HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Montreal Canadiens
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

TSN announcers on Carbonneau

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
02-15-2009, 08:50 AM
  #51
mcphee
Registered User
 
mcphee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 19,105
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
Hello, is anyone out there?

Does anyone listen to Carbo during the post-game interviews? He clearly is NOT a fan of the passive game, and he FREQUENTLY calls out his players for not skating more and not forechecking harder.

The question of playing 2-1-2 vs. 1-2-2 is a question of reading the play. If you have no chance at getting the puck on the forecheck, because you just changed lines, or because you dumped it in out of desperation rather than as an attacking play, almost every coach in the league will prefer the 1-2-2. Some prefer the 1-2-2 in almost all cases, but Carbonneau is not in this group.

The trap is indeed a 1-2-2 system. However, there is a big difference between an AGGRESSIVE 1-2-2 (such as the trap) and a passive 1-2-2 (basically the rope-a-dope). Carbonneau's system is to play an aggressive 2-1-2 forecheck when the circumstances allow, and to play an aggressive 1-2-2 trap when they don't.

The problem is execution, in particular skating as a five-man unit. When the team is not skating, the opportunities for a successful forecheck are low, and the SAME lack of skating makes for a passive 1-2-2. If the feet are not moving, it is almost impossible to trap the opponents and steal the puck. The puck ends up instead in the Habs' defensive zone.

Our checking system in the center ice area and the offensive zone is very much similar to what Scotty Bowman taught and which produced teams that scored 350 goals per year. Success is a matter of how well you skate and how badly you want to recover the puck.

At another time, I will break down the defensive zone approach. This, in my opinion, is where the Habs of 2009 are playing a much inferior system to the Habs of the 1970s, 1980s and early 1990s. Here's one little clue for anyone with some videotapes or DVD's or a PVR recording of the recent vintage games shown on ESPN Classic: look at the difference in how our DEFENCEMEN react to a shoot-in compared to how Savard, Robinson, Lapointe, Engblom, Chelios, Svoboda, Green, Ludwig, Desjardins, Schneider and the others reacted. (2nd level clue: the closest any of our defencemen has come to playing the winning, vintage style in the past 10 years is.........Josh Gorges for the first 41 games of this year).
preaching to the choir BC. You can adjust,modify until the ows come home, bit if players can't follow a gameplan, if a winger isn't where he should be on a breakout, if your ld moves to the middle messing up your spacing, you're screwed. Yes,McGuire was right in criticizing passivity, but it was in execution. I can't imagine a coach instructing his team to stand around like table hockey players.

mcphee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-15-2009, 09:18 AM
  #52
3TB3*
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 507
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Go Habs Go View Post
I don't need Pierre Maguire to tell me whats wrong with this team, we can see it ourselves. Regardless of what Pierre said, its TV, its a business, as soon as money is involved, you can't just trust what he says. There's always other motives, they need viewers, they want people to notice what they're saying.

The Montreal Canadiens is a business thats not ran by a team of monkeys. They are profitable and do well because there are great people running it.
the canadiens and the leafs for that matter are profitable and sell-out all the time ONLY because montreal and toronto hockey fans love hockey more than any fans anywhere else. and it doesnt matter how poorly the team is run by either because each team has no competitor - i.e. - they each have a monopoly in their area. ever notice how habs started getting worse as soon as nordiques moved away? and started on this no stanley cup in 16 years and counting then? and how leafs and nhl block any team moving into toronto's market? both these cities can support 2 teams, if new york city area has 3 teams, los angeles has 2 teams and even the state of florida has 2 teams. montreal or toronto by themselves have more hockey fans than those 3 areas combined.

only big acquisition gainey made here was getting kovalev almost 5 years ago. as long as seats are full gainey seems to do nothing. and despite this recent collapse habs still have a 7 point lead over the only 2 possible playoff teams NOT in the top 8 and that means gillette still will get at least a couple(2) playoff games here.

3TB3* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-15-2009, 09:24 AM
  #53
Bullsmith
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 4,141
vCash: 500
It was pretty shocking how ineffective the 1-2-2 was. The Avs were able to enter out zone at will. Heck we weren't able to touch them in any zone. System-wise, it was spectacularly awful.

Bullsmith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-15-2009, 09:24 AM
  #54
kovalost27
 
kovalost27's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Country: Canada
Posts: 745
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by gee View Post
it's hard for a system to work when the players don't skate
Excactly! Most of the players are speedy guys with soft hands. If they skate hard and make openings, they will win.

