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John Tavares, Draft day

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Old
02-09-2009, 01:37 AM
  #101
IWD
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Originally Posted by boredmale View Post
I don't see many talking about Tavares being a sure fire superstar. It's all speculative how well he will be. Thing is that #1 pick does have value(and in this case alot of value). As an Islanders fan, there isn't much to look forward to at this point beyond the trade deadline and draft. With this being a board about future prospects, I think you also have to expect alot of talk about prospects.
I expect plenty of talk about prospects. That doesn't mean I don't shake my head when I hear people demanding absorbent proven assets for question marks.

You may wish to stroll over to the prospects board. There's a great many who are treating him as a future superstar. In fact, you don't even need to go over there. This thread has plenty in itself. It's one thing to point out that a rebuilding team wouldn't want an older player. It's another to think that, value-wise, Tavares trumps established all-star talent like Heatley, Kaberle or Datsyuk. I think the history of traded top 5 picks suggests otherwise.

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02-09-2009, 02:06 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Icewind Dale View Post
You may wish to stroll over to the prospects board. There's a great many who are treating him as a future superstar. In fact, you don't even need to go over there. This thread has plenty in itself. It's one thing to point out that a rebuilding team wouldn't want an older player. It's another to think that, value-wise, Tavares trumps established all-star talent like Heatley, Kaberle or Datsyuk. I think the history of traded top 5 picks suggests otherwise.
Just going on basis of reports, it seems like Tavares is a special kind of player. Maybe not Crosby level, but I would say he is getting Thornton or Lecavalier levels of hype.

In terms of value does a potential future superstar equal the guys you mentioned? Well I would argue yes with the exception of Datsyuk who is on a team that is a Playoff contender that it would make no logical sense for them to tear apart there team in order to rebuild. In the cap world as well, not only are you trading players but you also aquiring cap space in such kind of deals(although Kaberle's contract is very cap friendly)

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Old
02-09-2009, 02:20 AM
  #103
petrocelli
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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post
Isles: #1 overall, Toronto's #2, Boston's #2
Toronto: 5th overall, Schenn
If you break it down like this, there is a huge difference between the first overall pick and the fifth overall, especially in a year with a player of Tavares' potential at the top... I don't even know if Luke Schenn alone makes up that difference, but to think the Isles would throw in two second rounders.... INSANE!! Isn't Luke Schenn a defensive defensemen with limited offensive upside???
When did Luke Schenn become like the second coming of Scott Stevens?? Weren't there like 3 defensemen taken ahead of him last year, and a bunch of other teams supposedly would have taken Tyler Myers over him if they were drafting high enough....
I know Tavares isn't a sure thing, but considering the Isles haven't had a STAR offensive player and TRUE first line centerman since Pierre Turgeon, I'm not giving Tavares and his potential away, PLUS TWO SECOND ROUNDERS for Luke Schenn, a defenseman will limited offensive upside..

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02-09-2009, 03:17 AM
  #104
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The Isles could've had Schenn for nothing at last years draft, so why would they be keen on him now?

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02-09-2009, 06:35 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by LeafsGetTavares View Post
I know this will never happen...
Schenn
2009 1st (5)

Tavares
Yeah...no thanks. That doesn't work for us anyway

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Old
02-09-2009, 06:41 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by coaster1330 View Post
We will give up Heatley for the 1st + a little.

Heatley for Tavares +Bergenheim?
I would rather deal with the Kings or Blues. Teams that have younger stars. Heatley is what...28? Most of our guys are 19-21. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense for a rebuilding team to do this.

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02-09-2009, 09:19 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by grabo84 View Post
Biggest bust? He was the best player in the NHL for a while. It wasn't his fault he ran into concussion trouble.
technically it was...keep your heads up kiddies!

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Old
02-09-2009, 09:45 AM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boredmale View Post
Just going on basis of reports, it seems like Tavares is a special kind of player. Maybe not Crosby level, but I would say he is getting Thornton or Lecavalier levels of hype.

In terms of value does a potential future superstar equal the guys you mentioned? Well I would argue yes with the exception of Datsyuk who is on a team that is a Playoff contender that it would make no logical sense for them to tear apart there team in order to rebuild. In the cap world as well, not only are you trading players but you also aquiring cap space in such kind of deals(although Kaberle's contract is very cap friendly)
I think my biggest issue is the fact that many people are blindly rating a player who may reach all-star potential more valuable than players who have already reached all-star potential. It kind of reminds of when I first finished undergrad. I was frustrated because I wasn't getting the same jobs that someone with the same education and 5 years experience in the work-force was getting.

The Lecavalier comparison is the one I usually make too.

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02-09-2009, 10:02 AM
  #109
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leafs need to go for victor hedman especailly if kabs and kubina r traded.. i dont c leafs getting tavares.. i c them giving up stajan, poni and there first for hedman.. no point of going after tavares if he will end up costing all the main prospect leaf have (kulemin, tlusty, stralman)..we all knw rfa season he will be offered a contract from leafs...(if he is a consistent performer)

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02-09-2009, 10:37 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Redlighting View Post
IMO, the battle of the top two picks is going to be between OTT and TOR.

