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Boston and Toronto trade idea

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Old
02-05-2009, 09:55 AM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grabo84 View Post
See if this was a Leaf fan proposing a similarly lopsided deal, we'd have about 7-8 people in the thread knocking us already.
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Originally Posted by Nikita Filatov View Post
Leafs fans are gonna say it'll cost Wheeler, Lucic, Wideman, Krejci, Kessel and Rask for Kaberle and Chara for the rights to negotiate with Antropov.
It wasn't a Leafs' fan proposal and STILL people are making fun of Leafs fans... nice!
Not sure what purpose that post had, other than to GREATLY exaggerate the negative quality of Leaf fan proposals... no Leafs' fans had even posted at the time. Brutal.

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02-05-2009, 10:15 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by djwilson19 View Post
ANYONE who thinks PC would acquire Kab for a prospect and a 1st one year, and then trade him for a 3rd the next is giving him a HUGE backhanded slap? You can not be serious!!!!????!!!! A higher end puck moving Dman is as valued as any position, so teams would be calling, no matter how strapped we would be. In fact you could even argue its a good position to be in, having sought after assets is better than looking for them....most deals in the 'new NHL' cap era, are equal money changing hands deals...not that this would ever happen, but essentially you are saying a KAB for say Wideman and Wheeler (about equal monies changing hands here) wouldn't work since TOR would not want the Wideman contract in return...
You don't get it dude. When I said you pick up kaberle for a 1st and a prospect only to trade him for a 3rd in the offseason I meant that you would add him now, but would have to dump him, or another one of your higher priced guys in the offseason to create cap space for the resignings i've mentioned.
Teams will not give you equal value if they know that you are in dire straits salary cap speaking, they will come out with sleazy offers like kabby for a 3rd or 2nd, bergeron for a pick, or savard for a 2nd, because they know you have to dump some serious salary, and are dealing from a position of weakness.
GMs league wide do not care about fair, if they smell blood in the water they will swarm in trying to get a 1st line player for cheap. If you enjoy getting ripped off then go ahead and trade for kaberle, the leafs will be more than happy to take him off your hands for a 3rd and sifers in the offseason.

As for trading wheeler or wideman straight up for kabby, where do I sign, that's an amazing deal for the leafs.

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Old
02-05-2009, 10:42 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by djwilson19 View Post
Did I say let Hunwick walk? Or was I pointing out that he counts against the cap this year (as you tried to say he and the likes of Bitz and other young soon to be RFA's don't count against the cap either) and that his money would potentially be gone? Respond to what was written, not what you confuse as to what I am trying to say please. I ALSO said a KAB deal does NOT get done. But for the sake of this thread we can discuss it. Does 13.7 minus 6.7 = 7.7? Hmph. And here we go again with numbers. Next years cap hit, not including ANY upcoming UFAs/RFAs is 45.95M. So yes you will have work to do at that point, with given the 56.7 cap number you use, just 10.75 left to play with. The (rough) 16 I mention is what would potentially be leaving...
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Originally Posted by djwilson19 View Post
... but obviously you would let a Hnidy and Hunwick walk (for the sake of same position guys)...
Maybe you need to pay more attention to what you actually post?

If you're going to insult someone's comprehension, make sure you're right.

One issue you seem to not get at all, is that you are counting all of those fringe NHL'ers against the cap, when not one of them owns a permanent position on the roster. Sure part of their hit counts, but in most cases it's minimal. So taking their full hit and saying "well we lose this much off our cap" is incredibly misleading, and flat out wrong. If we're committed to 45.95 mill next season already (I'd love to see where you got this number btw), how the heck are we losing 16 mill off our cap... or are we the only team allowed to reach a 61 mill cap hit this season?

And you're right, 13.7 - 6.7 does not equal 7.7, it actually equals 7, so that's even less cap space. Good catch, although not for your argument. Do you still not understand that Boston is in cap trouble without the addition of Kaberle? You add another 4.2 mill to our cap hit and one of Krejci and Kessel will be let go, that's just how it is. Unless of course you think letting Chara, Savard or Bergeron go for free is well worth one Tomas Kaberle and even then, you need to replace them with a salary that counts on the cap.

You have done nothing to show that Boston can afford Kaberle next season with a full roster. I'd love to see those numbers.


