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Average goaltending WILL NOT win a championship!

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Old
02-06-2009, 12:01 PM
  #51
phlocky
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I just have one question to ask everyone jumping on our goalies case, do you think the flyers would have won the cup last year with Osgood in net??? Come on now, be honest and answer the question, would the flyers have won the cup if we had Chris fraking Osgood in net instead of Marty Biron???

Osgood has now won 2 cups as the starting goalie but in his time away from the Wings, when he was with the Islanders and Blues, he was worse than either Biron or Nitty. So, either Osgood is just an average goalie on a great team, hence PROVING that you CAN win the cup with an average goalie, or he's a great goalie that can carry a team to the cup, but only if they are named the Detroit Red Wings and not the New York Islanders or St Louis Blues. So which is it guys??? Chris frwaking Osgood seems to completely contradict this whole believe that only great goalies can win a cup.

Hell, I've only gone back to the most recent Stanley Cup winner too. We haven't even gone back to someone like Cam Ward who won the cup one year and then the next wasn't even "average" enough to get his team to the freaking playoffs. Hell, Hasek carried a far worse team in the Sabres to the playoffs than the Caners had the year after they won the cup and even Hasek wasn't good enough to win a cup until he was on a great Red Wings team.

Would we be better with a better goalie??? Sure. Hell we'd be better too if we had Pringer, J-Bo, Ovie, Iginla, Datsuk, Lidstrom and any of a list of about 100 other players. We are a better team right now than we were last year and look at how far we got last year. If, and yes that's a big IF, our goalies get hot in the playoffs we CAN win the cup, it happens a lot in the NHL where a hot goalie carries a lesser team to lift the cup. Hell, it's not even the best goalie who always wins the cup, just the one who is playing better AT THAT MOMENT!!!!

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02-06-2009, 12:22 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
I just have one question to ask everyone jumping on our goalies case, do you think the flyers would have won the cup last year with Osgood in net??? Come on now, be honest and answer the question, would the flyers have won the cup if we had Chris fraking Osgood in net instead of Marty Biron???

Osgood has now won 2 cups as the starting goalie but in his time away from the Wings, when he was with the Islanders and Blues, he was worse than either Biron or Nitty. So, either Osgood is just an average goalie on a great team, hence PROVING that you CAN win the cup with an average goalie, or he's a great goalie that can carry a team to the cup, but only if they are named the Detroit Red Wings and not the New York Islanders or St Louis Blues. So which is it guys??? Chris frwaking Osgood seems to completely contradict this whole believe that only great goalies can win a cup.

Hell, I've only gone back to the most recent Stanley Cup winner too. We haven't even gone back to someone like Cam Ward who won the cup one year and then the next wasn't even "average" enough to get his team to the freaking playoffs. Hell, Hasek carried a far worse team in the Sabres to the playoffs than the Caners had the year after they won the cup and even Hasek wasn't good enough to win a cup until he was on a great Red Wings team.

Would we be better with a better goalie??? Sure. Hell we'd be better too if we had Pringer, J-Bo, Ovie, Iginla, Datsuk, Lidstrom and any of a list of about 100 other players. We are a better team right now than we were last year and look at how far we got last year. If, and yes that's a big IF, our goalies get hot in the playoffs we CAN win the cup, it happens a lot in the NHL where a hot goalie carries a lesser team to lift the cup. Hell, it's not even the best goalie who always wins the cup, just the one who is playing better AT THAT MOMENT!!!!
Anyone who plays net for Detroit will look like an allstar goalie... that's because Detroit has a ridicules defense. Our defense is not as good as there's. Unless someone plans on redoing the whole defense again, something needs to change.

Either a good defense, average goalie OR average defense, good goalie. We have a average defense, average goalie...

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02-06-2009, 12:31 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
Anyone who plays net for Detroit will look like an allstar goalie... that's because Detroit has a ridicules defense. Our defense is not as good as there's. Unless someone plans on redoing the whole defense again, something needs to change.

