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TSN announcers on Carbonneau

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Old
02-14-2009, 08:15 PM
  #26
Turtleneck Plek
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RushDP View Post
As much as I think Carbo is a reactionary coach and has not developed a system the players can revert to when they are down, McGuire destroying him on national TV is low.

Last year he was worshiping Carbo on the air and outright said he was the Jack Adams recipient and this year he ripped him up. It is the same coach with the same skills and the same annoying habits of line juggling as last season. That is why McGuire has no credibility IMO. He has knowledge no doubt but he bides his time and changes his opinion at a whim.

The "book is out on Huet" is the perfect example. He recently ripped into Huet because he sits behind the suddenly good Khabibulin now. He waited years to be able to say "I told you so". He took great pleasure in patting himself on the back for that one.
You're gonna tell me that the guy doesn't have the right to change his opinion? That's BS.

Let's take another example. I'm pretty sure you were praising Kovalev this time last year. This year, you probably smite the hell out of him. But he's still the same player, with the same skillset and the same flaws. So you shouldn't be ragging on him because you can't change your opinion of him from last year. It's the same thing with Carbo. Maybe he coached great last year, which by the way, is very debatable, but if he stinks this year, he stinks...that's all.

McGuire has every right to critic Carbo if need be. And right now, he's completely right to do so.

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02-14-2009, 08:26 PM
  #27
Mats NAslund
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Originally Posted by doug mckenzie View Post
last year he was a hero .


classic example of beat em while there down .
He didn't try and play a 1 2 2 system last year. For whatever reason he's gotten way off from being an aggressive type offence to sitting back and trying to counter attack.

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02-14-2009, 08:30 PM
  #28
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The weird thing is, when Koivu's line was on the ice they executed the system well. When the other 3 lines went over the boards and looked like the keystone cops, Macguire blamed the system. 1-2-2 still requires you to skate and play physical. The rest of the team completely screwed it up.

Any system can work if executed well. Blame Carbo for the execution but that exact system got us a convincing win in Detroit earlier this year.

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Old
02-14-2009, 08:34 PM
  #29
JudasPriced
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Originally Posted by Lafontaine View Post
How many seasons of professional coaching do you have under your belt?
About the same amount as Pierre McGuire.

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02-14-2009, 08:36 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by CaptainKoivu11 View Post
About the same amount as Pierre McGuire.


Check your facts.

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Old
02-14-2009, 08:39 PM
  #31
Galchenyuk x 27
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Originally Posted by CaptainKoivu11 View Post
About the same amount as Pierre McGuire.
im pretty sure he's got more than you

"After the 1992 season, McGuire moved to the Hartford Whalers organization for two years where he served as an assistant coach, assistant general manager and eventually head coach"

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Old
02-14-2009, 08:48 PM
  #32
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I don't need Pierre Maguire to tell me whats wrong with this team, we can see it ourselves. Regardless of what Pierre said, its TV, its a business, as soon as money is involved, you can't just trust what he says. There's always other motives, they need viewers, they want people to notice what they're saying.

The Montreal Canadiens is a business thats not ran by a team of monkeys. They are profitable and do well because there are great people running it. Even if Carbo is making a mistake by running his team a certain way, others within the organization will notice. If Carbo is using this system, he has his reasons even if it doesn't make sense to us. We don't know what goes on in the dressing room, we just don't know. I would refrain from bashing Carbo until at least we know a little more of whats going in that dressing room, whats wrong with the players. Just because I'm not happy the team is losing, doesn't mean I should start pointing fingers without much knowledge or arguments to backup my accusations. Need facts, not just assumptions. Why don't we just sit back and wait and see what Gainey does, if the Habs make the playoffs, if they pull themselves out of this slump, if there's a change of staff...

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02-14-2009, 08:49 PM
  #33
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I stand corrected. No wonder the Whalers died.

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Old
02-14-2009, 08:59 PM
  #34
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Why is everyone so uptight about what Mcguire said? He merely gave his professional opinion from the viewpoint that he is entitled to have after all his years in pro hockey, would everyone have liked it better if he said everything was great? The bottom line is that we only won last night because halak stopped 45 freakin shots!!!!! Don't expect him to do that every night and nor should he . Part of the blame for all the shots was the lack of attack after the second goal, and in my opinion that was the coach!!!.