Last edited by Kaoz: 02-05-2009 at 10:48 AM.
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Old
02-05-2009, 11:24 AM
  #54
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If the Leafs were getting Carter and a 1st last year, that means they'll be looking for a similar deal this year...

Would be Wheeler/Lucic and a 1st more like it...and the Bruins would prolly say no.

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Old
02-05-2009, 11:28 AM
  #55
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You don't get it dude. When I said you pick up kaberle for a 1st and a prospect only to trade him for a 3rd in the offseason I meant that you would add him now, but would have to dump him, or another one of your higher priced guys in the offseason to create cap space for the resignings i've mentioned.
Teams will not give you equal value if they know that you are in dire straits salary cap speaking, they will come out with sleazy offers like kabby for a 3rd or 2nd, bergeron for a pick, or savard for a 2nd, because they know you have to dump some serious salary, and are dealing from a position of weakness.
GMs league wide do not care about fair, if they smell blood in the water they will swarm in trying to get a 1st line player for cheap. If you enjoy getting ripped off then go ahead and trade for kaberle, the leafs will be more than happy to take him off your hands for a 3rd and sifers in the offseason.

As for trading wheeler or wideman straight up for kabby, where do I sign, that's an amazing deal for the leafs.
I thought TOR didnt want the contract coming back though? The Manny comment was bc 2 things, again swapping equal type money and geez TOR needs a goalie too...TOR will take money if its the right deal is my point...you make it sound like TOR would NEVER take on a higher end contract...no matter the scenario. Just like you'll now say, oh but a Wide Wheel deal is different, it works for TOR and thus they would take it on, so would a deal for Kab if worked or made sense money wise on the BOS end too...we don't need to squabble over the details of any potential proposed deal, just that a Kab deal or for any player making decent money CAN work under the right circumstances...just don't write off any deal is my point...

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02-05-2009, 11:35 AM
  #56
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Full quote, not jus the part that fits for you:

"I am not saying they will be gone, but obviously you would let a Hnidy and Hunwick walk (for the sake of same position guys) to allow more room Kab."

So you would rather have Hnidy and Hunwick over Kab?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
Maybe you need to pay more attention to what you actually post?

If you're going to insult someone's comprehension, make sure you're right.

One issue you seem to not get at all, is that you are counting all of those fringe NHL'ers against the cap, when not one of them owns a permanent position on the roster. Sure part of their hit counts, but in most cases it's minimal. So taking their full hit and saying "well we lose this much off our cap" is incredibly misleading, and flat out wrong. If we're committed to 45.95 mill next season already (I'd love to see where you got this number btw), how the heck are we losing 16 mill off our cap... or are we the only team allowed to reach a 61 mill cap hit this season?

And you're right, 13.7 - 6.7 does not equal 7.7, it actually equals 7, so that's even less cap space. Good catch, although not for your argument. Do you still not understand that Boston is in cap trouble without the addition of Kaberle? You add another 4.2 mill to our cap hit and one of Krejci and Kessel will be let go, that's just how it is. Unless of course you think letting Chara, Savard or Bergeron go for free is well worth one Tomas Kaberle and even then, you need to replace them with a salary that counts on the cap.

You have done nothing to show that Boston can afford Kaberle next season with a full roster. I'd love to see those numbers.

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02-05-2009, 12:09 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djwilson19 View Post
Full quote, not jus the part that fits for you:

"I am not saying they will be gone, but obviously you would let a Hnidy and Hunwick walk (for the sake of same position guys) to allow more room Kab."

So you would rather have Hnidy and Hunwick over Kab?
So you're not saying they would be gone, but they would be? That's your quote, not mine, and it states you would let Hunwick walk, exactly the thing you insisted you didn't say. Get it right already.

And if it were just Hnidy or Hunwick for Kaberle then fine, who wouldn't do that. But again the part you fail to comprehend is that when Kaberle puts us into deeper financial trouble, you are letting another high end player go. So in reality, you pay for him this year in the trade itself, you pay again for him next year when you let Hunwick, Hnidy, and one of Krejci or Kessel walk to an offer sheet because you can't afford them.

One last time, Boston can not afford Tomas Kaberle next season. The numbers have been provided to you. Use them to prove your point if possible.

