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Old
02-10-2009, 10:23 AM
  #26
Fletch
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Synergy...

I don't doubt Sather's intention one bit. I do think the Sabres of a couple seasons ago had better up front talent than the current Rangers. I thought they worked harder on a nightly basis, and I thought they played a more physical brand of hockey - not so much open ice hits, but guys who would go in front of the net and take whatever punishment was there as well as guys who would go into corners and fight for the puck and win. The Rangers, too often, play a perimeter game, and that hurts them. Vanek goes up and down more than Zherdev. Vanek's game is more simple, and that was Buffalo's formula - simplicity - much like the Devils'.

And you mention that perhaps you don't need that 'superstar' type guy to win, but Buffalo seemed to not have that guy and in the end they lost. You don't need a Crosby, or an Ovechkin, or even a Datsyuk. But it's hard to not have that forward capable of 35-40 goals, or that impact defenseman like a Niedermayer. The current Rangers have a couple guys capable of scoring more than 20 goals. They have a couple more they hope can do it for the first time in their career. It's just not enough goal scoring, and in a cap era, it's tough to find 5-6 20-25 goal scorers and is sometimes more efficient to have one 40 goal scorer at the expense of having only 3-4 guys who can score more than 20 goals.

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02-10-2009, 10:24 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
He's made the playoffs three straight years and won two playoff series all with teams less talented then the teams that preceded the lockout.

How many coaches in the East made the playoffs every yearn since the lockout? How teams have?


By the way, tell me what coach that doesn't ride his best player(s)?
and Lavs won a cup on a team that really wasnt that stacked. doesn't winning a cup count for anything these days. you make it seem like Renney is the second coming of Christ just because he can get into the playoffs w/ a top 5 goalie and a top 5 player. I'm saying that we would have made the playoffs regardless of the coach b/c we had Jagr and Lundy. Hell we weren't in PO position last year until Jagr decided to dominate the league again the last month and a half, and carry us through the PO's. but yeah that was because Renney changed the strategy (which he didn't). And yeah Renney's defensive style was the reason that Jagr broke team records and should have been MVP that year. Or maybe, just maybe it is because Jagr is one of the best players ALL-TIME.

and the reason that we didn't make the PO's for a while even w/ good lineups was b/c after Richter departed we didnt have a goalie.

hey the Devils made the Playoffs all three years after the lockout also and they fired their coach. they are now also one of the best teams in hockey. but according to you firing a coach will make a team worse.

I guess I should look the other way about Chicago and Washington as well.

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02-10-2009, 10:25 AM
  #28
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Rags...

I do agree that Ruff is a better coach than Renney...but not much better. We can all complain about Renney's inability to coach a team that can create offense, but at the end of the day, who cares - it's about wins and losses, and that's how he should be measured - not so much how the wins were wins and the losses were losses.

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02-10-2009, 10:27 AM
  #29
NYR Sting
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The problem is the team is going nowhere, at least in my opinion. Obviously, you all know my stance on this. I think we're screwed. I think the next 5 years, barring MAJOR changes, are going to be a lot like this one, and I think that sucks. Yes, we'll have some good young players, but again, please look around the rest of the league. Everyone has good young players coming up. Maybe not everyone, but a lot of teams. And a lot of those teams have better young players coming, or already here, than we do.

What I can't get past is how many mistakes Sather makes without losing his job. Who else, other than Milbury, gets to keep his job after time and again making horrible decision after horrible decision. Yes, he's made some good moves, but the good moves have less of an impact on the overall direction of the team than his bad moves. These contracts have put this team in a bind for the next 5 seasons. NO ONE is going to want Redden or Gomez at these deals.

That's what is infuriating here. We're stuck. Unless Grachev and Anisimov become superstars, where is this team heading? What transition? I hate that word after this season. There is no transition. It's going to be, basically, the same team with a couple of new young players who are probably going to be just what we have now: complimentary players or role players.

People are saying a rebuild would have been a waste of Lundqvist's prime. Well, what is this? This isn't a waste? Are people THAT thrilled just to make the playoffs that they don't give a **** whether the team actually does anything once they get there?

