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Niedermayer and Pronger

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Old
02-11-2009, 02:38 PM
  #26
txpd
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Originally Posted by Drake1588 View Post
I'd rather see the Caps lose in the first/second round, personally.
That is priceless, Drake. I agree with Alzner not being traded. With a little luck the Caps can keep all their top prospects and picks, the Flyers can get Pronger while the Caps finish as the 3 seed. Its a nice set up for the Caps losing in the first round again.

Pronger for Carlson and a 1st
or
Osala, Morrisonn and a 1st.

That I would do and go for the cup. Alzner??? No...no chance.

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02-11-2009, 02:43 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by ericnut View Post
You may not be willing to move Alzner for Pronger but your GM might.
I really doubt that. Alzner is a way to make the salary cap work for several years.
There are many Caps fans that are as attached to Carlson as they are Alzner, but I think Carlson could be had just because of where his developement is compared to Carlson.

I doubt the Ducks will get an offer of an Alzner like player from another team. Ask the Flyers if they will part with Coburn?

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02-11-2009, 02:47 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by 10 ft. pole View Post
Ducks would need defensive depth back the only team I can think of that has this luxury is not an option.
Sorry...just catching up here. Whats the plan? Overnight(one offseason) turn around or rebuild with prospects and 1st round picks?

Washington current has 9 defensemen in the NHL if you count Pothier(nearing recovery from LTIR). Poti and Pothier are over 30. The rest are 25 or under.
They have a system overstocked with quality defense prospects at all levels.

Morrisonn or Schultz off the NHL roster. Lepisto or Godfrey from AHL. Carlson or Finley not professional yet. You pick. How many?

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02-11-2009, 02:55 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by txpd View Post
That is priceless, Drake. I agree with Alzner not being traded. With a little luck the Caps can keep all their top prospects and picks, the Flyers can get Pronger while the Caps finish as the 3 seed. Its a nice set up for the Caps losing in the first round again.

Pronger for Carlson and a 1st
or
Osala, Morrisonn and a 1st.

That I would do and go for the cup. Alzner??? No...no chance.
Moving Carlson would be on par or even worse than moving Alzner.

I'd rather lose Fehr, Bouchard or Bourque before Osala.

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02-11-2009, 03:25 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by txpd View Post
There are many Caps fans that are as attached to Carlson as they are Alzner, but I think Carlson could be had just because of where his developement is compared to Carlson.
They were drafted exactly 1 year apart from one another, how are their developments much different? Every indication from camp and from his OHL season suggests Carlson is as NHL ready as Alzner was at this time last year if not more so. I fully expect Carlson to turn pro next season and I'd be willing to bet that he sees time in the NHL. I think the Caps would regret moving a guy like Carlson who's on an entry level deal that doesn't have bonus money attached to it, it's a flat 875K unlike Alzner who has a 7 figure cap hit. Carlson looks like a stud and honestly I don't think the Caps are quite ready to make a run at a cup just yet. They're more than Chris Pronger away and I just think it'd be a mistake to give up on a kid who's going to make an impact on an NHL roster within the next 2 or 3 years at the latest. That's just my opinion though and I would almost kill for Pronger, but it just seems like it's a deal that could be done without moving our top D prospect, especially with little depth at the Defense position coming behind Carlson.

Joe Finley is a guy I'd move for Pronger. I'd even move Osala for Pronger. I'd move any prospect not named Carlson or Varlamov(I'm not including Alzner as a prospect anymore). I think a deal could be worked out with Anaheim without losing John Carlson.

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02-11-2009, 03:29 PM
  #31
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Well, I'll just tell you that to get, you have to give. If you think McPhee can turn Lepisto and Bouchard into the same player he can turn Carlson and a 1st into, you are into the homer koolaid too much.

Sure, I would be doing hand springs if McPhee could do that. If Pronger means the Caps have a legit chance at the Cup, would you prefer to spend Carlson or wait til next season?

If Carlson is more valuable than Alzner, then I am fine with trading Alzner then.

Tarik(Post beat writer) commented just the other day that the team(front office) is starting to think this is there season. Do you tell them to cool their jets? Are they wrong? I think the Caps would not regret trading Carlson for Pronger if Pronger got them to the finals this season or next. As good as either Alzner is or Carlson might be, neither bring Pronger's level to the table.

