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Old
02-02-2009, 08:46 PM
  #1
Bobby G
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In Defence of Bob

http://habsinsideout.com/otherwing/j-t/14857

I think a lot of people around here would do well to read this thoughtful writeup.


Last edited by Habs10Habs: 02-02-2009 at 09:56 PM. Reason: Thanks for the link, but in the future. Please don't quote the whole article.
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Old
02-02-2009, 08:51 PM
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Thats an awesome read.

Its amazing how some people easily forget.

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Old
02-02-2009, 09:01 PM
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GoodKiwi
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Great read.

To be fair not many here have been blaming Bob Gainey. Just as it said in the quote - he gambled and lost. It happens. Tighten your seat belts and see what's left in the tank for this team.

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Old
02-02-2009, 09:05 PM
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WhiskeySeven
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I'm no BG basher but you do not leave the table as soon as your cards don't end up as you planned.

If his off-season moves failed, he should make some more during the season.

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02-02-2009, 09:07 PM
  #5
GoodKiwi
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Originally Posted by Funkiness View Post
If his off-season moves failed, he should make some more during the season.
Fine, but with us needing help on C and D would you:

a) try not to handicap our future much and get a couple of plugs to help

b) reach deep into our prospect pool and draft picks to get that superstar


Which one would be you, because I see a problem with both choices.

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02-02-2009, 09:10 PM
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Schooner Guy
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Originally Posted by P1x44r View Post
Fine, but with us needing help on C and D would you:

a) try not to handicap our future much and get a couple of plugs to help

b) reach deep into our prospect pool and draft picks to get that superstar


Which one would be you, because I see a problem with both choices.
I'm hoping we punt. Trade some of our spare part UFA's at the deadline and see how far the kids can take us in the playoffs.

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02-02-2009, 09:15 PM
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Gainey has said straight out that he wants another defenseman, i have no doubts that this is still what he will try and do.

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02-02-2009, 09:15 PM
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Well, based on Kovalev's career with the Canadiens he tends to go one good year, than bad. But Gainey deserves a pass on that one. It's still early to write off this year - we're 6th, trading away assets for prospects while in a playoff position will never ever happen.

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02-02-2009, 09:16 PM
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good read ! thanks ...

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Old
02-02-2009, 09:17 PM
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GoodKiwi
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Originally Posted by Schooner Guy View Post
I'm hoping we punt. Trade some of our spare part UFA's at the deadline and see how far the kids can take us in the playoffs.
I agree with this.

And I do not mean that we should sell off every single one of our impending UFAs. But maybe we can try to swap one for another, whether it'd be directly or indirectly. This way we can lose a winger and acquire some decent help on defense maybe.

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02-02-2009, 09:21 PM
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Whitesnake
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I just believe you don't fill the toughness role with one guy, an enforcer, who has every trouble to play a regular shift, on a team coached by a guy who believes in rolling his 4 lines. An enforcer that was already hurt and already had chronic back problems already, a guy signed for 3 years. I know the "overall toughness" of the team has been brought up as far as having a team more build for playoffs, and it's not by acquiring Tanguay, that the Flames didn't need especially for that reason, that it filled a need.

People do have a short memory.....can they remember how we were pissed about how Tanguay was non-existant in most games prior to his injury?

Sure Gainey could not have predicted a lot of things that had happened and it's not entirely his fault. I just can't believe that it's always everybody's fault BUT him. He wanted to have 3 offensive lines that would scare the other teams? Fine. But that wasn't without any risks. You take a risk when if you have a top 9 build on players that need numbers to have a great contract at the end of the year, they would all want more icetime in order to do so. It could have been predicted that Kovalev would not have had the year he had last year....'cause that's what he has been doing for his entire career. Then, while people were expecting rookies to be better in their 2nd season....how about the sophomore slump? Doesn't that exist for some players as well? Again, not saying it's ENTIRELY his fault....but he's part of the team and need to take the heat as well.

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02-02-2009, 09:21 PM
  #12
Schooner Guy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by P1x44r View Post
I agree with this.

And I do not mean that we should sell off every single one of our impending UFAs. But maybe we can try to swap one for another, whether it'd be directly or indirectly. This way we can lose a winger and acquire some decent help on defense maybe.
I'm thinking of guys like Begin and Dandy (when he gets back). Even if we get a few 4th and 5th rounders and let Timmins work his magic at the draft table.