It isn't this season that has me down and out. It's the team's future, because in my eyes, it is very bleak. I would rather be bad and obtain high draft picks than be mediocre, which is what this team is and will continue to be as long as the core and the people in charge remain the same.

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02-10-2009, 10:28 AM
  #30
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I guess I should look the other way about Chicago and Washington as well.
Those teams fired two guys who had losing records and never made the playoffs.

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02-10-2009, 10:30 AM
  #31
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What did Lavs do after winning the Cup with a virtually similar team? Does that count towards his coaching abilities? OK, he gets 10 points for winning the Cup, then loses points for not making the playoffs and getting fired, no? Heck, didn't they miss the playoffs while defending the Stanley Cup, then miss the next season? As for talent...they had 5 20 goal scorers - 3 of whom scored 30 goals (and Cole was darn close with 29). That's not bad talent upfront. What happened? They gave up a lot of goals. Was it the coach or the players?

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02-10-2009, 10:36 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Synergy27 View Post
Fletch, I think the main issue that most of the "haters" have stems from nothing more than the simple location of this forum. We are posting on Hockey's Future boards, where prospects and kids reign supreme, and 2nd round picks are the key to every trade proposal. Unfortunately for the Rangers, they don't really have a young, dynamic, franchise type player to build around, and when it seems as though the rest of the "successful" teams in the league do, people are going to get down on the NYR.
It doesn't "seem" to be that way. It is that way, and it has become that way because of the salary cap. Glen Sather missed the boat on the salary cap, because he obviously doesn't understand that in today's NHL you need to have at least some of your best players to be on rookie contracts, or on their second contract, when they are still young and cheap to pay but produce like superstars (because they are superstars). Then, you have to be ready to unload some of them once they become to expensive and replenish your roster with new affordable youth.

Mind you, this is very difficult, and that is what a cap does. It prevents most teams from continuing to be good all the time. Obviously, a team like Detroit, at least so far, has found a way to make it work and stay good. But we aren't them. No one is.

Quote:
Now, I'm not going to downplay the value of dynamic youth in this league. Ovechkin, Crosby and Malkin are proof enough that that would be a tough road to hoe. But I am going to refute the fact that players like that are absolutely necessary to win. Rags mentioned that "Gomez and Drury would and should never be the focal point of a team". I agree with this statement if you break it down to each player individually, but what I saw (and to an extent still see) when Sather signed those two guys was an attempt to move the team towards the 06-07 Sabres model. Granted, they had a couple of guys having career years that year, but if you look back at that team, they had three legitimate 2nd lines and a very capable 4th line. This team was "scary good", and was supposed to be representative of the style of play that would be successful in the "nu-NHL", and they didn't really have a focal point to speak of. I know Briere scored 95 points that year, but that was a bigtime jump compared to his career production and in my opinion was the result of the compound effects of the system he was playing in and the fact that that team forced you to spread your defense so thin.

Let's compare the current Ranger team to that team:

Gomez = Briere (this can be argued, but it's not outlandish)
Drury IS Drury
Zherdev = Vanek (unfortunately, this isn't quite the case)

And with that third assumption, everything falls apart. Zherdev was supposed to be our Vanek. I think all of us, including Sather, thought we were getting a dynamic goal scorer in Niko, not necessarily a guy with amazing vision that is more of a playmaker. If Zherdev was potting goals as advertised, we would not be having this discussion at all. The question then becomes, in my opinion, is Zherdev not scoring because of the system or because that's not the type of player he is? Also, that Sabres team had a couple of years to play together before coming into their own (check out their 05-06 stats to compare). Can we expect something similar to happen to these Rangers? I think the answers to these questions could be pivotal in molding the future of the club.
I agree that Sather wanted to model this team after the Sabres, or some kind of combination of the Sabres and pre-recent Devils. But it isn't that Zherdev isn't Vanek that is the problem.

It's everyone else.

Sather was banking on the fact that we have all these small, speedy young guys like Buffalo had. The problem was the guys Buffalo had were all talented, while the guys we have are not. We have a bunch of grinders.

