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Does Mike Green deserve to win the Norris?

View Poll Results: Does Mike Green Deserve to win the Norris?
Yes, and I'm NOT a Caps fan 36 15.32%
No, and I'm NOT a Caps fan 150 63.83%
Yes, and I'm a Caps fan 14 5.96%
No, and I'm a Caps fan 35 14.89%
Voters: 235. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
02-04-2009, 01:27 AM
  #26
massivegoonery
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Chara will win the Norris, Keith deserves to win the Norris and Green will be around 5th.

I don't know why people have been calling out Weber's name in these threads, he's really not playing all that well.

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02-04-2009, 07:11 AM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by massivegoonery View Post
Chara will win the Norris, Keith deserves to win the Norris and Green will be around 5th.

I don't know why people have been calling out Weber's name in these threads, he's really not playing all that well.
And I can think of a few who deserve to be ahead of Green behind Keith too.

As for Weber, he had a quick start that sputtered out after 23 games, but the NHL news networks did a piece on him and his Norris potential, and all the sheep have not realized that his next 23 games were subpar. People just remember the news piece and do not realize just how bad Weber has been since then.

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02-04-2009, 08:32 AM
  #28
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Nope

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02-04-2009, 08:48 AM
  #29
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No, and I'm a Caps fan

But he should be a top 3 finalist. Last year he was 7th in voting, and he's done significantly better this year.

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Old
02-04-2009, 12:43 PM
  #30
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mike green is dreamy

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Old
02-04-2009, 01:19 PM
  #31
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As of now, no. But if he ends up with 70ish points, and is 10+ points clear of every other defenseman, while having a +35ish rating, he very well may.

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02-04-2009, 01:44 PM
  #32
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To the 19 folks that voted yes... do you seriously believe that he's the best defender in the world?

Are you friggin kidding me? He's basicly a fourth forward. Playing with Ovy, Fedorov, Bäckström, Semin etc. will give anyone a solid +/-.

He's not even top-100 defensively.

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02-04-2009, 02:23 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordic View Post
To the 19 folks that voted yes... do you seriously believe that he's the best defender in the world?

Are you friggin kidding me? He's basicly a fourth forward. Playing with Ovy, Fedorov, Bäckström, Semin etc. will give anyone a solid +/-.

He's not even top-100 defensively.

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Old
02-04-2009, 02:27 PM
  #34
Michael Scofield
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best offensive d-man, but if he improves in his own end which he will, he is a legit candidate in the future. i hate all this '4th forward' crap, he is more then capable defensively, just not at Norris winning standard.

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Old
02-04-2009, 03:37 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordic View Post
To the 19 folks that voted yes... do you seriously believe that he's the best defender in the world?

Are you friggin kidding me? He's basicly a fourth forward. Playing with Ovy, Fedorov, Bäckström, Semin etc. will give anyone a solid +/-.

He's not even top-100 defensively.
It's not about being the best defender it's about being a consistent point producer while not being a black hole defensively. While I think Chara or Lidstrom will likely win, Green IS elite and will win sooner or later.

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Old
02-04-2009, 03:52 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordic View Post
To the 19 folks that voted yes... do you seriously believe that he's the best defender in the world?

Are you friggin kidding me? He's basicly a fourth forward. Playing with Ovy, Fedorov, Bäckström, Semin etc. will give anyone a solid +/-.

He's not even top-100 defensively.
The Norris is for the best overall defenseman, not the best defensive defenseman or the best offensive defenseman. A player can be somewhat deficient in either area so long as the other [more than] makes up for it.

You may recall that Paul Coffey won three Norris trophies, despite the fact that he was never that great defensively.

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02-04-2009, 04:13 PM
  #37
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Can you make a case for him? I don't know, perhaps. He's better defensively than most will give him credit for. However, Chara and Boyle are both proven Norris candidates & are both having outstanding seasons. I'd give it to either of them before I gave it to Green. Chara does everything and it's no coincidence that Boyle's arrival corresponded with such a great start for SJ.

Heh, notice how to a T most Caps fans are saying "no." I suppose we would know best, and most agree that he's not quite on that level just yet. However, if he were a liability defensively, he wouldn't be playing 28+ minutes with regularity.

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Old
02-04-2009, 04:13 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordic View Post
To the 19 folks that voted yes... do you seriously believe that he's the best defender in the world?

