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The Baby Leafs and the Mayor of St. John's

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Old
08-16-2004, 10:23 PM
  #26
igor*
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jadeddog
but thats the thing, i *wont* come to town and i *wont* spend my money..... like i said before, between me and my 3 friends we prolly spent about 2000 in edmonton in two nights..... and thats money that would not be spent their if the oilers arent in edmonton ...... and we arent the only guys doing this, i would guess that there are 1000s of people who do likewise
You're a key fan for the Oilers. You represent new money for the City. Money that otherwise might not end up in Edmonton. It offsets some of the City's interest.

The Oilers have done a good job of going to the outside communities to drum up business as well. And they have (until this past season) gone out of their way to schedule back-to-back home games on the weekends to help draw out-of-towners. They know which side the bread is buttered on.

Still ... I doesn't seem to me that there is a huge chunk of income coming from outside of the Edmonton region.

The economics of a pro sports team seem remarkably similar to those of a big casino (esp. if the dealers were paid millions and spent most of it outside of the City )

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08-17-2004, 06:57 AM
  #27
Yanner39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by igor
I know that the site is old, but the links to reports aren't working for me.
Oh, the link works for me. Weird. I'm kinda technically challenged. Could it be the browser you are using?

I use Mozilla Firefox...Seems to work.

Try this:

http://www.saveoursens.netfirms.com/...icimpact.shtml

http://www.saveoursens.netfirms.com/government.shtml

Hopefully these will work. Here's another...

http://www.saveoursens.netfirms.com/charities.shtml


Last edited by Yanner39: 08-17-2004 at 07:03 AM.
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Old
08-17-2004, 07:03 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by igor
Van Nostrin:

You might be into this --> http://brookings.nap.edu/books/0815761112/html/R10.htmlSports, Jobs, and Taxes: The Economic Impact of Sports Teams and Stadiums (1997)
Roger G. Noll - Andrew Zimbalist

It's the whole book online, which is kinda cool (and free )

The preface:

In our forthcoming Brookings book, Sports, Jobs, and Taxes, we and 15 collaborators examine the local economic development argument from all angles: case studies of the effect of specific facilities, as well as comparisons among cities and even neighborhoods that have and have not sunk hundreds of millions of dollars into sports development. In every case, the conclusions are the same. A new sports facility has an extremely small (perhaps even negative) effect on overall economic activity and employment. No recent facility appears to have earned anything approaching a reasonable return on investment. No recent facility has been self-financing in terms of its impact on net tax revenues. Regardless of whether the unit of analysis is a local neighborhood, a city, or an entire metropolitan area, the economic benefits of sports facilities are de minimus.

Thanks igor. Always looking for stuff like this.

These are facilities though. To use one of your quotes, I think it is as obvious as the blueness of the sky that the facility would not bring in as much as people think. I mean, would building a new ballpark in Montreal would have made a difference on the fate of the Expos? My guess is no. Alot of these sports facilities, if under-used are cash cows.

I'm looking at it from a more global perspective.

Oh yeah and if the mayor of St-John's was given a chance to get another AHL team, I think he'd jump on the chance.

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Old
08-17-2004, 08:38 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. van Nostrin
.... Oh yeah and if the mayor of St-John's was given a chance to get another AHL team, I think he'd jump on the chance.
I dunno, by his math there was a net loss of $1.5M per annum from the province of NF because of the AHL team. Granted there is some benefit to local charity, and its entertainment for a lot of St. John's citizens as well. And the additional cost to run the stadium without a major tennant is only $75k per year. I think that a Q team would make more sense for them.

Stadiums are the new currency of pro sports now. Would the Expos be leaving if MTL had ponied up the cash for a new downtown stadium? ... probably not. And MLB surely won't move the team to a new location until someone builds a stadium for them ... (and gifts the new owner a free lease and parking, luxury box and concession considerations).

In the case of Seattle ... which recently built two stadiums in order to make sure they didn't lose their baseball and football teams, there is a pretty positive impact on the state in terms of new money (largely because of the number of Canadians that go down to watch games, I suspect). I think it worked out to about $3M-ish per year in New Money to the government for each team, hardly enough to justify the new stadiums from an economic POV. And by my memory that did not take into account that much of the money that moves from its citizens --- to the players --- then outside the state. Heck, Ichiro probably moves a bunch of cash out of WSH each year on his own.

EDIT: From the Oilers POV ... aside from the out-of-towner audience that they've targetted well, they have also managed to sign quite a few players that reside in Alberta in the off-season (probably coincidence ... still). Surely that helps put them in a favourable light when they go cap in hand to either level of gov't. Does anyone have the details on the lease agreement with Northlands BTW?


Last edited by igor*: 08-17-2004 at 09:01 AM.
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08-17-2004, 09:55 AM
  #30
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Most of my thoughts have been covered by Dr.Van Nostrin and Jadeddog so there isn't much too add. I admit that I haven't read the books that were quoted earlier in the thread so I can't counter anything specific but on Igor's recommendation of Googling the topic, most of what I found supporting his position includes the scenario of government kicking into the construction of an arena/facility. In this situation where costs are now well into the hundreds of millions of dollars it makes sense that the return isn't there.