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02-02-2009, 09:26 PM
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Gainey's greatest flaw may be the faith he shows in Carbonneau. He fired Julien in order to promise the coaching position to Carbon Emission. Now Julien has gotten the Bruins to play much tighter defense than the Habs AND has revived Michael Ryder, something Mr. Broken Nose failed to do.

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02-02-2009, 09:29 PM
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Bill McNeal
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
I just believe you don't fill the toughness role with one guy, an enforcer, who has every trouble to play a regular shift, on a team coached by a guy who believes in rolling his 4 lines. An enforcer that was already hurt and already had chronic back problems already, a guy signed for 3 years. I know the "overall toughness" of the team has been brought up as far as having a team more build for playoffs, and it's not by acquiring Tanguay, that the Flames didn't need especially for that reason, that it filled a need.

People do have a short memory.....can they remember how we were pissed about how Tanguay was non-existant in most games prior to his injury?

Sure Gainey could not have predicted a lot of things that had happened and it's not entirely his fault. I just can't believe that it's always everybody's fault BUT him. He wanted to have 3 offensive lines that would scare the other teams? Fine. But that wasn't without any risks. You take a risk when if you have a top 9 build on players that need numbers to have a great contract at the end of the year, they would all want more icetime in order to do so. It could have been predicted that Kovalev would not have had the year he had last year....'cause that's what he has been doing for his entire career. Then, while people were expecting rookies to be better in their 2nd season....how about the sophomore slump? Doesn't that exist for some players as well? Again, not saying it's ENTIRELY his fault....but he's part of the team and need to take the heat as well.
Agreed.

The crux of the op-ed seems to be that us fans didn't see this coming, so how could Gainey?

He may not be responsible for all the woes the team is facing right now, but I think we can hold him to a higher standard than the fans.

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Old
02-02-2009, 09:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
Gainey's greatest flaw may be the faith he shows in Carbonneau. He fired Julien in order to promise the coaching position to Carbon Emission. Now Julien has gotten the Bruins to play much tighter defense than the Habs AND has revived Michael Ryder, something Mr. Broken Nose failed to do.
and I suppose that our 1000 games or so of missed games and our players slumping and that Kovalev has came back to his true self compared to all the bruins young guys breaking out with their veteran goaltenders doing more than the job is all Julien's work and that the latter is all because of Carbo?


Last edited by Habs10Habs: 02-02-2009 at 09:57 PM. Reason: Play nice.
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Old
02-02-2009, 09:31 PM
  #16
GoodKiwi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
I just believe you don't fill the toughness role with one guy, an enforcer, who has every trouble to play a regular shift, on a team coached by a guy who believes in rolling his 4 lines. An enforcer that was already hurt and already had chronic back problems already, a guy signed for 3 years. I know the "overall toughness" of the team has been brought up as far as having a team more build for playoffs, and it's not by acquiring Tanguay, that the Flames didn't need especially for that reason, that it filled a need.

People do have a short memory.....can they remember how we were pissed about how Tanguay was non-existant in most games prior to his injury?

Sure Gainey could not have predicted a lot of things that had happened and it's not entirely his fault. I just can't believe that it's always everybody's fault BUT him. He wanted to have 3 offensive lines that would scare the other teams? Fine. But that wasn't without any risks. You take a risk when if you have a top 9 build on players that need numbers to have a great contract at the end of the year, they would all want more icetime in order to do so. It could have been predicted that Kovalev would not have had the year he had last year....'cause that's what he has been doing for his entire career. Then, while people were expecting rookies to be better in their 2nd season....how about the sophomore slump? Doesn't that exist for some players as well? Again, not saying it's ENTIRELY his fault....but he's part of the team and need to take the heat as well.
Those are some good points, but it wouldn't be easy to change the skeleton of our entire team and make it look tough and gritty. We already had too many pieces of fast and skilled squad and it worked the season before, so it is only logical than Gainey tried to improve on that instead of looking for something else that might not have been easy or even achievable with last summer's UFA pool and/or available trades.

But I completely agree with your point about one enforcer not making a team tough. It's like trying to wrap a brick of butter in sheet of aluminum foil. Sure might look like metal on the outside, but still very soft on the inside.

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Old
02-02-2009, 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Iwishihadacup View Post
and I suppose that our 1000 games or so of missed games and our players slumping and that Kovalev has came back to his true self compared to all the bruins young guys breaking out with their veteran goaltenders doing more than the job is all Julien's work and that the latter is all because of Carbo?
Please, have you seen Sundays game? Have you seen that defensive, that machine-like system? It ate us alive, had us run around like headless chicken, capitalized and feasted on our few mistakes and did not give us an inch. Did you ever feel like we had a chance when we got down by one? Personally, I did not. You have to attribute at least some of it to Julien.