Either a good defense, average goalie OR average defense, good goalie. We have a average defense, average goalie...
And what would you have rated Carolina's defense and goaltending when they won the cup. Their team was basically unchanged the following year and they completely missed the playoffs. If they had either really good defense or really good goaltending then they wouldn't have missed the playoffs the following year.

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02-06-2009, 12:34 PM
  #54
Terence Peterman
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Originally Posted by flyersjamminontheone View Post
brodeur, kipprusof, patrick roy, hasek, giguere, miller, nabokov...
Brodeur: Checks out.

Kiprusoff: Did it once, and his stats have been worsening each year since.

Roy: Had a great run in 00-01. Came back with a strong 01-02, yet had a statistically regular playoffs that year. Came on strong again in 02-03, had a mildly worse playoffs, where he played just seven games. So, he's did it a couple times, but not consecutively.

Hasek: Checks out, save 07-08.

Giguere: Did it in 02-03. Has a very pedestrian 03-04, Anaheim doesn't make the playoffs. 05-06 Puts up very pedestrian numbers, playoff numbers worse. 06-07=obvious. 07-08 puts up great numbers, flops in playoffs. Has continued to play regular (when played at all) this season.

Miller: Aside from his 06-07 playoffs shouldn't even be mentioned. Nice try.

Nabokov: Played great in 00-01 regular season, nothing special in playoffs. 01-02 tells the same story. 02-03 puts up pedestrian numbers, doesn't play in the playoffs. 03-04 goes bat**** crazy and doesn't play much or well during 05-06. 06-07, 07-08 has played damn good in regular season and playoffs; is following those seasons with a nothing to write home about 09 (but yes, still very solid). Let's say from 06 on he checks out.

That means of the seven guys you named, only four of them live up to all of you peoples' "we need a bona fide superstar to win a mother****ing Cup" argument. Of those four, only three have done it consecutively, and only two of them can say they've had just one "off year."

And, oh yeah, three of those seven are generational goaltending freaks. Only three teams have someone in that category. That doesn't leave good odds for the Flyers to be one of them. And of those seven (6 if you'd like to leave out Roy for being retired, 5 if you think Hasek shouldn't have been relied on) only ONE did it last year (Nabokov).

Cup-quality goaltending just does not happen year in and year out from more than one or two guys.

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02-06-2009, 12:43 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
And what would you have rated Carolina's defense and goaltending when they won the cup. Their team was basically unchanged the following year and they completely missed the playoffs. If they had either really good defense or really good goaltending then they wouldn't have missed the playoffs the following year.
Then you are stating they won the cup on an average defense and average goalie? What the hell... How come we keep rolling with an average goalie and defense and have yet to won in a really long time? I guess Carolina is considered lucky then... I guess we can try sticking with luck also instead of try to change something

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02-06-2009, 12:49 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
I guess we can try sticking with luck also instead of try to change something
It's not that the organization would rather try to "stick with luck" over changing something. It's that trying to change it would be such a trivial task.

Yeah, we can draft more goalies all throughout the draft and, in particular, the early rounds. But that's still not a guarantee. Is it closer to a fix? Probably. But it's such a shot in the dark it's really not even worth arguing for when the context is relative to "making a change."

The last time a superstar goalie became available was Roy. I guess we can throw Hasek in there too, even though his situation was a little weirder. Those opportunities just don't come often. And if you wanna yell and ***** and piss and moan about the front office not going after those guys, fine. Do it all you want. But don't turn it into a case of never having a goalie good enough to win the cup, because it's only happened twice in recent history, and neither player has a damn thing to do with what this team's got now.

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02-06-2009, 12:50 PM
  #57
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I am still yet to see the people who complain about how bad the goaltending is and how the Flyers will never win anything with it come up with a semi-realistic plan of how to improve this so-called problem.