That said, where the facility already exists, I can't wrap my head around the idea that a professional sports team has a negative effect on the economy (yes I am specifically relating this rational to the Oilers).

Quote:
Originally Posted by igor
Does anyone have the details on the lease agreement with Northlands BTW?
In doing a search, I found this;

Although EIG became the official owner of the Edmonton Oilers on May 5, 1998, the terms of the lease agreement between the group and Northlands Park had yet to be finalized as this magazine went to press. The city won't release money until Northlands and the investors decide on how the remaining deficit is to be handled. Various deadlines have come and gone, and former Northlands general manager Al Skoreyko has told the press that legal hangovers from the Pocklington era are why it's taking longer than first thought. Ultimately, the agreement will see the investors' group continue to pocket all Oilers-event revenues from ticket sales, from advertising and concessions sold inside, arena parking charges, about $2.2 million annually from a city-approved ticket surcharge plus the $2.4-million rent break each year until 2004.

Its actually a pretty interesting article (although it is dated now) and it actually addresses the the economic impact;

Economic Development Edmonton backs him up: by its calculations, having an NHL team injects up to $74.7 million into the city region each year and as many as 1,200 local jobs depend on the team's being around.

I actually thought it would be more but none the less....mind you this was also from '98.

It's an interesting article, here's the link.

http://www.camagazine.com/index.cfm/...96/la_id/1.htm

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Old
08-17-2004, 09:15 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by copperandblue
...
In doing a search, I found this;

Although EIG became the official owner of the Edmonton Oilers on May 5, 1998, the terms of the lease agreement between the group and Northlands Park had yet to be finalized as this magazine went to press. The city won't release money until Northlands and the investors decide on how the remaining deficit is to be handled. Various deadlines have come and gone, and former Northlands general manager Al Skoreyko has told the press that legal hangovers from the Pocklington era are why it's taking longer than first thought. Ultimately, the agreement will see the investors' group continue to pocket all Oilers-event revenues from ticket sales, from advertising and concessions sold inside, arena parking charges, about $2.2 million annually from a city-approved ticket surcharge plus the $2.4-million rent break each year until 2004.

Its actually a pretty interesting article (although it is dated now) and it actually addresses the the economic impact;

Economic Development Edmonton backs him up: by its calculations, having an NHL team injects up to $74.7 million into the city region each year and as many as 1,200 local jobs depend on the team's being around.

I actually thought it would be more but none the less....mind you this was also from '98.

It's an interesting article, here's the link.

http://www.camagazine.com/index.cfm/...96/la_id/1.htm
Well, firstly, since I pasted a preface and nobody is likely to bother reading links from Canmore Mike or myself (Baseball and Billions is the best of the bunch IMO btw) ... a couple snippets:


Coates and Humphries:
we find evidence that some professional sports franchises reduce the level of per capita
personal income in metropolitan areas and have no effect on the growth in per capita income,
casting doubt on the ability of a new sports franchise or facility to spur economic growth. We
also find evidence that results obtained from estimating reduced form relationships, a common
practice in the literature, are not robust to alternative reduced form specifications.


THE CITY OF NEW YORK
INDEPENDENT BUDGET OFFICE
econometric studies find little discernible difference between metropolitan areas with major league baseball teams and areas without teams. Such research suggests that when a team relocates out of a region residents substitute spending on other forms of local entertainment for spending at the ball park.


Sports economist Robert Baade at Lake Forest College studied 48 metropolitan statistical areas (MSAs) over a 30-year period, and found "of the 32 MSAs where there was a change in the number of sports teams, 30 MSAs showed no significant relationship between the presence of the teams and real, trend-adjusted, per-capita personal income growth. In the remaining two cases, the presence of sports teams was significantly positive once (in Indianapolis) and significantly negative once (in Baltimore)."


There is some hilarious stuff out there though. Buffalo rationalizes gov't subsidization of the Sabres by taking the net revenue of the Sabres and multiplying by 1.5 ... with no explanation. :lol :lol <doh!>

By their math: If I went on a prolonged bout of garden vandalism in northern Alberta ... chainsawing down 10 million dollars worth of garden flowers, shrubs and trees ... I would be pumping millions into the economy, specifically in the garden centre industry, but with spinoffs in garden tool and landscaping industries. As well out-of-towners who came to the larger garden centres in Edmonton, and spent money on food, fuel, entertainment and accomodation while here ... a virtual bonanza for the city! The federal gov't would rake in hundreds of thousands in GST alone! And the provincial and federal government both would garner extra tax from the additional gardening industry employees (bonus points for creating employment) and tax from the OT worked by existing employees. Everyone's a winner, baby!

Great link btw C&B ... and I will get back to it, because there are some really interesting things there ... can't be right, the EIG didn't get THAT sweet of a deal, surely But right now I have much more important reading to do "Buzz Buzz Bumble Kitty" doesn't read itself to a 2-year-old. :lol


Last edited by igor*: 08-17-2004 at 09:19 PM.
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