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Old
02-22-2009, 05:42 PM
  #51
Em Ancien
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Originally Posted by Kafka View Post
By the way, I bring this one back to make sure everyones understands what a team with an identity can be. It's hard to understand when you are from an American culture like most posters here. I suggest everyone to look at the roster of the Barcelona FC. It is not filled with Spanish guys, but with Catalans...! That team is "more than a club"... sounds like Les Canadiens no?


Read my above post...it proves how using that example makes NO SENSE whatsoever.

Not to mention the region actually produces good players. Quebec does not produce good talent consistently, and it has been proven for a good number of years. Until they straighten the development programs here, going all-Québec (in the draft, because there are some great Québec players in the NHL) will only get you to the bottom of the league for many, many years.

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02-22-2009, 06:04 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Kafka View Post
. I suggest everyone to look at the roster of the Barcelona FC. It is not filled with Spanish guys, but with Catalans...! That team is "more than a club"... sounds like Les Canadiens no?
I didn't realize that Brazil (Dani Alves), Argentina (Lionel Messi), France (Thierry Henry; Eric Abidal), Belarus (Alexander Hleb),Cameroon (Samuel Eto'o), and Ivory Coast (Yaya Touré) were a part of Catalonia?

Barcelona do have Catalan players (Xavi, Valdes, Puyol) who are among their better starters, even stars, but they do not limit themselves to players of Catalan heritage, otherwise they wouldn't have the success they have.

Additionally, comparing a soccer team's ability to recruit home-grown talent and any teams in the North American leagues is not a good comparison; the soccer leagues recruit and bring players up through their own youth clubs, while North American teams have to compete with others in the draft.

If you want to look at a team made up (almost) exclusively of local talent, look at Athletic Bilbao, who only sign players from Basque provinces.

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02-22-2009, 06:29 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by MTLHabsAK46 View Post
Well, considering there is no draft and teams can buy players, it makes it EXTREMELY easy for them to get these players. Not to mention Barcelona and Madrid have HUGE budgets for player transfers.
.
you bring a good point . But Habs have also the opportunity to buy free agent . The problem is that there are afraid to be considered as the " savior " .Why Briere signe with the Flyers ? because he had french friends there and wanted to play with Gagné. Isn't ironic ?

I understand that it 's very hard to get dominant french players ; they are rare . You can't draft a Quebecer when a better talent is still available . But at one point , i doubt that there isn't enough quebecers able to play on the 3-4 th line or last dmen pairing .

I think that for the first time this season , it would be more easy to sign a french free agent . Why ? because he would have less pressure because of Tanguay , and because there are already Latendresse and Lapierre that are showing good things in a lesser role . Lecavalier just showed that he would be willing now , to play for the Habs .

last point ; when you have a Turgeon or a Ribeiro , you don't trade them for a Corson or a Niiniima

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02-22-2009, 06:38 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by MTLHabsAK46 View Post
Well, considering there is no draft and teams can buy players, it makes it EXTREMELY easy for them to get these players. Not to mention Barcelona and Madrid have HUGE budgets for player transfers.

The situation is not comparable by any means. If we could just buy players, it'd be pretty easy to get Lecavalier, St-Louis, Pominville, etc. from lower budget teams. Not to mention, we could sign players into our system (assuming they want to be Montreal Canadiens) instead of having to fight other teams to draft them.

I get what you're trying to say, but it's so much different, you can't make a point out of it.



Read my above post. We have 2 times more scouts in the Q than in any other league and Timmins sees more Q games than any other league's. They try really hard. They sign the top QJMHL undrafted free agents (Desharnais, Desjardins, Beauregard) to give them a chance.



This makes no sense whatsoever. The CHL is searched from top to bottom for talent, unlike the European leagues (which is why you have quite a few late rounders who become good/great players). Not to mention we'd have to sign them to our farm teams or cut ties (lose the exclusive rights) after 2 years, whereas US kids have more years before we have to give them a contract (i.e. until they finish college) or Europe, where we keep rights for a long period of time also (don't know how much until we have to give them a contract or lose their rights).
It is very different, though the fact that they have huge budgets isn't why they have so much local talent... if anything, for both Barcelona and Real Madrid this season, the bulk of their "Star" players are foreigners bought thanks to deep pockets (eto'o, messi, henry, alves, huntelaar, robben ect)...
but for both teams, many of the staple role players, the guys not on all-star teams and blockbuster contracts but nonetheless vital to any championship worthy team, are guys that have been scouted and developed by the club from a young age

the comparison I was trying to make was that it is not so far fetched a notion to suggest that athletes raised idolizing a certain team, especially one with strong local cultural ties, can and do perform with more passion/commitment/intensity when given the chance to play for their "home team"...

we see it very clearly that many european players, even canadian players, step up those qualities when representing their national teams... in europe, and I'm arguing that here in montreal as well, club teams often stir up those same emotions. A passion that runs much deeper than simple team rivalries since the given club represents the city or in some cases the entire region/province.