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02-14-2009, 09:06 PM
  #35
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what is he supposed to say??? great system Carbo has the team playing right now? lol . getting outshot and outplayed every night. Pierre was right on with his remarks

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Old
02-14-2009, 09:08 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by habdynasty View Post
what is he supposed to say??? great system Carbo has the team playing right now? lol . getting outshot and outplayed every night. Pierre was right on with his remarks
people just love to hate.
McGuire was spot on with his remarks.

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Old
02-14-2009, 09:08 PM
  #37
RushDP
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Originally Posted by Akost View Post
You're gonna tell me that the guy doesn't have the right to change his opinion? That's BS.

Let's take another example. I'm pretty sure you were praising Kovalev this time last year. This year, you probably smite the hell out of him. But he's still the same player, with the same skillset and the same flaws. So you shouldn't be ragging on him because you can't change your opinion of him from last year. It's the same thing with Carbo. Maybe he coached great last year, which by the way, is very debatable, but if he stinks this year, he stinks...that's all.

McGuire has every right to critic Carbo if need be. And right now, he's completely right to do so.
No McGuire does not have the luxury of changing his opinion. He bases his opinion on his self professed superior knowledge of the game, his assessment of the abilities of coaches and players and goes on record stating his opinion publicly. He does not get a Mulligan because he is paid to be a professional evaluator. Does he get to praise Carbo if we go 9-2 in the next 11 and take back what he said?

Carbo is exactly the same coach he was last season. What is he doing differently? How can he be amazing last season and terrible this season? McGuire changes his opinion as the wind turns.

I was praising Kovy last season. I am not ripping into Kovy this season. While I believe he outdid himself last season he is now doing what he has always done throughout his career. He is delivering what I expected because I did not expect him to repeat last years exploits. How could he? It was his second best career year and he is one year older.

I am of the opinion that Kovy and the young core players that stepped up last season were the cause of our success and not Carbo. I believe these same guys took a step back this season and coupled with a lot of injuries we are regressing.

I believe Carbo is not a good coach. He wasn't last year and he is not this year. That does not give McGuire the right to critic him...especially since he was never as successful a coach as Carbo's record implies he is. It is one thing to change your mind and another to run down a coach on national TV. That shows a lack of respect and class. At least wait until the season is lost before putting your foot in your mouth if you are a national sports broadcaster.

Besides, I think McGuire is a tool based on his insistence that the unsigned UFA's and Streit are the reasons for our demise. Only a simpleton can come up with that analysis.

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Old
02-14-2009, 09:11 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by doug mckenzie View Post
last year he was a hero .


classic example of beat em while there down .
Was he?

I remember most analysts and people saying without our PP, we wouldn't go too far.
The PP and our Goalies had to be close to perfect every night for us to win.

I wouldn't attribute much of the success our team had last year to Carbo's coaching skills.
Just like I'm not putting our bad slump solely on his shoulders either.

All in all, I think Carbo is a very green coach that still needs a lot of learning. How quickly he'll learn is up to him, but I think he still hasn't identified the correct system for this team.

The first obvious thing to do would be to bring in a defensive coach because our D has been quite pathetic for the past few years. Even last year when most thought we had one of the best D in the East, we were 5th worst in terms of most Shots Against. The year before that, we were 3rd worst, and this year we're 12th.


Last edited by Kriss E: 02-14-2009 at 09:19 PM.
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Old
02-14-2009, 09:21 PM
  #39
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Three years Carbo has been coach. It`s two years out of three that the team takes a nose dive after the holidays. This year we gotta see just how hard they hit the pavement.

I know the first year the flu decimated the team. This year is it the injuries or is it something else? We had extra players and MaxPac & D'ago have filled in fairly well so we can't lay this slide solely on the injuries.

I think another problem is we have players up here that should still be in the A or were brought up too early: Lats, Price, O'Byrne, MaxPac, S. Kostitsyn. Add to that the fact it's Halak's first full year and we see a small segment of the team is not completely NHL proof.

You add the fact that Plekanac, Komi, Kovalev and Higgins are having subpar seasons, to say the least, and you start to get a picture of what's going on.