TSN is run by a bunch of morons.

kovalost27 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-15-2009, 09:59 AM
  #55
mcphee
Registered User
 
mcphee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 19,105
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by grant1r View Post
Excactly! Most of the players are speedy guys with soft hands. If they skate hard and make openings, they will win.

TSN is run by a bunch of morons.
I enjoy their broadcast more than I do HNIC. I like McGuire and Miller for the most part, I even enjoy Torterella though I was prepared not to, I never liked him with TB. I don't have a probelm with any of them really, football or hockey, well actually I refuse to listen to Rod Black do football. I just thought McGuire was a bit over the top in how he presented a few things on Friday. He was right in how porous MTl was, but I thought the way he presented certain things was questionable and stunk of a guy looking to make a point at someone's expense.

mcphee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-15-2009, 10:10 AM
  #56
Habsterix*
@Habsterix
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,475
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
Hello, is anyone out there?

Does anyone listen to Carbo during the post-game interviews? He clearly is NOT a fan of the passive game, and he FREQUENTLY calls out his players for not skating more and not forechecking harder.

The question of playing 2-1-2 vs. 1-2-2 is a question of reading the play. If you have no chance at getting the puck on the forecheck, because you just changed lines, or because you dumped it in out of desperation rather than as an attacking play, almost every coach in the league will prefer the 1-2-2. Some prefer the 1-2-2 in almost all cases, but Carbonneau is not in this group.

The trap is indeed a 1-2-2 system. However, there is a big difference between an AGGRESSIVE 1-2-2 (such as the trap) and a passive 1-2-2 (basically the rope-a-dope). Carbonneau's system is to play an aggressive 2-1-2 forecheck when the circumstances allow, and to play an aggressive 1-2-2 trap when they don't.

The problem is execution, in particular skating as a five-man unit. When the team is not skating, the opportunities for a successful forecheck are low, and the SAME lack of skating makes for a passive 1-2-2. If the feet are not moving, it is almost impossible to trap the opponents and steal the puck. The puck ends up instead in the Habs' defensive zone.

Our checking system in the center ice area and the offensive zone is very much similar to what Scotty Bowman taught and which produced teams that scored 350 goals per year. Success is a matter of how well you skate and how badly you want to recover the puck.

At another time, I will break down the defensive zone approach. This, in my opinion, is where the Habs of 2009 are playing a much inferior system to the Habs of the 1970s, 1980s and early 1990s. Here's one little clue for anyone with some videotapes or DVD's or a PVR recording of the recent vintage games shown on ESPN Classic: look at the difference in how our DEFENCEMEN react to a shoot-in compared to how Savard, Robinson, Lapointe, Engblom, Chelios, Svoboda, Green, Ludwig, Desjardins, Schneider and the others reacted. (2nd level clue: the closest any of our defencemen has come to playing the winning, vintage style in the past 10 years is.........Josh Gorges for the first 41 games of this year).
Amen BC, aaammen!

Unfortunately, it's a long post that the Carbo bashers won't even read.

Habsterix* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-15-2009, 10:15 AM
  #57
WeThreeKings
Registered User
 
WeThreeKings's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Halifax
Country: Canada
Posts: 35,093
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to WeThreeKings
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asterix View Post
Amen BC, aaammen!

Unfortunately, it's a long post that the Carbo bashers won't even read.
I read it. It's all fine and dandy but if he can't get the players to execute the gameplan and system he's implenting then what good is he?

WeThreeKings is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-15-2009, 12:50 PM
  #58
BBrowser
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 530
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by muzion View Post
It's 2009. Playing a soft 1-2-2 sitting on a 2 goal lead is a recipe for failure. We were lucky Halak played great still the Avs missed some golden chances. I'm glad Carbonneau was being taken to task by the TSN crew because it's certainly not the French media that will do it.
Untrue. I listen in on CKAC in the car, sometimes watch L'Antichambre, la zone , read the sports section in the morning, you name it.. They love to rant about anything and everything, and "should the Habs fire the coach" is as much a part of their daily soap opera than all the rest of the nonsense!

BBrowser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-15-2009, 12:52 PM
  #59
BBrowser
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 530
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
I read it. It's all fine and dandy but if he can't get the players to execute the gameplan and system he's implenting then what good is he?
Right... Let's try it without a coach and see if they do any better...