Would this team be better with an elite goaltender? Of course. But I don't see any around that are available.

Would this team be better with an upgrade in goal? Of course. But again, maybe I am completely blind but I don't really see any team with a very good goaltender looking to trade them.

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02-06-2009, 12:57 PM
  #58
Terence Peterman
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Originally Posted by EasyMac View Post
I am still yet to see the people who complain about how bad the goaltending is and how the Flyers will never win anything with it come up with a semi-realistic plan of how to improve this so-called problem.

Would this team be better with an elite goaltender? Of course. But I don't see any around that are available.

Would this team be better with an upgrade in goal? Of course. But again, maybe I am completely blind but I don't really see any team with a very good goaltender looking to trade them.
Game, point, match.

/Thread.

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02-06-2009, 01:03 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Sonny View Post
You've gotta be kidding dude. Name one playoff goalie from last year (hell, I'll even let you go back to the start of the decade) who has played like they did in the regular season as they did in the playoffs (and I mean played out-of-their-mind good), let alone the NEXT regular season following those playoffs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonny View Post
Brodeur: Checks out.

Kiprusoff: Did it once, and his stats have been worsening each year since.

Roy: Had a great run in 00-01. Came back with a strong 01-02, yet had a statistically regular playoffs that year. Came on strong again in 02-03, had a mildly worse playoffs, where he played just seven games. So, he's did it a couple times, but not consecutively.

Hasek: Checks out, save 07-08.

Giguere: Did it in 02-03. Has a very pedestrian 03-04, Anaheim doesn't make the playoffs. 05-06 Puts up very pedestrian numbers, playoff numbers worse. 06-07=obvious. 07-08 puts up great numbers, flops in playoffs. Has continued to play regular (when played at all) this season.

Miller: Aside from his 06-07 playoffs shouldn't even be mentioned. Nice try.

Nabokov: Played great in 00-01 regular season, nothing special in playoffs. 01-02 tells the same story. 02-03 puts up pedestrian numbers, doesn't play in the playoffs. 03-04 goes bat**** crazy and doesn't play much or well during 05-06. 06-07, 07-08 has played damn good in regular season and playoffs; is following those seasons with a nothing to write home about 09 (but yes, still very solid). Let's say from 06 on he checks out.

That means of the seven guys you named, only four of them live up to all of you peoples' "we need a bona fide superstar to win a mother****ing Cup" argument. Of those four, only three have done it consecutively, and only two of them can say they've had just one "off year."

And, oh yeah, three of those seven are generational goaltending freaks. Only three teams have someone in that category. That doesn't leave good odds for the Flyers to be one of them. And of those seven (6 if you'd like to leave out Roy for being retired, 5 if you think Hasek shouldn't have been relied on) only ONE did it last year (Nabokov).

Cup-quality goaltending just does not happen year in and year out from more than one or two guys.
Well you said to name one goalie that played as good as they did in the regular season as they did in the playoffs and he named Brodeur, Hasek, and nobokov who def did that and also Roy who always played well and Kiprusoff did as well and just happened to be aging which is why he has gone downhill. So theres 5 in the past 8 years or so. What was your point? Not to mention defense is tighter in the playoff which lowers scoring, doesnt always mean goalies played that much better.

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02-06-2009, 01:12 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by CannonGoBoom View Post
Well you said to name one goalie that played as good as they did in the regular season as they did in the playoffs and he named Brodeur, Hasek, and nobokov who def did that and also Roy who always played well and Kiprusoff did as well and just happened to be aging which is why he has gone downhill. So theres 5 in the past 8 years or so. What was your point? Not to mention defense is tighter in the playoff which lowers scoring, doesnt always mean goalies played that much better.
My point is that's five guys out of a minimum of 96 possible (6 playoffs, 16 starters per, backups who stole the show, ie Bryzgalov, omitted). If my math's right (which it may not be, so feel free to correct me) that's about 5 percent of goalies living up to the claim of playing well in the regular season and the playoffs, or the playoffs and the next regular season.