Per NHLScap.com, next season we're committed to 43mill with 9 forwards, 5 dmen and no goalies signed. Add Kaberle, and subtract the proposed cost to get him here (Peter Schaefer, Matt Hunwick, Joe Colborne, 1st '10 in this specific case) and you're adding approximately 3.5 mill without adding any players. So thats 46.5 mill (leaving us approx 10 mill in room to resign all our RFA's (Kessel, Krejci), and two goalies (keep in mind Rasks hit is 3.2 so that number comes down to 6.8).

3 forwards (including Krejci and Kessel), 2 defensemen, and 1 goalie with 6.8 mill in space. Let's see how you do it.


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02-05-2009, 12:14 PM
  #58
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Actually the salary lost for the fringe guys would be larger than the cap hit, thus opening up MORE money to spend..not less. If you have a cap of 5 dollars, and have 3 players making 1 dollar all fully against the 5 dolar cap long term and 4 other players making a dollar but each only costs .50 cents against the cap and are FA's at years end, it is still 2 dollars at the end of the year freeing up is my point. The total 16M doesnt matter against the cap now, correct, but it IS what is freed up when/if those possible players leave. If you have ever heard of nhlnumbers.com you will see what I am talking about. Yes the B's will be squeezed cap wise this offseason, but if we have 1+M in cap space left for this year (not including Marcos 2.7M LTIR relief), 1+M would be about Kabs prorated number the rest of this year, and that would be if we just traded him a for a pick or something with no cap number. Easy enough right. But Assuming we send someone like a Koba plus a few, Kab is even more not a prob cap wise this year.
So next year you have 10.75M open to work with, that was not factoring in a swap of Koba for Kab or whoever. Lets split the difference or so and say we take on about 1.25 in cap space taking on Kab and giving up Koba plus 850k/1M player(s), we would be right at the cap for next year (if cap is same as this year), B's still with 10.75 to use and the same Bos FAs/RFAs available . Its still tight but you could do it...and yes lose the likes of a Lash, or Yelle, or Manny and yes you would have to repalce them...so even tighter, but you could do it for the sake of this year. I will say it again, please do not right off any deals...and yes, some deals are this year specific. The cup is the goal right? All the talk about next years cap makes me think that a sizable deal will get done...maybe not for a guy signed after this year but if it was, I trust PC and Co. alot more than me, you and others on the matter...
Quote:
Originally Posted by djwilson19 View Post
Full quote, not jus the part that fits for you:

"I am not saying they will be gone, but obviously you would let a Hnidy and Hunwick walk (for the sake of same position guys) to allow more room Kab."

So you would rather have Hnidy and Hunwick over Kab?

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02-05-2009, 12:20 PM
  #59
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Ok, so I am not saying they will be gone (meaning we could resign them next year) but like I said they would be gone if you trade for Kab...either in 'the' trade or at years end. Hnidy and Hunwick, and sadly others would be cap casualties of such a move...and the cap they use up next year would then be freed up to absorb Kab's number, get it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
So you're not saying they would be gone, but they would be? That's your quote, not mine, and it states you would let Hunwick walk, exactly the thing you insisted you didn't say. Get it right already.

And if it were just Hnidy or Hunwick for Kaberle then fine, who wouldn't do that. But again the part you fail to comprehend is that when Kaberle puts us into deeper financial trouble, you are letting another high end player go. So in reality, you pay for him this year in the trade itself, you pay again for him next year when you let Hunwick, Hnidy, and one of Krejci or Kessel walk to an offer sheet because you can't afford them.

One last time, Boston can not afford Tomas Kaberle next season. The numbers have been provided to you. Use them to prove your point if possible.

Per NHLScap.com, next season we're committed to 43mill with 9 forwards, 5 dmen and no goalies signed. Add Kaberle, and subtract the proposed cost to get him here (Peter Schaefer, Matt Hunwick, Joe Colborne, 1st '10 in this specific case) and you're adding approximately 3.5 mill without adding any players. So thats 46.5 mill (leaving us approx 10 mill in room to resign all our RFA's (Kessel, Krejci), and two goalies (keep in mind Rasks hit is 3.2 so that number comes down to 6.8).

3 forwards (including Krejci and Kessel), 2 defensemen, and 1 goalie with 6.8 mill in space. Let's see how you do it.