This is not to completely exonerate Carbo & the coaching staff. They've added to problem by not responding adequately but I don't think they're the whole problem.

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Old
02-15-2009, 02:31 AM
  #40
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pierre was spot on with all of his comments last night. and he did give credit to carbo for taking the timeout after a long shift + icing at a critical point in the second period. but come on...anyone who praises carbo after last night's game wasn't watching the game.

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Old
02-15-2009, 03:24 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Ross MacLochness View Post
At one point he said if he's Carbo he looks at the game tape and "blows up this 1-2-2 because it's clearly not working"
Hello, is anyone out there?

Does anyone listen to Carbo during the post-game interviews? He clearly is NOT a fan of the passive game, and he FREQUENTLY calls out his players for not skating more and not forechecking harder.

The question of playing 2-1-2 vs. 1-2-2 is a question of reading the play. If you have no chance at getting the puck on the forecheck, because you just changed lines, or because you dumped it in out of desperation rather than as an attacking play, almost every coach in the league will prefer the 1-2-2. Some prefer the 1-2-2 in almost all cases, but Carbonneau is not in this group.

The trap is indeed a 1-2-2 system. However, there is a big difference between an AGGRESSIVE 1-2-2 (such as the trap) and a passive 1-2-2 (basically the rope-a-dope). Carbonneau's system is to play an aggressive 2-1-2 forecheck when the circumstances allow, and to play an aggressive 1-2-2 trap when they don't.

The problem is execution, in particular skating as a five-man unit. When the team is not skating, the opportunities for a successful forecheck are low, and the SAME lack of skating makes for a passive 1-2-2. If the feet are not moving, it is almost impossible to trap the opponents and steal the puck. The puck ends up instead in the Habs' defensive zone.

Our checking system in the center ice area and the offensive zone is very much similar to what Scotty Bowman taught and which produced teams that scored 350 goals per year. Success is a matter of how well you skate and how badly you want to recover the puck.

At another time, I will break down the defensive zone approach. This, in my opinion, is where the Habs of 2009 are playing a much inferior system to the Habs of the 1970s, 1980s and early 1990s. Here's one little clue for anyone with some videotapes or DVD's or a PVR recording of the recent vintage games shown on ESPN Classic: look at the difference in how our DEFENCEMEN react to a shoot-in compared to how Savard, Robinson, Lapointe, Engblom, Chelios, Svoboda, Green, Ludwig, Desjardins, Schneider and the others reacted. (2nd level clue: the closest any of our defencemen has come to playing the winning, vintage style in the past 10 years is.........Josh Gorges for the first 41 games of this year).

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Old
02-15-2009, 06:02 AM
  #42
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Even last year a lot of posters here (including me) thought that we didnt have the team to play the system that Carbo wants. Its not new. This team doesnt have the personnel, the size on defense and the discipline to sit back and trap the opposition like Carbo wants.
In Carbo's defense, I wouldn't want to coach that team. Not talented enough to play up-tempo, too lazy to play a great defensive system, too soft to check.

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Old
02-15-2009, 06:09 AM
  #43
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Love how the TSN announcers are bashing him when he's down. The players are soft, lazy, half-assed, quitters that more than deserve a bag skate witnessed by the Montreal Press.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gee View Post
it's hard for a system to work when the players don't skate
Skate, try, work, show up....etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimota View Post
In Carbo's defense, I wouldn't want to coach that team. Not talented enough to play up-tempo, too lazy to play a great defensive system, too soft to check.
The problem, IMO, is the work ethic in the players. I love to see the free agents next season try to get any sort of leverage in contract negotiations with any team in the NHL.

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02-15-2009, 06:33 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Dolemite View Post
Love how the TSN announcers are bashing him when he's down. The players are soft, lazy, half-assed, quitters that more than deserve a bag skate witnessed by the Montreal Press.



Skate, try, work, show up....etc.



The problem, IMO, is the work ethic in the players. I love to see the free agents next season try to get any sort of leverage in contract negotiations with any team in the NHL.

I don't know about the other teams' players but the Habs have had the softiest team for quite a while. And no amount of GM changes over the years have improved on that. I don't know if it's because this is the "prestigious Montreal Canadiens" organisation but they never get those guys that are willing to get dirty.