TOR drafts Tavares
OTT drafts Hedman
Given that Toronto is about 12 points ahead of the Isles, with less than 30 games to play, that is more than a little far-fetched.

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02-09-2009, 10:38 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by leafsin2010 View Post
leafs need to go for victor hedman especailly if kabs and kubina r traded.. i dont c leafs getting tavares.. i c them giving up stajan, poni and there first for hedman.. no point of going after tavares if he will end up costing all the main prospect leaf have (kulemin, tlusty, stralman)..we all knw rfa season he will be offered a contract from leafs...(if he is a consistent performer)
Stajan, Poni, and your first, is not getting Hedman.

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02-09-2009, 10:51 AM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Icewind Dale View Post
I think my biggest issue is the fact that many people are blindly rating a player who may reach all-star potential more valuable than players who have already reached all-star potential. It kind of reminds of when I first finished undergrad. I was frustrated because I wasn't getting the same jobs that someone with the same education and 5 years experience in the work-force was getting.

The Lecavalier comparison is the one I usually make too.
Just out of curiosity, where in this thread do you see anybody comparing Taveres to Prince Vincent or "rating him more valuable than an all star."

The point is that the Isles are so far away from contention that trading an 18-YO for a 30-YO (like Datsyuk) would make no sense.

Oh, and Kaberle with a -12 and 4 goals is far, far, far away from being an "all star" right now.


Last edited by Darth Milbury: 02-09-2009 at 11:02 AM.
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Old
02-09-2009, 10:52 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by petrocelli View Post
If you break it down like this, there is a huge difference between the first overall pick and the fifth overall, especially in a year with a player of Tavares' potential at the top... I don't even know if Luke Schenn alone makes up that difference, but to think the Isles would throw in two second rounders.... INSANE!! Isn't Luke Schenn a defensive defensemen with limited offensive upside???
When did Luke Schenn become like the second coming of Scott Stevens?? Weren't there like 3 defensemen taken ahead of him last year, and a bunch of other teams supposedly would have taken Tyler Myers over him if they were drafting high enough....
I know Tavares isn't a sure thing, but considering the Isles haven't had a STAR offensive player and TRUE first line centerman since Pierre Turgeon, I'm not giving Tavares and his potential away, PLUS TWO SECOND ROUNDERS for Luke Schenn, a defenseman will limited offensive upside..
Leaf fans didn't want to do this deal either, which tells me it is pretty close to fair (i.e., nobody wants to do it - it is a hard pill to swallow for both sides).

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02-09-2009, 10:54 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by IslesNorway View Post
The Isles could've had Schenn for nothing at last years draft, so why would they be keen on him now?
That isn't true. Getting Schenn last year would have cost us Bailey, a 2nd rounder, and third rounder - a pretty steep price to pay.

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02-09-2009, 12:18 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post
That isn't true. Getting Schenn last year would have cost us Bailey, a 2nd rounder, and third rounder - a pretty steep price to pay.
Of course, but they still could've had Schenn if they wanted him and ranked him higher than Bailey.

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02-09-2009, 03:14 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post
Just out of curiosity, where in this thread do you see anybody comparing Taveres to Prince Vincent or "rating him more valuable than an all star."

The point is that the Isles are so far away from contention that trading an 18-YO for a 30-YO (like Datsyuk) would make no sense.

Oh, and Kaberle with a -12 and 4 goals is far, far, far away from being an "all star" right now.
I was the one comparing him to Lecavalier. That's what I see his ceiling to be. The point wasn't that teams that are rebuilding wouldn't want a 30 year old. That's common sense. I pointed that out. I said my issue was that people think that a prospect who might turn out to be an all-star has more value than a current all-star. I don't think I really need to provide examples where the perceived value of trades on this boards favours prospects and draft picks over proven players. Do I?

Regardless of those stats, Kaberle is an all-star defenseman. That is fact. 3 of the last 4 seasons he has been one. If far, far, far = a handful of games removed from the all-star game, then yes, we agree. As for -12, well, the Leafs have the worst GAA and save % in the league, while being 8th in the league in shots against. Kaberle plays the majority of minutes. Conclude from that what you will.

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02-09-2009, 03:23 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Redlighting View Post
IMO, the battle of the top two picks is going to be between OTT and TOR.

TOR drafts Tavares
OTT drafts Hedman
I'm gonna take a shot in the dark here and guess you know all the words to "O Canada".

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Old
02-09-2009, 11:00 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Icewind Dale View Post
I was the one comparing him to Lecavalier. That's what I see his ceiling to be. The point wasn't that teams that are rebuilding wouldn't want a 30 year old. That's common sense. I pointed that out. I said my issue was that people think that a prospect who might turn out to be an all-star has more value than a current all-star. I don't think I really need to provide examples where the perceived value of trades on this boards favours prospects and draft picks over proven players. Do I?