How much better does it get than a 2 seed?


Last edited by txpd: 02-11-2009 at 03:36 PM.
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Old
02-11-2009, 05:13 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by ColincampbellOscopy View Post
I don't think the Caps are quite ready to make a run at a cup just yet. They're more than Chris Pronger away and I just think it'd be a mistake to give up on a kid who's going to make an impact on an NHL roster within the next 2 or 3 years at the latest.

That's just my opinion though and I would almost kill for Pronger, but it just seems like it's a deal that could be done without moving our top D prospect, especially with little depth at the Defense position coming behind Carlson.

Joe Finley is a guy I'd move for Pronger. I'd even move Osala for Pronger. I'd move any prospect not named Carlson or Varlamov(I'm not including Alzner as a prospect anymore). I think a deal could be worked out with Anaheim without losing John Carlson.
No offense - but your post is contradictory. You'd kill for Pronger, but you have 3 prospects who you wouldn't include? You have one of the youngest bluelines in the league - do you really need to have Carlson if Alzer turns out to be as good as he's looked so far? I understand that it's always nice to have a guy like Carlson waiting in the wings, but the goal is to win the Stanley Cup - right?

And like Txpd said - how much better do you expect the team to get? The opportunity to add one of the top 5 d-men in the league, and a guy who was a key contributor on a Cup winning team, is pretty rare. If the Caps add Pronger, I think they'd be if not the favorite to come out of the east, at least tied with BOS and head and shoulders favorites to make it to at least the ECF.

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Old
02-11-2009, 05:20 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Bonkers View Post
Kevin Bieksa
Alex Edler
Mason Raymond
Cody Hodgson
Cory Schneider
1st

For

both
done deal. except take out cody hodgson since he's "untouchable"

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02-11-2009, 05:20 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by txpd View Post
Well, I'll just tell you that to get, you have to give. If you think McPhee can turn Lepisto and Bouchard into the same player he can turn Carlson and a 1st into, you are into the homer koolaid too much.

Sure, I would be doing hand springs if McPhee could do that. If Pronger means the Caps have a legit chance at the Cup, would you prefer to spend Carlson or wait til next season?

If Carlson is more valuable than Alzner, then I am fine with trading Alzner then.

Tarik(Post beat writer) commented just the other day that the team(front office) is starting to think this is there season. Do you tell them to cool their jets? Are they wrong?

How much better does it get than a 2 seed?

If you're under the impression that Alex Ovechkin/Mike Green/Nick Backstrom/Karl Alzner are only good for 2 runs at a cup then you make the deal. I don't happen to think that the cup window is closing, in fact I don't think it's even opened yet. We don't have the experience of a Boston or New Jersey. I'd love to get Pronger but I don't think our window is going to legitimately open until next season after one more run in the postseason. Pronger could expedite that process, but it could also mean that our window, much like Pittsburgh, could close way earlier than we would like. If you could get Pronger moving a guy like Jeff Schultz and Joe Finley or Tomas Flieschmann or Eric Fehr along with a 1st or two that would be the much more preferred route. I don't think you go trading away a blue chip 6'3 dman who's physical, can provide offense, and is a right hand shot for a 2 year run when your best players are all under 25.

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02-11-2009, 05:21 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post
Given that Neidermayer's entire reason for signing with Anaheim was wanting to move west, and given that he has shown limited interest in a playing hockey much longer, I'd be willing to bet that he'd retire before acccepting a trade east.

And, of course, Pronger has made it pretty clear that he'll force trades is the NHL city in question does not meet the needs of his family. So, moving him might not be as easy as it sounds, despite the reality that he is a generational talent.

Most of the other teams listed above are so close to the cap, that the only workable solution would be for the Ducks to take on a lot of expensive vets in exchange.

I'll predict, that Neidermayer retires a Duck, whereas Pronger at least plays out his contract there. After that, who knows?
Niedermayer will not retire in the middle of the season, and given what happened last year he should go where we send him.

Teams will pay the price for defensemen, we've seen it a number of times at the trade deadline.

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02-11-2009, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by EroCaps View Post
Moving Carlson would be on par or even worse than moving Alzner.

I'd rather lose Fehr, Bouchard or Bourque before Osala.
Of course you would, you don't want to give up anything good.