In a way, the habs have an "advantage" in this way, since there isn't really another franchise that has such an emotional connection to it's fan base. It's an advantage insofar as it has the "potential" to create an environment where players feel a greater emotional attachment to the team and thus a greater responsibility to perform at their absolute best... it's not really measurable, but it's definitely there. Other successful franchises try to "create" this kind of legacy, finding ways to "indoctrinate" new arrivals with a sense of belonging to something bigger, some sort of tradition, and athletes occasionally do take less money to be a part of something they believe in.
the habs have the legacy and the tradition going for them already, the cultural significance (which is only really felt by those exposed to it while growing up) is an added bonus that, imo, should be something management tries to best take advantage of/continue.

We shouldn't want the habs to operate like any other team, or become any other team...

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02-22-2009, 06:40 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by 100th View Post
He's not the one that made a fool of himself

Neither was I!!!!

It doesn't matter what nationality the players are on the Habs....we need skill and talent and people who will play hockey. If we can't find that talent in our french canadian players then why should we sign more of them and remain a mediocre team????

If signing more Americans, Russians, Finns or whatever other nationality means we will have skilled, talented players on our team.....then whats the difference?

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02-22-2009, 06:46 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
We shouldn't want the habs to operate like any other team, or become any other team...
I don't...They do try, as I've said, to get as much local talent as they can.

But let's face it...We don't have the incentives to pry away top Q-born talent from teams (e.g. Luongo, Lecavalier, St-Louis), unless we're basically willing to completely cripple ourselves, both now and for the future, in the process. Through the draft would be so hard, because the QJMHL doesn't produce elite talent right now and the talent it does produce is not always the best available at the position.

If being a French-Canadian organisation that is a strong component of the Québec culture is one thing the Montréal Canadiens are, the other thing is they have been extremely successful and one of the winningest franchise in North-American sports.

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02-22-2009, 06:58 PM
  #57
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I didn't realize that Brazil (Dani Alves), Argentina (Lionel Messi), France (Thierry Henry; Eric Abidal), Belarus (Alexander Hleb),Cameroon (Samuel Eto'o), and Ivory Coast (Yaya Touré) were a part of Catalonia?

Barcelona do have Catalan players (Xavi, Valdes, Puyol) who are among their better starters, even stars, but they do not limit themselves to players of Catalan heritage, otherwise they wouldn't have the success they have.

Additionally, comparing a soccer team's ability to recruit home-grown talent and any teams in the North American leagues is not a good comparison; the soccer leagues recruit and bring players up through their own youth clubs, while North American teams have to compete with others in the draft.

If you want to look at a team made up (almost) exclusively of local talent, look at Athletic Bilbao, who only sign players from Basque provinces.
Who said all players had to come from one place? I am sure you are more intelligent then your post suggest, and that you read and understood that NO ONE said the team had to be 100% made of Quebecois.

Therefore, the example of the Barcelona FC is very good... by the way, you forgot to tell us about the over 10 other Catalans players on the club. In fact, the club is made of over 50% Catalans... like the '92-'93 club of Les Canadiens.

As I said, the point here is to build a winning team. And Les Canadiens have something to build on others (even the Leafs) don't have: a winning tradition. Why not using it?

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02-22-2009, 06:59 PM
  #58
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Threads like these certainly bring out the bigots.

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02-22-2009, 07:02 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Kafka View Post
Who said all players had to come from one place? I am sure you are more intelligent then your post suggest, and that you read and understood that NO ONE said the team had to be 100% made of Quebecois.

Therefore, the example of the Barcelona FC is very good... by the way, you forgot to tell us about the over 10 other Catalans players on the club. In fact, the club is made of over 50% Catalans... like the '92-'93 club of Les Canadiens.

As I said, the point here is to build a winning team. And Les Canadiens have something to build on others (even the Leafs) don't have: a winning tradition. Why not using it?
No it's not...they can BUY players. And they don't have to draft. AND they can pay players ridiculous contracts.

No comparison possible.

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02-22-2009, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by MTLHabsAK46 View Post
I don't...They do try, as I've said, to get as much local talent as they can.

But let's face it...We don't have the incentives to pry away top Q-born talent from teams (e.g. Luongo, Lecavalier, St-Louis), unless we're basically willing to completely cripple ourselves, both now and for the future, in the process. Through the draft would be so hard, because the QJMHL doesn't produce elite talent right now and the talent it does produce is not always the best available at the position.

If being a French-Canadian organisation that is a strong component of the Québec culture is one thing the Montréal Canadiens are, the other thing is they have been extremely successful and one of the winningest franchise in North-American sports.
now isn't it at least a little telling that the bulk of that success came on the shoulders of names like Richard, Beliveau, Bouchard, Savard, Joliat, Plante, Cournoyer, Lafleur, Roy...

of courser, the Robinson's, Moore's, Blake's, Mahovolich's, Dryden's etc were all instrumental as well, as was the different factors that allowed us to accumulate such a collection of riches of francophone stars... but in that was also some savy and schrewd managing by the powers that be, who saw the importance, read: necessity, of having french canadian stars represent the Les Canadiens de montreal...

if Doug Wilson can find a way to land a Joe Thornton AND make his team better, is it so crazy to want Gainey to land a Viny Lecavalier without making the franchise worse?

no one, i think, is advocating gutting the franchise chasing after the one big french canadian star, but on the other hand, I look at our roster, and our prospect list, and I can't help but feel that the team would be better served finding a way to translate some of our abundant mid-level assets (be they prospects or young nhlers) into 1 or 2 bonafide stars (be they french canadian, russian, or tanzanian).