We don't have a Pominville, or an Afinogenov (the way he played that season, at least). Callahan is a third liner on a good team, Dawes is probably never going to be an NHL regular because he isn't good enough for top 6 duty and isn't big enough for bottom six duty, IMO. Prucha...well, we all know the story there.

The fact is, as usual, Sather was wrong. Dead wrong. Just like he was when he totally ****ed up this team's future by drafting Montoya and Jessiman. Two consecutive first round picks for a team in DIRE need of high-level prospects he botched. That alone is enough for him to be dismissed. Just like he thought signing Redden would be the answer to our power play woes.

It's getting ridiculous with this team already. And it's only going to get worse. We're going to get passed by other teams. Next season, Boston, NJ, WSH and PHI will all probably be even stronger than they are now (maybe not Boston but they will be a great team still). Pittsburgh will bounce back. Florida is a team on the rise.

We're going to get bypassed until we're stuck battling for the 8th seed.

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02-10-2009, 10:37 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
Those teams fired two guys who had losing records and never made the playoffs.
yeah and they instantly made the team better. Maybe the same could happen here. Renneys ship has sailed here and his players are unresponsive to his bs. time to move on.

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02-10-2009, 10:40 AM
  #34
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What did Lavs do after winning the Cup with a virtually similar team? Does that count towards his coaching abilities? OK, he gets 10 points for winning the Cup, then loses points for not making the playoffs and getting fired, no? Heck, didn't they miss the playoffs while defending the Stanley Cup, then miss the next season? As for talent...they had 5 20 goal scorers - 3 of whom scored 30 goals (and Cole was darn close with 29). That's not bad talent upfront. What happened? They gave up a lot of goals. Was it the coach or the players?
didn't they have alot of injuries up front also. Plus the really didn't have any good dman. I think Lavs got that first team to overachieve by alot, and than injuries undermined the next two years.

Remember: Renney never really had to deal w/ injuries that often. We have been by far one of the healthiest teams since the lockout.

i guess Renney sniffers will credit the teams health to Renney as well instead of the medical trainers, and just luck in general.

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02-10-2009, 10:46 AM
  #35
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Lavs won a cup on a team that really wasnt that stacked. doesn't winning a cup count for anything these days.
Sure it does. But the rest of the body of work with Laviolette and Torterella isn't all that impressive.

And Laviolette's team wasn't stacked? Staal had 100 points. 3 30 goals scorers. 4 guys with 70 points or more? That's not stacked?

Where is this teams E Staal, Vinny Lecavalier, Marty St. Louis, Cory Stillman or Brad Richards? Hell, where's there Justin Williams?


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you make it seem like Renney is the second coming of Christ just because he can get into the playoffs w/ a top 5 goalie and a top 5 player.
When nobody else in the East has done it, that does mean something. Again, a coach that relies on his best player(s), what a concept!

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I'm saying that we would have made the playoffs regardless of the coach b/c we had Jagr and Lundy.
I'm not sure how to respond to this, I can't prove a negative.


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Hell we weren't in PO position last year until Jagr decided to dominate the league again the last month and a half, and carry us through the PO's.
Wow, than how is this team underachiving when they don't have Jagr and Hank has not been Hank.

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And yeah Renney's defensive style was the reason that Jagr broke team records and should have been MVP that year. Or maybe, just maybe it is because Jagr is one of the best players ALL-TIME.
What are you saying here?

and the reason that we didn't make the PO's for a while even w/ good lineups was b/c after Richter departed we didnt have a goalie.

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hey the Devils made the Playoffs all three years after the lockout also and they fired their coach. they are now also one of the best teams in hockey. but according to you firing a coach will make a team worse.
They also afforded their coach what I'm sure was a disappointing season last year.

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I guess I should look the other way about Chicago and Washington as well.
I can only assume you're referring to the coaching change.

I guess I should look away when I don't see an Ovechkin, Kane, Toews, Backstrom. Or a Patrick Sharp.