Are you friggin kidding me? He's basicly a fourth forward. Playing with Ovy, Fedorov, Bäckström, Semin etc. will give anyone a solid +/-.

He's not even top-100 defensively.
You're clueless.

That's being polite.

He plays close to 30 minutes on some nights and is already solid defensively at age TWENTY-THREE.

His offensive ability is unmatched.

A lot of people are going to have egg on their face trying to pigeon-hole the kid after what was essentially his 1st year as a starting defenseman (last year).

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Old
02-04-2009, 04:20 PM
  #39
Hot Carlson
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God I hope not. He is going to destroy the caps salary structure.
How exactly is that? He's an absolute steal at 5.25m (for the next 3) and I'd wager a guess that he'd be willing to take a page from Zetterberg and give the Caps a hometown discount. He's already shown his commitment to this team when he declined to test the market for offer sheets, instead agreeing to a deal shortly before the FA period began.

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Old
02-04-2009, 04:28 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by EroCaps View Post
You're clueless.

That's being polite.

He plays close to 30 minutes on some nights and is already solid defensively at age TWENTY-THREE.

His offensive ability is unmatched.

A lot of people are going to have egg on their face trying to pigeon-hole the kid after what was essentially his 1st year as a starting defenseman (last year).
I never understood why people threw ice time out there as something that makes a player godly. What if those 30 minutes were full of mistakes? The ice time in itself means absolutely nothing.

He's not solid defensively, not by any strecth of the imagination. He gets beat both positionally and physically over and over again. His speed somewhat makes up for his shortcomings but he's not solid defensively.

He's young and I bet he'll be an outstanding defenceman in the future. Right now he's basicly a poor mans Coffey. That's not a bad thing, he's already top-3 offensively, but he shouldn't be considered for the Norris at this point.

Let's be honest, on another team he wouldn't have either the +/- or the points.

And I really like the guy, he plays a flashy game that really speaks to me.

But Norris material..

No.

Just

no.

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Old
02-04-2009, 04:57 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordic View Post
I never understood why people threw ice time out there as something that makes a player godly. What if those 30 minutes were full of mistakes? The ice time in itself means absolutely nothing.

He's not solid defensively, not by any strecth of the imagination. He gets beat both positionally and physically over and over again. His speed somewhat makes up for his shortcomings but he's not solid defensively.

He's young and I bet he'll be an outstanding defenceman in the future. Right now he's basicly a poor mans Coffey. That's not a bad thing, he's already top-3 offensively, but he shouldn't be considered for the Norris at this point.

Let's be honest, on another team he wouldn't have either the +/- or the points.

And I really like the guy, he plays a flashy game that really speaks to me.

But Norris material..

No.

Just

no.
This entire post is just false and full of misnomers.

Top 3 offensive defenseman? How about he's first in points and goals since Boudreau took over in Washington over a year ago.

Which is- Hello- the only reason we're even having this discussion.

Half of his points are on the PP and he plays for the worst defensive playoff team in the East right now, yet manages a very good +/-. He's been in front of shaky goaltending. He's currently paired with John Erskine. If anything, the argument is he'd have better +/- on another team.

The TOI is a sign his coach trusts him or else he'd be a PP player, 4th forward, i.e (situational defender).

As far as getting beat physically, that's not his game. It wasn't Leetch's and it's not Scott Neidermeyer's either. They both won the award and were recognized for being good defensemen.

Green is already good in his own end and going to get better.

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Old
02-04-2009, 05:06 PM
  #42
Hot Carlson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordic View Post
I never understood why people threw ice time out there as something that makes a player godly. What if those 30 minutes were full of mistakes? The ice time in itself means absolutely nothing.

He's not solid defensively, not by any strecth of the imagination. He gets beat both positionally and physically over and over again. His speed somewhat makes up for his shortcomings but he's not solid defensively.

He's young and I bet he'll be an outstanding defenceman in the future. Right now he's basicly a poor mans Coffey. That's not a bad thing, he's already top-3 offensively, but he shouldn't be considered for the Norris at this point.

Let's be honest, on another team he wouldn't have either the +/- or the points.

And I really like the guy, he plays a flashy game that really speaks to me.

But Norris material..

No.

Just

no.
How about some relevant numbers, then?