What does this mean? It means "average" goaltenders are quite capable of winning Stanley Cups.

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02-06-2009, 01:26 PM
  #61
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Carolina had excellent defense Commodore played out of his mind Hedican, & wesley solid as well and solid goaltending They smotherd you in there zone.

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02-06-2009, 02:05 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonny View Post
My point is that's five guys out of a minimum of 96 possible (6 playoffs, 16 starters per, backups who stole the show, ie Bryzgalov, omitted). If my math's right (which it may not be, so feel free to correct me) that's about 5 percent of goalies living up to the claim of playing well in the regular season and the playoffs, or the playoffs and the next regular season.

What does this mean? It means "average" goaltenders are quite capable of winning Stanley Cups.
1. Im just saying you asked to name 1 and there have been 5 named.
2. Out of those 96 Many of them were in the playoffs multiple times so its not like there have been 96 different goalies.
3. The original post asked to name guys who were as good in the regular season as they were in the playoffs. Of those 96 playoff teams, most of the goalies didnt play great in the playoffs. So if the question is how many goalies played as good as they did in the playoffs the real answer is closer to like 80-90% because some goalies actually play much better than they do in the playoffs.
4. In the end I agree that an average goalie can win a cup, I just like our chances with a good one(although I know theres nobody available so this whole thread is a bit pointless).

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02-06-2009, 02:13 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post
Starting goalies that have led their team to a Stanley Cup Championship currently playing in the NHL:

Chris Osgood, 0.906 career sv%, 2.46 career GAA
J.S. Giguere, 0.915, 2.47
Cam Ward, 0.900, 2.88
Nikolai Khabibulin, 0.908, 2.67
Martin Brodeur, 0.914, 2.20

Philadelphia goaltenders:
Marty Biron, 0.910, 2.59
Antero Niittymaki, 0.901, 3.00

Above Average starting goaltenders without a Stanley Cup ring (I'm just guessing who you would consider being an 'above average' goalie):

Henrik Lundqvist, Marc-Andre Fleury, Tim Thomas, Carey Price, Ryan Miller, Tomas Vokoun, Cristobal Huet, Roberto Luongo, Miikka Kiprusoff, Nick Backstrom, Marty Turco, Evgeni Nabokov, Ilya Bryzgalov

You're right, average goaltending will probably not win a team a championship. An 'average' goaltender, however, can get hot at any time. If Marty plays 'average', the Flyers don't beat the Caps or the Habs last season.

This team has bigger issues than its goaltending.
One of the best posts on our situation I've seen in awhile. Frankly, I think Biron and Nits are both capable of doing the job.

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02-06-2009, 02:32 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by CannonGoBoom View Post
1. Im just saying you asked to name 1 and there have been 5 named.
2. Out of those 96 Many of them were in the playoffs multiple times so its not like there have been 96 different goalies.
3. The original post asked to name guys who were as good in the regular season as they were in the playoffs. Of those 96 playoff teams, most of the goalies didnt play great in the playoffs. So if the question is how many goalies played as good as they did in the playoffs the real answer is closer to like 80-90% because some goalies actually play much better than they do in the playoffs.
4. In the end I agree that an average goalie can win a cup, I just like our chances with a good one(although I know theres nobody available so this whole thread is a bit pointless).
Exactly... Do I think an average goalie can win, yes. This depends on so many factors though. We have a better chance of winning with a good goalie then an average one... no shyt right? Im all up for drafting a goalie in the upcoming first round, maybe that kid Roy. Then the kid can play under Biron/Nitty and soon take over their job. Maybe we ave a cup by then? Who knows

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02-06-2009, 05:47 PM
  #65
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02-06-2009, 06:36 PM
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That's just epic. Needs to be used way more often.

