pressure effectively, or make the great play, or take a great shot. You can only hope that his line scores as if they naturally would. My point is that he isn't a gamebreaker because there isn't an aspect of his game that he is GREAT in. He is mediocre to above-average in almost everything. What is there to look up to when your leader is just a little bit better than you?

I would support Komisarek for captain or Lapierre for captain or (hopefully a last resort) Kovalev for captain because they all are 100% talented in a specific regard.
Actually, search a little in your memory (he wont now, he's clearly not 100% yet anyway)... time and time again he makes play to tie a game or get the GWG, and not once he did it with fancy plays, all drive, all will, all heart... I'll take that - any day of the week - over a guy with all the talent in the world who MIGHT file like trying out.

if this team had more Koivu... NO ONE here would be talking about (lack of) heart, desire, drive, etc... no one.



Please, be serious for a second, a 4th liner with a C...

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01-31-2009, 09:45 AM
  #75
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I think Kovalev is the real captain and he deserve the C on his jersey. Koivu was the captain for the past 9 years and we never play on a conference championship. If we want to make it to the final round or win the cup...well we must try something new and give the C to Kovalev right now, not next year, NOW. If Koivu dont want to play anymore with the Canadiens, well trade him for a pick. I have nothing against Koivu, he's a good player, a courageous and generous man...but to win the cup you need more thant that. You need a guy like Kovy to lead this team, you need someone more imposing than Koivu, not only a silent leader...

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