Last edited by Habs10Habs: 02-02-2009 at 09:57 PM. Reason: Edited quoted post.
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02-02-2009, 09:40 PM
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Iwishihadacup
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Originally Posted by P1x44r View Post
Please, have you seen Sundays game? Have you seen that defensive, that machine-like system? It ate us alive, had us run around like headless chicken, capitalized and feasted on our few mistakes and did not give us an inch. Did you ever feel like we had a chance when we got down by one? Personally, I did not. You have to attribute at least some of it to Julien.
i never said the opposite, but his post clearly supposed that carbo is the only reason why the team is struggling and that, even if the young guys like Kessel, Krejci, Wheeler, Lucic, Wideman and Hunwick are all breaking out at the same time, Julien could have a team full of Yelle and Smolinsky and turn them into contenders

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Old
02-02-2009, 09:46 PM
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GoodKiwi
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Originally Posted by Iwishihadacup View Post
i never said the opposite, but his post clearly supposed that carbo is the only reason why the team is struggling and that, even if the young guys like Kessel, Krejci, Wheeler, Lucic, Wideman and Hunwick are all breaking out at the same time, Julien could have a team full of Yelle and Smolinsky and turn them into contenders
It's true, but what's impressive about Boston is not the fact that they've scored close the most goals in the league, they've also allowed the least. Now that's the most impressive feat to me, because I know that no one is born a defensive specialist, but with good coaching young talented forward could all learn how to be effective at coming back to help their defence. And this clearly had Julien's stamp on it in my opinion.

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02-02-2009, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by P1x44r View Post
Please, have you seen Sundays game? Have you seen that defensive, that machine-like system? It ate us alive, had us run around like headless chicken, capitalized and feasted on our few mistakes and did not give us an inch. Did you ever feel like we had a chance when we got down by one? Personally, I did not. You have to attribute at least some of it to Julien.


A machine.


That's the feeling Detroit gave me last year.


.

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02-02-2009, 09:51 PM
  #21
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Originally Posted by TheCH View Post
Gainey has said straight out that he wants another defenseman, i have no doubts that this is still what he will try and do.
This is best place to start, and hope Gainey addresses this first.

The forwards - I think about 6 of them are good - the rest really are throwaways.

Lets be realistic - if we want to complete with the Bostons (man my head hurts saying that!) Detroits / San Joses we need a fresh infusion of young FAST talent up front.

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02-02-2009, 09:52 PM
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Originally Posted by P1x44r View Post
It's true, but what's impressive about Boston is not the fact that they've scored close the most goals in the league, they've also allowed the least. Now that's the most impressive feat to me, because I know that no one is born a defensive specialist, but with good coaching young talented forward could all learn how to be effective at coming back to help their defence. And this clearly had Julien's stamp on it in my opinion.
It's mostly goaltending tho. Boston is actually pretty unremarkable at shot prevention. They'd be a bit more sensible if Tim Thomas wasn't pretending he was Ken Dryden.

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02-02-2009, 09:55 PM
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It's mostly goaltending tho. Boston is actually pretty unremarkable at shot prevention. They'd be a bit more sensible if Tim Thomas wasn't pretending he was Ken Dryden.
You might be right and I don't want to dispute your point, but when both goalies (cause Manny's stats are as good) go on a tear along with most of their top forwards and defense, what is that then - a year of destiny?

It's too easy for me to attribute it all to everyone "breaking out" at once, just difficult.

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02-02-2009, 10:10 PM
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You might be right and I don't want to dispute your point, but when both goalies (cause Manny's stats are as good) go on a tear along with most of their top forwards and defense, what is that then - a year of destiny?
I'm sure Boston's defense isn't a stranger to their goalie's excellent save percentage. But still.

And maybe it is a year of destiny -- dominate this badly all season long and collapse ignominously in the first round?

Destiny can be weird. See the Patriots last year.

Quote:
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It's too easy for me to attribute it all to everyone "breaking out" at once, just difficult.
That's what's really baffling, everyone on that team is having a career season. This is something Julien has never been able to achieve at any of his previous coaching stops, so I doubt that it is him. It could be good timing, or it could just be coincidence.