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02-10-2009, 10:53 AM
  #36
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The fact is, as usual, Sather was wrong. Dead wrong. Just like he was when he totally ****ed up this team's future by drafting Montoya and Jessiman. Two consecutive first round picks for a team in DIRE need of high-level prospects he botched. That alone is enough for him to be dismissed. Just like he thought signing Redden would be the answer to our power play woes.
This is the one thing that you and I consistently agree on. If Sather had gotten those picks right, or even just didn't botch them completely, this team would have been so much better off. I'm finally coming to terms with the fact that I will never, ever, ever, be able to get over passing on Parise. It ****ing kills me to see him in that uniform over there.

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02-10-2009, 11:08 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
Sure it does. But the rest of the body of work with Laviolette and Torterella isn't all that impressive.

And Laviolette's team wasn't stacked? Staal had 100 points. 3 30 goals scorers. 4 guys with 70 points or more? That's not stacked?

Where is this teams E Staal, Vinny Lecavalier, Marty St. Louis, Cory Stillman or Brad Richards? Hell, where's there Justin Williams?
No I don't think that that team was stacked. I think that was a good team, but they were also weak on the blueline. Lavs I think did a hell of a job getting the most out of his players.

as for Torts - please let me know where I mentioned him. I will agree that that TB team was stacked.


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When nobody else in the East has done it, that does mean something. Again, a coach that relies on his best player(s), what a concept!
I'm not saying a coach shouldn't. I just think you are giving Renney WAY to much credit.


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Wow, than how is this team underachiving when they don't have Jagr and Hank has not been Hank.
B/c this team is always pinned in their zone. Because Renney just wants the team to fall back and play defense instead of at least having them try to pressure the other team. He coaches scared, and coaches for the 0-0 tie so we can go to a SO.



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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
What are you saying here?

and the reason that we didn't make the PO's for a while even w/ good lineups was b/c after Richter departed we didnt have a goalie.
I'm saying that the 02-03 team should have made the PO's if it wasn't for Richter getting injured. We only missed the PO's by 5 points. Richter only played in 13 games. Surely he was better than Blackburn, and Dunham even though Dunham did have a good year. But Blackburn didn't. I'm saying that the 03-04 team would have been much better and competitive if we had a good goaile. and who knows maybe they could've squeeked in.


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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
I can only assume you're referring to the coaching change.

I guess I should look away when I don't see an Ovechkin, Kane, Toews, Backstrom. Or a Patrick Sharp.
or you can look and see that teams were underachieving and a coach made them better. Especially washington who was going nowhere until Boudreau took the helm.

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02-10-2009, 11:08 AM
  #38
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He's made the playoffs three straight years and won two playoff series all with teams less talented then the teams that preceded the lockout.

How many coaches in the East made the playoffs every year since the lockout? How teams have?
2? Rangers and Devils? Oh wait. Coaches? 1. Tom Renney.

The worst offense in the league and 6th in the conference. Somebody is doing something right. Maybe Renney is doing an amazing job with what he has to work with?

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02-10-2009, 11:10 AM
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2? Rangers and Devils? Oh wait. Coaches? 1. Tom Renney.

The worst offense in the league and 6th in the conference. Somebody is doing something right. Maybe Renney is doing an amazing job with what he has to work with?
Actually, it was 3 the Rangers, Devils and Sens.

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02-10-2009, 11:10 AM
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2? Rangers and Devils? Oh wait. Coaches? 1. Tom Renney.

The worst offense in the league and 6th in the conference. Somebody is doing something right. Maybe Renney is doing an amazing job with what he has to work with?
For once, we agree.

What point is there in firing him? This roster sucks. No coach will change that.

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02-10-2009, 11:21 AM
  #41
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No I don't think that that team was stacked. I think that was a good team, but they were also weak on the blueline. Lavs I think did a hell of a job getting the most out of his players.

as for Torts - please let me know where I mentioned him. I will agree that that TB team was stacked.
We'll have to agree to disagree on the Canes. And I mention Torts because take out the Cup and he has a very pedestrian record with great talent.