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02-06-2009, 11:06 PM
  #67
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Kiprusoff: Did it once, and his stats have been worsening each year since.

Roy: Had a great run in 00-01. Came back with a strong 01-02, yet had a statistically regular playoffs that year. Came on strong again in 02-03, had a mildly worse playoffs, where he played just seven games. So, he's did it a couple times, but not consecutively.

Giguere: Did it in 02-03. Has a very pedestrian 03-04, Anaheim doesn't make the playoffs. 05-06 Puts up very pedestrian numbers, playoff numbers worse. 06-07=obvious. 07-08 puts up great numbers, flops in playoffs. Has continued to play regular (when played at all) this season.

Miller: Aside from his 06-07 playoffs shouldn't even be mentioned. Nice try.

Nabokov: Played great in 00-01 regular season, nothing special in playoffs. 01-02 tells the same story. 02-03 puts up pedestrian numbers, doesn't play in the playoffs. 03-04 goes bat**** crazy and doesn't play much or well during 05-06. 06-07, 07-08 has played damn good in regular season and playoffs; is following those seasons with a nothing to write home about 09 (but yes, still very solid). Let's say from 06 on he checks out.

those were just off the top of my head. Miller is the reason we have biron, give credit where it belongs, Roy is the best goalie to play the game (until brodeur retires), Nabokov is the reason calgary has kipper who is amongst the leaders year in/out in goalie stats (he can't score goals and make calgary advance in the playoffs), and toronto has that other finn. what about Belfour? The point is stud goalies put teams over the top. maybe if roloson doesn't get injured cam ward doesn't win a cup.

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02-07-2009, 12:14 AM
  #68
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wow that is awesome.

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02-07-2009, 11:12 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
Then you are stating they won the cup on an average defense and average goalie? What the hell... How come we keep rolling with an average goalie and defense and have yet to won in a really long time? I guess Carolina is considered lucky then... I guess we can try sticking with luck also instead of try to change something

Umm, ya, that's the point. There is an aweful lot of LUCK that goes into winnning the cup, rarely does the best team in the league actually WIN the cup, the Wings last year were one of the exceptions. What too many of you seem to miss is that all these guys are professionals and all pretty damn good. There's not a whole lot of difference between the best team in the league and the worst. Take this to the playoffs where injuries and players getting hot at the right time can make a HUGE difference and voila, the best team OFTEN doesn't win, case in point our first 2 rounds last year.

Here ya go, in 04 WE would have won the cup with Esche in net if it weren't for all the injuries we had on defense. We were a better team than TB AT THAT MOMENT and we'd have finished the cup run by beating the Flames. We came within one freaking goal of beating TB with having so many injuries on defense that we had to play a winger back on defense because we nothing else left.

Yes, the Canes won the cup with average defense, average goaltending and an average team all-around with a few star players who got hot at the right time and with a bit of luck won it all.

Look, I am NOT saying we wouldn't be better with a better goalie but a better goalie doesn't guarentee us a cup either. We could have had Brodeur for the past 10 years and STILL not won any cups. Brodeur wouldn't have beaten the Wings in 97. Chechmanik wasn't the problem when we scored only 1 goal in 5 games against the Sens so Brodeur wouldn't have won that series either. Garth Snow and Robert Esche both stood on their heads and looked like Hasek in the playoffs so tell me how a superstar goalie would have won us a cup with those teams.


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02-07-2009, 11:24 AM
  #70
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Carolina had excellent defense Commodore played out of his mind Hedican, & wesley solid as well and solid goaltending They smotherd you in there zone.
If they were so freaking good then why did the same basic defensive squad not even play well enough to make the playoffs the following year???? They played out of their minds FOR ONE YEAR!!!!! That's called getting hot at the right time and that's my point. If they were so damn good then they'd be a perenial playoff team and at the top of the league like the Wings year in, year out. The Canes aren't. They had one fabulous run and have **** the bed ever since.