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02-03-2009, 03:22 AM
  #25
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Disagree with the crux of the article... to me it reads more like weak excuses than rational justification... all teams suffer injuries. If he is to be applauded as a genius when the team overachieves in a miraculously injury-free season, he deserves to be held just as responsible if it under achieves in a year where injuries are a factor.

The problem isn't so much about where the team is right now, or even where it looks to be heading, the problem is how the team has played all season.

the seemingly obvious holes in our lineup/with our team play are, imo, a direct reflection of the moves Gainey has/hasn't made over the past few seasons, leaving us with the roster we have, injuries or not.

We lack overall grit/heart/toughness:

- as one poster pointed out, signing 1 enforcer, at a huge cap hit for a 4th line guy, does not= improving team toughness. if he really thought pleks/kost jr/lang/tanguay ect would start playing more physical just because BGL was there to win a fight against some other 4th line scrub, he was sadly mistaken... besides, the opposition players that we need to match toughneess with are exactly the players BGL refuses to go after per the "code".


We lack a physical presence in our top 9

- adding the likes of Tanguay/Lang, to an already skilled team (tops in the league in goals scored without them) that lacks on the physical side of things strikes me as a redundant move, not exactly what you call shoring up your weaknesses

- fact is, from a talent evaluation pov, Gainey dropped the ball. The team played just as well with and without Tanguay in the lineup... I'd argue that Max Pac has been, in some ways, more useful to the team as a top 9 LWer... While I was as happy as the next guy- though not without eservations for precisely the "redundancy" concerns- to hear about the Tanguay trade (cuz let's face it, im a fan and he's the most talented player we've added to the team since Kovalev... ok maybe Hamrlik, but offense is more flashy), from an organizational POV, we'd have been much better off keeping our picks and leaving room open for a Max Pac or d'ago to make the team in Tcamp, not too mention having more assets to dangle in-season to address whatever needs might arise due to performance/injuries.


PP issues/need for an offensive dman

-it may be a dead horse, but Gainey's unwillingness/aversion to work out contract extensions in-season cost us Streit at a very reasonable cap hit (not the big contract # he got in the offseason).
Again it reaks of stubborness and a failure at the talent evaluation level. Streit had/has obvious defeciencies in his own end (so did souray), but he did contribute in a big way to the teams success, and Gainey did ZERO to replace the element that he brought to the table (namely PP contribution from the back-end). The guy loved being in
montreal, was ready and willing to sign a deal that would have pretty accurately matched his contributions, and Gainey didn't budge. It's a mistake, one I'm sure he acknowledges to himself.




In the end, Gainey certainly did "place his bets". He was active in the offseason trying to improve the roster, no doubt about that.
But even though Lang was contributing well (on pace for roughly what he could be expected to do, ~60 points), and Tanguay was also on pace or about what he put up last year (but not on pace for the #'s you'd expect from a guy who has had 80 seasons, back playing on an offensive minded team), I felt in September about as I feel now about the moves... optimistic but fully aware that we were still not built like a successful playoff team.

I was hopeful that guys like Pleks/Higgins/Kost jr/kost/lats could build on last year, but knowing that at least a few of them might struggle or regress a little (no way to know then that none would improve on last year... talk about bad timing)

In the end, our biggest shot at post-season glory is, as it was last year, all to dependent on a very talented but very young goaltender.

flash back to last years deadline, and Gainey's B.S attempt to force feed the kool-aid by claiming that he thought he HAD improved the team... couldn't we see it, he had just added the best player and best goalie in the AHL to the team... obviously that would make us better down the stretch and in the post-season ()...

...then to the offseason and his comments about BGL and how his presence would help the rest of the team play bigger()...

...then to the additions of Lang and Tanguay, and how we would run 3 scoring lines, yet someone forgot to inform Carbo that Kosto/Begin are not what most GM's would consider scoring line material ()...

... then to his comments about the in-season negotiation issue not being a firm policy, just a preference, but that he considers each situation on it's own, meanwhile we watch other clubs lock-up young franchise cornerstones to reasonable deals (getzlaf, carter, richards, burns, staal etc) while we wait till the offseason holding our breath (komi), or worse watch a part of our team drown (pp) when we cant match the inflated UFA market (streit) ()...


I love the habs.
I'll support the team through thick and thin
But mistakes are mistakes, and results speak for themselves. Until Gainey assembles a team that can string together more than 1 playoff series in a row, his tenure as GM is fail in my books, no matter how highly touted the prospect pool is... 6 years is past the point of reasonable patience, imo.

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