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I'm not saying a coach shouldn't. I just think you are giving Renney WAY to much credit.
And I'm saying he's not getting enough. Every coach relies on his best player(s)

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B/c this team is always pinned in their zone. Because Renney just wants the team to fall back and play defense instead of at least having them try to pressure the other team. He coaches scared, and coaches for the 0-0 tie so we can go to a SO.
They lost 4 of their 8 top scorers. Four of which were forwards. Those four were replaced by only two players who had established NHL careers.


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I'm saying that the 02-03 team should have made the PO's if it wasn't for Richter getting injured. We only missed the PO's by 5 points. Richter only played in 13 games. Surely he was better than Blackburn, and Dunham even though Dunham did have a good year. But Blackburn didn't. I'm saying that the 03-04 team would have been much better and competitive if we had a good goaile. and who knows maybe they could've squeeked in.
So? Where's this teams Leetch, Messier and Graves?

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or you can look and see that teams were underachieving and a coach made them better. Especially washington who was going nowhere until Boudreau took the helm.
Or you can see they fired coaches with losing records who had never made the playoffs.

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02-10-2009, 11:35 AM
  #42
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We'll have to agree to disagree on the Canes. And I mention Torts because take out the Cup and he has a very pedestrian record with great talent.
I agree about torts, although I do give him small benefit b/c he really didn't have even an NHL caliber goalie the last couple years let alone a starter. but I'm not sold on him being a great coach.

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And I'm saying he's not getting enough. Every coach relies on his best player(s) They lost 4 of their 8 top scorers. Four of which were forwards. Those four were replaced by only two players who had established NHL careers.
I'm not denying any of this. But it is almost impossible to get talent b/c of our bad contracts. We really can't change our roster all that much. Maybe a coach can get more out of this team than Renney? Is that so hard to believe? I really think this team has given up, and not responding to Renney at all, and that Renney just does utilize players to their full potential all the time. Again look at Matt Cullen and lack of time on the point in the PP.

It's too hard (probably impossible) to change this roster. So change the coach. maybe somebody can do more, and if not than maybe we can start changing the roster.



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So? Where's this teams Leetch, Messier and Graves?
Still developing, Omsk, and Hartford.

I actually think that Cally or Dubi could develop into a Graves. I really think Byers could as well and unfortunately he is injured.

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Or you can see they fired coaches with losing records who had never made the playoffs.
again though, a change in coaches made the difference. maybe the same can happen here.

Another example but different sport: The Mets. They were dead under Randolph. Just gave up on him. Manuel took over and they did great, until they were undermined by Wagners injury. Again sometimes its as easy as finding the right coach for the players you have.


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02-10-2009, 01:18 PM
  #43
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Another example but different sport: The Mets. They were dead under Randolph. Just gave up on him. Manuel took over and they did great, until they were undermined by Wagners injury. Again sometimes its as easy as finding the right coach for the players you have.
The Mets example I don't see being comparable. There was an epic collapse and then pretty much the same team didn't respond the following season. But there was a body of work there to measure performance against.

In Renney's case, there was no collapse. And there really isn't a body of work for this team to measure against.

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02-10-2009, 01:31 PM
  #44
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Rags...

first, I will give you that Renney's had to deal with few injuries. This season, the defense has lost about five man games, with noone in the top four missing a game (except Girardi missed one, I believe). Up front, it's been extremely limited. So that should work to a coach's benefit.

Did the 'Canes have injuries? I don't know, but if they lost any significant amount of time due to injuries it is then quite remarkable they would be able to have the number of 20 goal scorers they did have.

I don't disagree Lavs didn't do a good job in year they won. Everything seemed to go right. But if we're going to talk about the great job he did getting the Cup, then something needs to be said of the next two seasons in which he didn't make the playoffs despite having producing players. Most will say goaltending, I'm guessing, and then you get into a big debate regarding Renney - was it him or was it Jagr and Lundqvist? If it's Jagr and Lundqvist, why isn't it reasonable to say that Cam Ward had a career run and he was in large part the reason, not Lavs?

Did they have anyone on defense? I dunno, but was it really that much worse than the collection of individuals the Rangers had? With the way Malik was treated by fans it's surprising the team ever won a game with him on the ice; ditto Poti, and heck, why not throw Rozy into the mix too. And since Redden sucks so much, how can the Rangers' goals against still be in the top 10?