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02-07-2009, 11:39 AM
  #71
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I have been a Flyers fan for a long time and it seems it is the same thing year after year. It is not so much how many goals our galies have let in it seems when and how they let them in that is the problem. At key points in the game when you need a big save we have rarely had a goalie that was capable of that consistently. Both Nitty and Biron have made some huge stops dont get me wrong, it is just that then they follow it up with a stinker and it really deflates the team IMO. Huge as well as routine stops at the right points of the game can cause huge momentum shifts.

I know it has been beaten to death that there are no real available options at the moment but I dont think that Holmgren and the scouts should let that deter them. They need to continue to draft goalies but need to do so more in the mid rounds rather in the late rounds. Has there ever been such a thing as a strictly "GOALIE SCOUT" maybe it is something to look into?? Think outside the box cause inside the box hasnt worked

Eventually they will find that diamond in the rough and I cant wait

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02-07-2009, 12:04 PM
  #72
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If they were so freaking good then why did the same basic defensive squad not even play well enough to make the playoffs the following year???? They played out of their minds FOR ONE YEAR!!!!! That's called getting hot at the right time and that's my point. If they were so damn good then they'd be a perenial playoff team and at the top of the league like the Wings year in, year out. The Canes aren't. They had one fabulous run and have **** the bed ever since.
Look at us from the 05-06 season to the 06-07 season. We went from a playoff run to last in the league. We had around the same offense, defense, and goalies. **** happens. You can say the same thing happened to us... The only difference is, the year after we redid 75% of our team, and the Canes havent changed much at all.

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02-07-2009, 01:03 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
Umm, ya, that's the point. There is an aweful lot of LUCK that goes into winnning the cup, rarely does the best team in the league actually WIN the cup, the Wings last year were one of the exceptions. What too many of you seem to miss is that all these guys are professionals and all pretty damn good. There's not a whole lot of difference between the best team in the league and the worst. Take this to the playoffs where injuries and players getting hot at the right time can make a HUGE difference and voila, the best team OFTEN doesn't win, case in point our first 2 rounds last year.

Here ya go, in 04 WE would have won the cup with Esche in net if it weren't for all the injuries we had on defense. We were a better team than TB AT THAT MOMENT and we'd have finished the cup run by beating the Flames. We came within one freaking goal of beating TB with having so many injuries on defense that we had to play a winger back on defense because we nothing else left.

Yes, the Canes won the cup with average defense, average goaltending and an average team all-around with a few star players who got hot at the right time and with a bit of luck won it all.

Look, I am NOT saying we wouldn't be better with a better goalie but a better goalie doesn't guarentee us a cup either. We could have had Brodeur for the past 10 years and STILL not won any cups. Brodeur wouldn't have beaten the Wings in 97. Chechmanik wasn't the problem when we scored only 1 goal in 5 games against the Sens so Brodeur wouldn't have won that series either. Garth Snow and Robert Esche both stood on their heads and looked like Hasek in the playoffs so tell me how a superstar goalie would have won us a cup with those teams.

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02-07-2009, 01:15 PM
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02-07-2009, 01:39 PM
  #75
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Player vs player we match up very closely to the Wings. Our defense may be slightly less than theirs but not by that much. The biggest difference in our 2 teams and the thing that makes them miles ahead of us is their system and coaching. We have all the tools. We have a good defense. Maybe it's not top 5 but it's certainly top 10 (I'd say right about #10). The thing that makes the Wings so good for so long is coaching and their system. The thing that has made the Devis so successful for so long is coaching and their system. If the Devils were only good because of Brodeur then they certainly wouldn't be leading the division with him out for almost the entire season. They are obviously more than just a one-man show goalie. Their defense isn't as good as ours. Their forwards aren't as good as ours. Without Brodeur their goalies aren't as good as ours. So why are they better than us??? The Devils do more with less and we don't come close to playing the best we can, that's all about coaching.

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