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02-11-2009, 05:22 PM
  #37
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Lupul, Nodl, Jones, 1st for Pronger

Could include Alberts or Kukkonen if desired.

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02-11-2009, 05:39 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by ColincampbellOscopy View Post
If you're under the impression that Alex Ovechkin/Mike Green/Nick Backstrom/Karl Alzner are only good for 2 runs at a cup then you make the deal. I don't happen to think that the cup window is closing, in fact I don't think it's even opened yet. We don't have the experience of a Boston or New Jersey. I'd love to get Pronger but I don't think our window is going to legitimately open until next season after one more run in the postseason. Pronger could expedite that process, but it could also mean that our window, much like Pittsburgh, could close way earlier than we would like. If you could get Pronger moving a guy like Jeff Schultz and Joe Finley or Tomas Flieschmann or Eric Fehr along with a 1st or two that would be the much more preferred route. I don't think you go trading away a blue chip 6'3 dman who's physical, can provide offense, and is a right hand shot for a 2 year run when your best players are all under 25.
We have no idea how long the window stays open. For the window to be open this season the Caps need what they don't have, which is a 1st pair defenseman with the experience on the blue line to lead an otherwise young defense to that level.

If McPhee does not make that kind of move, when does the Caps window open? How much experience do Alzner and Carlson need to give the Caps still young defense the overall experiece to open the window?

It won't be next year. Probably not for three of four seasons. Even then the Caps won't have a single defenseman that can bring to kind of Cup level experience along with top of the lineup talent that Pronger does now.

What Pronger brings now or whenever is something you can't get through the draft. Look at SJ. They have had a lot of good young D in there, but there bounce to the top came with Dan Boyle and Rob Blake.

Again, the suggestion is that the Caps can afford to part with one of their top prospects to get a player like Pronger. Not all of them. Not gutting their system. Not mortgaging their future.

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Old
02-11-2009, 05:46 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by BiLLY_ShOE1721 View Post
Lupul, Nodl, Jones, 1st for Pronger

Could include Alberts or Kukkonen if desired.
Don't want/need Lupul, start with Giroux or JVR or Parent.

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02-11-2009, 05:57 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by txpd View Post
We have no idea how long the window stays open. For the window to be open this season the Caps need what they don't have, which is a 1st pair defenseman with the experience on the blue line to lead an otherwise young defense to that level.

If McPhee does not make that kind of move, when does the Caps window open? How much experience do Alzner and Carlson need to give the Caps still young defense the overall experiece to open the window?

It won't be next year. Probably not for three of four seasons. Even then the Caps won't have a single defenseman that can bring to kind of Cup level experience along with top of the lineup talent that Pronger does now.

What Pronger brings now or whenever is something you can't get through the draft. Look at SJ. They have had a lot of good young D in there, but there bounce to the top came with Dan Boyle and Rob Blake.

Again, the suggestion is that the Caps can afford to part with one of their top prospects to get a player like Pronger. Not all of them. Not gutting their system. Not mortgaging their future.
True, Pronger would be the ultimate, exactly what we need. Although we're still talking about a guy we don't have the money for right now. I'm just very hesitant to trade away our only "guarantee"(at least in my opinion) blueline prospect when I don't think he'd make or break the deal.

If the organization truely believes that they have it in them this year or next to be a bonifide cup contender, not just a contender to reach the finals, a contender to win the thing, they have to go for it. I don't want to part with Carlson, I don't think we'd have to give him up to get Pronger, but if we do we do I guess. You want to win the cup, it's just that Carlson parting would hurt because we literally have no possible top 4 D in our system after him. Finley as a top 4 is a reach if he fully maxes out, but we'd literally have no one else and with the 1st round pick it would cost on top of that we're really setting back our defensive prospect pool a number of years. But the ultimate goal is the cup so, I guess you do what you have to. I'm very interested to see what GMGM does.

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02-11-2009, 06:10 PM
  #41
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The Caps need about $1.2m in cap space to fit the remainder of Pronger's contract for this season. Right now, they have that space with Clark on LTIR.