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02-05-2009, 12:27 PM
  #60
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NHLcap.com must be reliable...."Per NHLScap.com, next season we're committed to 43mill with 9 forwards, 5 dmen and no goalies signed" What about Rask? I see you include him but your trusty site doesn't? nhlnumbers.com is the real deal boys...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
So you're not saying they would be gone, but they would be? That's your quote, not mine, and it states you would let Hunwick walk, exactly the thing you insisted you didn't say. Get it right already.

And if it were just Hnidy or Hunwick for Kaberle then fine, who wouldn't do that. But again the part you fail to comprehend is that when Kaberle puts us into deeper financial trouble, you are letting another high end player go. So in reality, you pay for him this year in the trade itself, you pay again for him next year when you let Hunwick, Hnidy, and one of Krejci or Kessel walk to an offer sheet because you can't afford them.

One last time, Boston can not afford Tomas Kaberle next season. The numbers have been provided to you. Use them to prove your point if possible.

. Add Kaberle, and subtract the proposed cost to get him here (Peter Schaefer, Matt Hunwick, Joe Colborne, 1st '10 in this specific case) and you're adding approximately 3.5 mill without adding any players. So thats 46.5 mill (leaving us approx 10 mill in room to resign all our RFA's (Kessel, Krejci), and two goalies (keep in mind Rasks hit is 3.2 so that number comes down to 6.8).

3 forwards (including Krejci and Kessel), 2 defensemen, and 1 goalie with 6.8 mill in space. Let's see how you do it.

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02-05-2009, 12:37 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djwilson19 View Post
NHLcap.com must be reliable...."Per NHLScap.com, next season we're committed to 43mill with 9 forwards, 5 dmen and no goalies signed" What about Rask? I see you include him but your trusty site doesn't? nhlnumbers.com is the real deal boys...
You didn't read my post obviously, Rask is figured in farther down. Specifically,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoz
Add Kaberle, and subtract the proposed cost to get him here (Peter Schaefer, Matt Hunwick, Joe Colborne, 1st '10 in this specific case) and you're adding approximately 3.5 mill without adding any players. So thats 46.5 mill (leaving us approx 10 mill in room to resign all our RFA's (Kessel, Krejci), and two goalies (keep in mind Rasks hit is 3.2 so that number comes down to 6.8).
per nhlnumbers.com, the "real deal", Boston is committed to (imagine this now) approxx 43 million with 9 forwards, 5 defensemen, and no goalies. You add Rask to that, and (again) you are no committed to 46 million, with 9 forwards, 5 defensemen, and 1 goale. Meaning, you have approx 10 mill to sign Kessel, Krejci, one of Thomas or Manny, 1 other forward, and 2 dmen.

Add Kaberle to this mix instead of Hunwick (which is what the proposed deal does) and you have 6 million to work with instead of 10, and a need to resign Kessel, Krejci, one of Thomas or Manny, 1 other forward and 2 defensemen. Now, tell me how that works, or suggest a way around it.


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02-05-2009, 12:46 PM
  #62
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I won't say that website sucks, but it doesn't give you the cap hits of any of the players who are currently on or have been on the roster...Bitz, Rask, Hunwick, Lash, St Pierre, Karsums, Boychuck, etc...that adds up to aprox 1.8M this year...and it doesn't factor in bonus money like on Kess and Wheel deals...

How can the site say no goalies and be called credible? RASK IS SIGNED! You are factoring it in, correct, but they don't...head scratcher IMO

I keep telling it would be tough...I don't need to keep going and going...you are saying we can't afford Kab or the likes with extended deals beyond this year I am saying, we can this year and COULD next, albeit with some player losses...

The real question becomes, do you stand pat and have cap problems next year, or do you make a deal (of course including some players, name whoever) and still be tight next year? If had to part, this year, with the likes of say Lash, Hnidy, Karsums, Bitz, Nokie (signed thru 09-10), Koba or Manny (money parts of any deal) and some picks to get an established player like a Kab, Doan, Svatos, guys signed and thus who make the cap tighter next year and you deal with it somehow OR for someone like Jbo, Cole, Tkachuk for a 1 yr rental and still are tight next year, do you do it? I say you do...and can. And figure it out later.