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Old
02-15-2009, 07:19 AM
  #45
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but in the gazette habs blamed the altitude for being out of breath and unable to skate.

that was the exact same excuse opposing football teams used when playing the broncos in denver. but as soon as the broncos became a bad team then no visiting teams had problems anymore breathing and beating them there.

and avalanche even this year are just 16-14 at home so almost half their opponents are beating them. besides they were missing sakic, statsny, foote etc on friday as well.

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Old
02-15-2009, 08:00 AM
  #46
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He was criticizing the 1-2-2 but throughout the game he was also praising Carbo for trying everything in his power to motivate the team. He was glad that the lines kept getting shuffled, he was fine with benching certain players. So no I don't think McGuire was over critical of Carbo. Just the way the team was playing in the third period. It was the players that were being lazy and not trying hard. It was if they were afraid to lose and just tried to slow the game down. Once it was tied the players woke up and starting trying again.

Blame the lackluster play on the players, not the coach.

It seems fans and media alike try to find a negative, any negative, and over analyze it in order to blame someone other than the players for not working.


Last edited by MrNasty: 02-15-2009 at 08:06 AM.
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Old
02-15-2009, 08:29 AM
  #47
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BaseballCoach, FINALLY someone on this board who understands real hockey.

Bravo. Best reply of the week.

I will add this: I'm shocked nobody sees how the forwards leave the zone before the puck does. Blaming the D is easy, but what are they supposed to do if the forwards don't stick close for a pass reception?

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02-15-2009, 08:34 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Dolemite View Post

The problem, IMO, is the work ethic in the players. I love to see the free agents next season try to get any sort of leverage in contract negotiations with any team in the NHL.
Well, it did kind of work out for Ryder. Everybody here thought he was finished after his season last year and then, he's having a great season with the Bruins.

He has also had some harsh words for Carbo during the course of this season when interviewed.

I would actually like to see someone like Higgins or Andrei K. traded, just to see how they would perform with another team. I would also love to go back in time, have the Habs draft Jeff Carter, and see how many goals he would have this year.

Correct me if I'm wrong but in the last 10 years, we have never had a player in the top 10 scorers in the league, an achievement not many team can boast. I'm pretty sure we never had an experienced coach behind the bench during these same 10 years (Carbo, Julien, Vigneault, Tremblay). Coincidence....honestly, I don't know, but it seems our rookie coaches have always had a hard time developping scorers.

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Old
02-15-2009, 09:08 AM
  #49
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Kovy not giving his best probly because he's playing with Kosto..

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Old
02-15-2009, 09:46 AM
  #50
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Originally Posted by deandebean View Post
BaseballCoach, FINALLY someone on this board who understands real hockey.

Bravo. Best reply of the week.

I will add this: I'm shocked nobody sees how the forwards leave the zone before the puck does. Blaming the D is easy, but what are they supposed to do if the forwards don't stick close for a pass reception?
Thanks, man. Actually I have coached hockey too, though baseball is my forte. I am one of the few coaches in Quebec with the qualifications to coach Midget AAA. At the same time, having taken high level courses in coaching theory enables me to look at any game a bit differently.

I can tell the difference between a poor system and poor execution. I know with certainty that the "passive 1-2-2" is not Carbonneau's idea of good play because he REGULARLY complains when his players go into one.

Having said that, the coach is not off the hook for execution. Part of his job is to instill good systems, but another part is to ensure the best possible execution through both motivation and teaching/correction.

Our problem from a system point of view is in our OWN zone. Without realizing it, Josh Gorges gave us an unbelievable demonstration of it earlier this year. In the first 41 games of the season, this fairly ordinary player from a TALENT point of view built up an AMAZING plus/minus record by, in my opinion inadvertently, playing a similar style to those of Serge Savard and Rick Green. Perhaps because he is a lefty playing RD, Josh took a different approach to reacting to shoot-ins than ALL of our other defencemen.

If anyone has recordings of games from the first half of this year, my little challenge to you is to see what he was doing.

By the way, the reason why I don't think the failure of the others to do what Gorges did is a failure of execution is because I NEVER hear Carbonneau talk about what I see as the major fault in their play, whereas he is always talking about the problems that arise when they play passive 1-2-2 or "rope-a-dope".

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