BBrowser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-15-2009, 02:29 PM
  #60
Monctonscout
Monctonscout
 
Monctonscout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 30,643
vCash: 500
As much as Pierre can be annoying, he is right in this case. Having 4 guys behind the red line is a stupid way to protect a lead. If you want to trap, at least make it hard to get to the red line and dump the puck in. We have more skill than Co,lorado does but we let them dictate the pace for 40 minutes using this system.

It's also hard to blame the players for not "moving their feet" when their coach wamnts them parked at their own blueline for 40 minutes of a game.

Monctonscout is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-15-2009, 02:37 PM
  #61
Jigger77
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,016
vCash: 500
I rarely if ever criticize Carbo but I wasn't a big fan of seeing Kostopoulos on our first line.

Sure reward effort and all but man. What are Koivu and Kovalev, who are both playmakers supposed to do with TK?

Stick a guy with a shot and at least a bit of offensive vision and imagination on there with those two. Like MaxPac or AKost or something. TK is a grinder and should be playing with grinders crashing, banging and keeping things simple.

I like the idea of having 3 or even 4 lines that can score, but when guys like Tanguay, Lang and to an extent Latendresse are out of your lineup there is nothing wrong with having a strong overloading 1st line that gets the minutes and the support guys backing you up and providing energy on the other lines.

Just my two cents.

Jigger77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-15-2009, 02:46 PM
  #62
Habsterix*
@Habsterix
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,475
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
I read it. It's all fine and dandy but if he can't get the players to execute the gameplan and system he's implenting then what good is he?
If a handful of players refuse to play as a team, does that make the coach a bad coach? And don't come back with the lame "it's the coach's job" excuse as I'll come back with the question if you've ever made unanimity elsewhere!

Habsterix* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-15-2009, 04:53 PM
  #63
BBrowser
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 530
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jigger77 View Post
I rarely if ever criticize Carbo but I wasn't a big fan of seeing Kostopoulos on our first line.

Sure reward effort and all but man. What are Koivu and Kovalev, who are both playmakers supposed to do with TK?

Stick a guy with a shot and at least a bit of offensive vision and imagination on there with those two. Like MaxPac or AKost or something. TK is a grinder and should be playing with grinders crashing, banging and keeping things simple.

I like the idea of having 3 or even 4 lines that can score, but when guys like Tanguay, Lang and to an extent Latendresse are out of your lineup there is nothing wrong with having a strong overloading 1st line that gets the minutes and the support guys backing you up and providing energy on the other lines.

Just my two cents.
If Saku and Kovalev need a 3rd guy for the line to have minimal success, the habs are in more trouble than I thought. Kosto was by far the best on the line against Colorado by the way.

BBrowser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-15-2009, 05:24 PM
  #64
FlyingKostitsyn
Registered User
 
FlyingKostitsyn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Quebec
Country: Australia
Posts: 8,042
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BBrowser View Post
If Saku and Kovalev need a 3rd guy for the line to have minimal success, the habs are in more trouble than I thought. Kosto was by far the best on the line against Colorado by the way.
Is it too much to ask for a first line winger on a first line?

FlyingKostitsyn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-15-2009, 05:31 PM
  #65
Jigger77
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,016
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BBrowser View Post
If Saku and Kovalev need a 3rd guy for the line to have minimal success, the habs are in more trouble than I thought. Kosto was by far the best on the line against Colorado by the way.

I knew someone would somehow take this as an attack on Kosto.

Kosto is always the best, always trying the hardest yes I know. It's just that, hmm.., how can I say this...

He cannot score a goal to save his life.


The first line is supposed to score goals.

Jigger77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-15-2009, 05:44 PM
  #66
WeThreeKings
Registered User
 
WeThreeKings's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Halifax
Country: Canada
Posts: 35,093
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to WeThreeKings
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asterix View Post
If a handful of players refuse to play as a team, does that make the coach a bad coach? And don't come back with the lame "it's the coach's job" excuse as I'll come back with the question if you've ever made unanimity elsewhere!
Yes, it does make him a bad coach. If you're running a business and someone is promoted to manager, while he may be smart, smart enough to get a promotion, if he can't get the people he's working with to cooperate and perform the assigned tasks, do you think he's a good manager? No, he isn't. He's not managing his people, he's not getting results and he's not going to be a manager much longer.

Unfortunately we've got a country club for a coaching staff and it doesn't look like being bad at his job is enough to get Carbonneau fired.

WeThreeKings is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:20 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.