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02-05-2009, 01:03 PM
  #63
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I won't say that website sucks, but it doesn't give you the cap hits of any of the players who are currently on or have been on the roster...Bitz, Rask, Hunwick, Lash, St Pierre, Karsums, Boychuck, etc...that adds up to aprox 1.8M this year...and it doesn't factor in bonus money like on Kess and Wheel deals...

How can the site say no goalies and be called credible? RASK IS SIGNED! You are factoring it in, correct, but they don't...head scratcher IMO
What?

Scroll down man. Rask is listed.

Your nhlnumbers doesn't figure it to next years cap either because Rask is currently in the minors. So nhlnumbers hit we're committed to, also approx 43mill, does not include a goalie either. Why are you so stuck on this?

Stop dodging the pertinent question. You say we can afford Kaberle. Prove it.

Next season, per NHLscap and nhlnumbers:

When we add Kaberle to our current mix instead of Hunwick (which is what the proposed deal does), you have 6 million to work with instead of 10, and a need to resign Kessel, Krejci, one of Thomas or Manny, 1 other forward and 2 defensemen.

Now, tell me how that works, or suggest a way around it

We're not arguing over the credibility of either site, as both say the exact same thing as far as this discussion is concerned.

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02-05-2009, 01:09 PM
  #64
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I thought TOR didnt want the contract coming back though? The Manny comment was bc 2 things, again swapping equal type money and geez TOR needs a goalie too...TOR will take money if its the right deal is my point...you make it sound like TOR would NEVER take on a higher end contract...no matter the scenario. Just like you'll now say, oh but a Wide Wheel deal is different, it works for TOR and thus they would take it on, so would a deal for Kab if worked or made sense money wise on the BOS end too...we don't need to squabble over the details of any potential proposed deal, just that a Kab deal or for any player making decent money CAN work under the right circumstances...just don't write off any deal is my point...
What i said about manny wasn't that the leafs don't want to take on any salary, but what does clearing manny do for Boston's cap troubles next season? If you want to add manny to even salary for this year then fine, the leafs will be happy to take him to get a deal done.

The point that you can't seem to grasp is that if you trade for kaberle, even if you send manny the other way you are still adding 4.25 mil to your cap for the next two years. This summer you need to resign kessel, krejci, and thomas, the following summer you have wheeler, lucic, noke, stuart, and rask up.

Let me reiterate this for the 5th time, you cannot add kaberle without losing some core players this summer and next. Is Kaberle really worth losing kessel, on top of the 1st round pick and top prospect it would cost to acquire him in the first place?

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02-05-2009, 01:33 PM
  #65
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Give us Kessel, and take any package not Schenn or a pick.
...toss in as many expiring salary dumps as you need

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02-05-2009, 01:45 PM
  #66
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What i said about manny wasn't that the leafs don't want to take on any salary, but what does clearing manny do for Boston's cap troubles next season? If you want to add manny to even salary for this year then fine, the leafs will be happy to take him to get a deal done.

The point that you can't seem to grasp is that if you trade for kaberle, even if you send manny the other way you are still adding 4.25 mil to your cap for the next two years. This summer you need to resign kessel, krejci, and thomas, the following summer you have wheeler, lucic, noke, stuart, and rask up.

Let me reiterate this for the 5th time, you cannot add kaberle without losing some core players this summer and next. Is Kaberle really worth losing kessel, on top of the 1st round pick and top prospect it would cost to acquire him in the first place?
And my point is, you will lose some of those guys regardless...I understand that 4.25 is added to out cap next year by taking on Kab, but its less of a cap hit if you add a Koba and even less if you add even more players...obviously we get that. Most likely though, yes our cap would increase for next year with Kab vs without, it would just mean letting the likes of more Karsums, Bitz, Yelle, Lash types go...and making the K's and TT/MF harder too...in the end is worth a cup run knowing its going to tough either way? With Kab you let Lash, Hnidy, Karsums, Bitz, St Pierre, PJ and Yelle types and possibly TT/MF walk...signing the K's and some of the lower end guys to fill in..without Kab, you possibly keep ONE of the above, you still sign the K's, have a few extra bucks for TT/MF (and then pray) and still fill in with lower end guys...its gonna be tough either way this off-season, so why not make a deal this year? I honestly think this is how the B's will look at it...