Quote:
Zdeno Chara. Chris Pronger. Scott Niedermayer. Nicklas Lidstrom. Shea Weber. Jay Bouwmeester. Duncan Keith. Brian Campbell. Dion Phaneuf. Kimmo Timonen. Andrei Markov. Dan Boyle. Aside from being a who’s who of elite NHL defensemen, what do these players have in common? Every single one of them has been on the ice for more even-strength goals per game than Mike Green.

In 38 games, playing over 25:35 per game (10th in the NHL) Mike Green has only been on the ice for 23 even strength goals against. That’s good for a 0.6 goals against per game (23 / 38 = 0.6).

By comparison, at a GA/G of 1.2 (57 goals against in 48 games), 2008 Norris finalist Dion Phaneuf is literally twice as prone to being on the ice when a 5-on-5 goal is scored against his team compared to Mike Green.
You can't play the "he plays on a line with Ovechkin" card. Chara plays with Kessel and Savard, yes? Lidstrom with Datsyuk and Zetterberg, no? I think it's simply fashionable to hate on his defensive game.

I suppose you could call me a bit of a homer, but the numbers are interesting.


Last edited by Hot Carlson: 02-04-2009 at 05:13 PM.
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Old
02-04-2009, 05:23 PM
  #43
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Chara is a beast... Chara is the Norris winner right now, hands down... Green is close, but I don't think he is there yet, its gotta go to Chara, he means so much to his team, shuts down the best players consistently

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02-04-2009, 07:06 PM
  #44
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Green isn't sent out to shut the opponents best line down, that's what guys like Lidstrom, Chara and Pronger have to do every night.

I guess I have a whole other idea of the meaning of "best defender".


To be truly dominant as a defender, you have to be rock solid defensively aswell as offensively.

If either one is enough, Willie Mitchell should have as good a chance to win as Green.


Last edited by Nordic*: 02-04-2009 at 07:13 PM.
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Old
02-04-2009, 07:23 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordic View Post
Green isn't sent out to shut the opponents best line down, that's what guys like Lidstrom, Chara and Pronger have to do every night.
I guess I have a whole other idea of the meaning of "best defender".

To be truly dominant as a defender, you have to be rock solid defensively aswell as offensively.

If either one is enough, Willie Mitchell should have as good a chance to win as Green.
Nah Green plays 26 min a night against 4th liners. But you should have known that already you know everything about Green.

And Willie Mitchell would have to have a Langway type season to win the Norris as a shutdown D. They don't award it to defensive D just for being pretty good in their own end.

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Old
02-04-2009, 07:43 PM
  #46
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Can Green even be considered as a defenseman?

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02-04-2009, 07:43 PM
  #47
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Can Green even be considered as a defenseman?
no sir

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02-04-2009, 07:47 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordic View Post
Green isn't sent out to shut the opponents best line down, that's what guys like Lidstrom, Chara and Pronger have to do every night.

I guess I have a whole other idea of the meaning of "best defender".


To be truly dominant as a defender, you have to be rock solid defensively aswell as offensively.

If either one is enough, Willie Mitchell should have as good a chance to win as Green.
Chara is dominant offensively?

51 games, 30 pts

Pronger:

53 games, 32 pts

Green:

39 games, 42 points

This whole "one-dimensional" argument is as hypocritical as when people try to argue that players who have 20 goals and 50 assists are more balanced than players with 40 goals, 30 assists.

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Old
02-04-2009, 08:17 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeafYourLife View Post
Can Green even be considered as a defenseman?
I'm a Caps fan but I've always been very hard on Green for his defensive faults. Early in his career I didn't like his game much, and I still really don't think he should win the Norris this year. In the next few years, maybe, but definitely not this year.

All that said, his defensive game has improved to the point where saying stuff like that is just ignorant and/or misinformed. People need to actually watch the guy play in his own end before declaring him completely useless there. Frankly, he's not.

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02-04-2009, 08:28 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenAF View Post
The Norris is for the best overall defenseman, not the best defensive defenseman or the best offensive defenseman. A player can be somewhat deficient in either area so long as the other [more than] makes up for it.

You may recall that Paul Coffey won three Norris trophies, despite the fact that he was never that great defensively.
Coffey also was top 10 league wide in scoring six times in his career 3 of which were his Norris seasons. Coffey's offensive prowess is on a whole different level.

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