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02-11-2009, 11:13 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by txpd View Post
The Caps need about $1.2m in cap space to fit the remainder of Pronger's contract for this season. Right now, they have that space with Clark on LTIR.
I was under the impression that his entire salary had to be "counted" because we haven't been accumulating dollars over the entire year. As in we should have to have room for a 6.25 million dollar player's entire hit because we've been over the cap the whole season. I'm pretty sure we have to move something like a 4 million dollar guy out before we could bring in a guy with Pronger's salary.

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02-11-2009, 11:33 PM
  #43
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Paetsch and MacArthur for Moen and Huskins

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02-12-2009, 04:32 AM
  #44
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Nieds will get no less than a 1st and a prospect, Pronger will get a young roster player, prospect, and a 1st with maybe more picks.

That is, if the Ducks want to rebuild. I don't think it's that bad there.
I don't get all the Anaheim = sellers proposals either.They're in just as good or better shape than most of the teams that are looking to them for a playoff boost deal.
As of this moment they sit 5th in the west. Pretty sure the top 8 in each conference get invites to the dance.

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02-12-2009, 04:35 AM
  #45
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I don't get all the Anaheim = sellers proposals either.They're in just as good or better shape than most of the teams that are looking to them for a playoff boost deal.
As of this moment they sit 5th in the west. Pretty sure the top 8 in each conference get invites to the dance.
Yeah but looking at this team, it isn't that good most of the time, realistically we need a top 4 d and maybe a 2nd line center, which we don't have the prospect depth to acquire most likely.

I don't think most of us are going to be satisfied with squeeking in and losing early again, then seeing Niedermayer retire and get nothing in return

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02-12-2009, 06:29 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by ColincampbellOscopy View Post
I was under the impression that his entire salary had to be "counted" because we haven't been accumulating dollars over the entire year. As in we should have to have room for a 6.25 million dollar player's entire hit because we've been over the cap the whole season. I'm pretty sure we have to move something like a 4 million dollar guy out before we could bring in a guy with Pronger's salary.
I asked this question of Vogel on Caps report yesterday. The Caps are not on the hook for money's paid already, nor are they liable for the $1.2m he is owed this season. What I think you are considering is that the Caps next season would be cap hit for the entire lenth of the contract on average. Not just the years left on it.

So, Nylander's cap hit for next season and the year after only would be lower than his actual cap hit because his salary drops off in the last season.

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02-12-2009, 08:33 AM
  #47
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I could see the Hawks being interested in Nieds, for the playoff run, and that's it.

Not sure what we'd have to give up.

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02-12-2009, 09:42 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by txpd View Post
That is priceless, Drake. I agree with Alzner not being traded. With a little luck the Caps can keep all their top prospects and picks, the Flyers can get Pronger while the Caps finish as the 3 seed. Its a nice set up for the Caps losing in the first round again.

Pronger for Carlson and a 1st
or
Osala, Morrisonn and a 1st.

That I would do and go for the cup. Alzner??? No...no chance.
Pronger for Carlson and a 1st: I would probably do this, reluctantly. Pronger is worth it.

Osala, Morrisonn and a 1st: I would do this and not lose much sleep over it. Osala is going to be a good player, but it's Pronger.

I agree with the above from Darth: Pronger is a generational talent, and I believe that he's only lost a little bit off his game.

As much as the Caps would benefit from Pronger, shoring up their area of greatest need, Alzner should and probably is untouchable, though. Losing him is not worth winning an extra round or two, not unless you have great confidence that it makes you a Cup favorite, and I believe the Caps with Pronger still look to be an inferior team to Detroit and San Jose, and maybe only on par with the Devils and Bruins.

(This is all conveniently ignoring the fact that the Caps would have to trade Nylander before acquiring Pronger, of course, and that is easier said than done.)

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02-12-2009, 09:48 AM
  #49
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I'll disagree. I started following hockey back in 1972 (first year of the Isles!) and got to watch some of the all time greats at their best: Potvin, Salming, Big Bird, Park, Borque, etc. I'd put Pronger up with any of those guys, as far as dominating in his own end. He was maybe a notch or two below the best offensively, but Pronger in his prime would be a Norris contender at virtually any point in recent NHL history - and that makes him a generational talent in my book.
Well I only started watch hockey around 1979...And I remember Potvin, Bourque and Robinson very well.

I think think that statement is a little over the top. No way is Pronger in the class of those players. I mean, those are the Best of the Best and Pronger just isn't there.

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