Look at it this way, B's have Kab (or whoever your ideal guy is my point really, a guy signed thru next year+) this year for run and beyond, the K's resigned next and all other UFA/RFAs gone. Or Same team for remainder of year, and next lets say sign Hunwick (who I like), the K's and a 50-50 shot at TT/MF, all others are gone again...obviously it depends on who you trade, but we CAN handle a contract this year and still have close to the same team next...either way we are going to lose guys NO MATTER WHAT. Package some up and go for it I say...

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02-05-2009, 02:02 PM
  #67
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Quote:
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What?

Scroll down man. Rask is listed.

Your nhlnumbers doesn't figure it to next years cap either because Rask is currently in the minors. So nhlnumbers hit we're committed to, also approx 43mill, does not include a goalie either. Why are you so stuck on this?

Stop dodging the pertinent question. You say we can afford Kaberle. Prove it.

Next season, per NHLscap and nhlnumbers:

When we add Kaberle to our current mix instead of Hunwick (which is what the proposed deal does), you have 6 million to work with instead of 10, and a need to resign Kessel, Krejci, one of Thomas or Manny, 1 other forward and 2 defensemen.

Now, tell me how that works, or suggest a way around it

We're not arguing over the credibility of either site, as both say the exact same thing as far as this discussion is concerned.
Who's more important on your team? Kessel, Krejci or Savard?

What will you do if the cap goes down in 2010?

Because, you could try to trade one of them for a top 5 pick or some great prospects?

It doesn't look too good past next year... just like the habs are stuck with Price's raise after next year and we have absolutely no idea what the cap will be...

Judging from your numbers, it's hard for you to add any salary for next year... the unbelievable great play by Kessel and Krejci couldn't come at a worst time, cap wise, of course... at least, they're not UFA...

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02-05-2009, 02:20 PM
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Kaoz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MTL-rules View Post
Who's more important on your team? Kessel, Krejci or Savard?

What will you do if the cap goes down in 2010?

Because, you could try to trade one of them for a top 5 pick or some great prospects?

It doesn't look too good past next year... just like the habs are stuck with Price's raise after next year and we have absolutely no idea what the cap will be...

Judging from your numbers, it's hard for you to add any salary for next year... the unbelievable great play by Kessel and Krejci couldn't come at a worst time, cap wise, of course... at least, they're not UFA...
Not so, Boston can swing it if they absolutely need to. You're right about 2010 though, I don't see it as a huge issue now though.

It all depends on what Krejci and Kessel sign for next season also. No matter what, moves can be made so they can afford everyone next season. Their goaltending may take a hit but thems the breaks, with their strong system play that shouldn't be too much of an issue.

Say we have 9 forwards, 5 dmen, 1 goalie (Rask at 3.2) with only 10 mill to fill out the roster.

For arguments sakes, Kessel and Krejci sign for 4 a piece. You are left with 2 mill for a dman and a goalie. Hunwick and Lashoff combine for 1.6, and a decent backup can be obtained for say 800K. Yes you're 1 to 2 Mill over, but then you can look at moving Sturm's 3.5 mill, Wards 2.5, or Kobasews 2.5. We have the depth to replace any of these folks with a player like Sobotka, Karsums, Lashoff, etc... basically all players under a mill.

For the next season, figure Wheels already makes approx 3 mill when you figure in bonuses, so how much more will his hit be next year really? Lucic isn't the high profile goal scoring dynamo, so he'll not likely get huge huge money, especially in a dwindling market.

Murrays buyout (1.4 mill comes off the books). And Savard is a UFA. If anyone is made available at that time, you can be almost sure it will be Savard but with Krejci, Bergeron, Hamill, St Pierre, Sobotka, Noke, etc as the Bruins center depth I don't think it will be a big crisis.

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02-05-2009, 03:15 PM
  #69
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Do you honestly think Lash and Hunwick re-up for essentially the same money they are getting now? I doubt Lash does, considering he was a 1st rounder and is either involved in or asked for in almost every BOS proposal = has value...BUT, you could find some extra cash in the fact that Kess could go with deal that escalates each year say 3yr/12M (3.5, 4, 4.5) per) and Krejci takes say a 4yr/13M similar deal (2.5, 3, 3.5, 4 per). Remember Kess is making 2+ with his bonus but DK is making just 850k. You just don't see too many 400% raises (DK) for guys who have 1 good year.

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