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02-10-2009, 01:35 PM
  #45
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Singn'...

this is a great line for another debate: "So? Where's this teams Leetch, Messier and Graves?".

I gotta tell you, perhaps I'm just getting old, but that statement (add Richter) says a lot to me. Four guys who were cornerstone to some very good teams played for 10+ years each, and mostly together, on the same team. I was speaking to Matteau last week and we were talking about how it's just not the same (perhaps as when we were young - he and I turn 40 this year in the same month). I don't know what it is, but it's tough getting that same connection. Boy I miss watching a defenseman go end to end and back to the other end. I have to say that's something that is missing, for sure.

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02-10-2009, 01:45 PM
  #46
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Very nice post.

I honestly think that all of the high expectations came from the great start of this season. Nobody saw them starting out playing and winning the way they did... And it sparked confidence. As soon as they slipped below that level, it was frustrating, because people knew the team could play better.

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02-10-2009, 01:45 PM
  #47
n8
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What did Popeye ever do to you?

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02-10-2009, 01:47 PM
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Fletch
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sorry to the Popeye fans...I saw so many "I hate" threads that I remember a Popeye skit with Olive Oyl saying "I Love Popeye" - so I just turned it around on him. Yeah, my mind is mush if I'm thinking like that.

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02-10-2009, 01:56 PM
  #49
DontStepanMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
first, I will give you that Renney's had to deal with few injuries. This season, the defense has lost about five man games, with noone in the top four missing a game (except Girardi missed one, I believe). Up front, it's been extremely limited. So that should work to a coach's benefit.

Did the 'Canes have injuries? I don't know, but if they lost any significant amount of time due to injuries it is then quite remarkable they would be able to have the number of 20 goal scorers they did have.

I don't disagree Lavs didn't do a good job in year they won. Everything seemed to go right. But if we're going to talk about the great job he did getting the Cup, then something needs to be said of the next two seasons in which he didn't make the playoffs despite having producing players. Most will say goaltending, I'm guessing, and then you get into a big debate regarding Renney - was it him or was it Jagr and Lundqvist? If it's Jagr and Lundqvist, why isn't it reasonable to say that Cam Ward had a career run and he was in large part the reason, not Lavs?

Did they have anyone on defense? I dunno, but was it really that much worse than the collection of individuals the Rangers had? With the way Malik was treated by fans it's surprising the team ever won a game with him on the ice; ditto Poti, and heck, why not throw Rozy into the mix too. And since Redden sucks so much, how can the Rangers' goals against still be in the top 10?
the year after the cup they were missing Stillman, and only had 1 dman play all 82 games. In fact besides Commodore the next highest was Wesley w/ 68. There defense was injured the entire season. Plus the regular d-men just weren't that good to begin with. I mean look at the 06-07 roster. Forwards wise it was pretty good and solid but d-wise it was a disaster. http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/l...009792007.html

and they still only missed the playoffs by 4 points. not too bad despite all the injuries.

07-08 - they were missing Cole, Whitney, Brindy, Cullen, Stillmen, and basically every forward for alot of time.

In fact only Staal played every game on the ENTIRE team. the next highest forward of significance was Cole w/ 73. that's an 8th of a season missed. In fact they only had 3 forwards play over 70 games at all. Staal, Letowski, and Cole. And again their defense was atrocious. Not really anybody who I would want to be on the Rangers except for Corvo.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/l...009792008.html

so yeah I actually think that the Rangers defense was better than them. plus we didn't deal w/ any of those injuries as the Canes did.

and again they only missed the PO's by 2 points last season despite all those injuries to their forwards.

If anything I think that Lavs overcame all those injuries and made them overachieve.

Imagine one season losing almost all our forwards in Drury, Gomez, Nazzy, Dubi, Cally for at least 14 games.

Imagine another season where only staal plays 82 games and the rest of the dmen shuffle around as you are always missing most of your d core.

Renney wouldn't even sniff the PO's if he had to deal w/ injuries like that. And that's even w/ the BETTER goalie in Lundy.


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