Regardless of those stats, Kaberle is an all-star defenseman. That is fact. 3 of the last 4 seasons he has been one. If far, far, far = a handful of games removed from the all-star game, then yes, we agree. As for -12, well, the Leafs have the worst GAA and save % in the league, while being 8th in the league in shots against. Kaberle plays the majority of minutes. Conclude from that what you will.
Mark Streit is +2 on a team with one of hte worst GAA in the league,and is leading the team in TOI - conclude from that what you will. The fact of the matter is good dmen will put up decent numbers -even on a bad team. Kaberele is simply having a crappy indifferent season.

But, beyond that point, you are talking about a dman who has failed to lead his team to the playoffs for three consecutive seasons. Wondering why a rebuiding team would not want to trade a potential cornerstone draft pick for a player of this ilk is not sensible, IMO.

If you are drafting in the top 10, and are a non-playoff team, you don't consider moving your pick unless you are getting back a guy who is a difference maker, and can be the core of your team for years to come. Kaberle is certainly not that player. I'm not even sure Datysuk is that player since he is 30ish and will be past his peak by the time a team like the Isles have if finally competitive.

Incidently, in my experience, fans are alwasy willing to talk about the value of proven talent when stripping away another team's picks and youths. But, usually they are not as eager when it involves their own team giving up the future.

So, how about this one: Mark Streit for the Leaf's 1st rounder straight up. According to you, an All star dman (who, btw, has outpointed Kaberele for two consecutive seasons and has been far stronger in his own end this season) is easily worth a top five pick. I am assuming then that you would make this move?


Last edited by Darth Milbury: 02-09-2009 at 11:29 PM.
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Old
02-09-2009, 11:03 PM
  #119
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I don't think the Leafs are getting Tavares, and even if they wanted him, the cost is too great.

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Old
02-10-2009, 01:09 AM
  #120
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Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
I'd be shocked if a lottery team gives up a 1st for 30 yr old Kaberle.

I'd rather have Tavares or Hedman with the isles 1st then 2 later first rounders.The nyi 2nd is like a late first.Then they'll have the Leafs 2nd.They have a good chance of picking up a kid in the 2nd who slips down out of the 1st round.
As of Feb.10th, 2009 1:30 AM EST, the Entry Draft order (Top 5) is as follows:

1) NY Islanders
2) Atlanta Thrashers
3) Ottawa Senators
4) Tampa Bay Lightning
5) Toronto Msple Leafs

There is a very good chance that this order will change before the end if this season. The Maple Leafs could very well bypass TB, OTT, and ATL. There's only a 10-point difference between #2 and #5, so as everyone can see much can still happen.

I find it rather pointless for TOR to give up so many assets considering the fact tha they are ALSO a re-building team in almost as bad a shape as NYI.

Also don't forget about the Lottery! Any of the aforementioned teams can win it and vault into the #1 spot.

We'll have to wait and see what happens, although I hope that TOR can somehow gain 1 oe 2 more 1st rnd picks...


Last edited by EucaLEAFtys: 02-10-2009 at 02:54 AM.
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Old
02-10-2009, 01:44 AM
  #121
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Originally Posted by KewlBum View Post
To Toronto:
- Isle's 1st in 09

To islanders
- Leafs 1st in 09 (around 5th overall)
- Leafs 1st in 10 (in all likelihood top 10)
- one of Stajan/Stempniak
- one of Kulemin/Tlusty/Grabovski
- Leafs throw in Stralman no matter if trade happens or not
Do you seriousluy think that the Leafs are that daft?!?!?!? If so, then your caretaker had better put you back into your strait-jacket because you must be thoroughly insane.

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02-10-2009, 01:49 AM
  #122
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Originally Posted by LeafsGetTavares View Post
What do you guys think? Let's say NYI, day of the draft get the number one pick but want to trade it.

Would would it take to get John Tavares?

My proposal for the leafs assuming they get the number 5 pick

1st round pick 09
A prospect
Kaberle

Is this over payment? Or under payment? What do you guys think?
Overpayment, but Mcdonald's with coupon's would do the trick

Seriously though, why would a team want to trade the possible next crosby?

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02-10-2009, 03:48 AM
  #123
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Originally Posted by Thisisacodee View Post
As an Islanders fan, I'm pulling for Tavares more than anything. But if you guys are willing to give up, say:

2009 1st (Draft Matt Duchese)
2010 1st
Kaberle
Stajan
Kulemin

I'd take the deal without a moment's hesitation. I'd even throw in our 2nd and/or a guy like Sean Bergenheim to see the deal go through. Reminds me of the Lindros trade.
which built Quebec/Colorado into a machine and screwed Philly. Don't want him that bad at all.

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