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02-22-2009, 07:17 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Kafka View Post
Who said all players had to come from one place? I am sure you are more intelligent then your post suggest, and that you read and understood that NO ONE said the team had to be 100% made of Quebecois.

Therefore, the example of the Barcelona FC is very good... by the way, you forgot to tell us about the over 10 other Catalans players on the club. In fact, the club is made of over 50% Catalans... like the '92-'93 club of Les Canadiens.

As I said, the point here is to build a winning team. And Les Canadiens have something to build on others (even the Leafs) don't have: a winning tradition. Why not using it?
Having more regional talents would be a great tactic... if there were enough good regional talent to begin with. Which is not the case. So I don't understand what's your point.

'92-'03 was 15 years ago, the league changed a lot since then. The proportion of quebec players in the league has dropped a lot. That's just a fact. I don't understand why people don't get this.

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02-22-2009, 07:18 PM
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If you can get the French Canadian star without making a bad business and value deal, of course you do it. It is a marketing bonanza. A lot of teams would love to get a home town star.

However you don't do things that hamper the good of the team. All things being equal, you take the local. I have no problem with the franchise doing that. The problem is we have seen this franchise seem to try and make a quota and even over pay to get some Quebecers here.

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Originally Posted by 100th View Post
last point ; when you have a Turgeon or a Ribeiro , you don't trade them for a Corson or a Niiniima
but those were just bad deals, it has nothing to do with were they are from.


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02-22-2009, 07:22 PM
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but those were just bad deals, it has nothing to do with were they are from.
That, and given the general reception of Ribeiro here (in Montreal), I don't think too many people would have cared had he been traded in a better deal. Trading either of them were bad ideas, but only because of who they were traded for.

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02-22-2009, 07:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Puckhead58 View Post
Neither was I!!!!

It doesn't matter what nationality the players are on the Habs....we need skill and talent and people who will play hockey. If we can't find that talent in our french canadian players then why should we sign more of them and remain a mediocre team????

If signing more Americans, Russians, Finns or whatever other nationality means we will have skilled, talented players on our team.....then whats the difference?
Nobody in this thread asked for more Quebecers even if it would mean a mediocre team . Nobody is saying it is black or white . Open your mind and try to look farther than your own point of view .

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Threads like these certainly bring out the bigots.
post like this certainly brings out the bigot.


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02-22-2009, 07:28 PM
  #65
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Nobody in this thread asked for more Quebecers even if it would mean a mediocre team . Nobody is saying it is black or white . Open your mind and try to look farther than your own point of view .
If what you ask is the most quebecers possible without affecting team performance, then look no further than this year edition of the Montreal Canadiens.

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02-22-2009, 07:31 PM
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Who said all players had to come from one place? I am sure you are more intelligent then your post suggest, and that you read and understood that NO ONE said the team had to be 100% made of Quebecois.

Therefore, the example of the Barcelona FC is very good... by the way, you forgot to tell us about the over 10 other Catalans players on the club. In fact, the club is made of over 50% Catalans... like the '92-'93 club of Les Canadiens.

As I said, the point here is to build a winning team. And Les Canadiens have something to build on others (even the Leafs) don't have: a winning tradition. Why not using it?
As, MTLHabsAK46, it's not a good comparison because the structures of the teams are very different. Barcelona doesn't have to compete with other teams to acquire youth talent in the way of a draft, they simply have to recruit them to their youth teams. What Catalans they don't recruit they can acquire down the road by purchasing them in a transfer (using their huge advantage in finances, something the Habs can't do), and there's no salary cap.

If the NHL was structured like it was pre-expansion, with teams relying on recruiting players to their farm teams and having the ability to buy/sell players for cash, the Canadiens would have more Quebecois.

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02-22-2009, 07:33 PM
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That, and given the general reception of Ribeiro here (in Montreal), I don't think too many people would have cared had he been traded in a better deal. Trading either of them were bad ideas, but only because of who they were traded for.
No , it's a bad idea because when you have the chance to get a good local player , you keep him .

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Originally Posted by Goldthorpe View Post
If what you ask is the most quebecers possible without affecting team performance, then look no further than this year edition of the Montreal Canadiens.
I agree . They aren't the best players of the Habs but are working hard .


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02-22-2009, 08:34 PM
  #68
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now isn't it at least a little telling that the bulk of that success came on the shoulders of names like Richard, Beliveau, Bouchard, Savard, Joliat, Plante, Cournoyer, Lafleur, Roy...

of courser, the Robinson's, Moore's, Blake's, Mahovolich's, Dryden's etc were all instrumental as well, as was the different factors that allowed us to accumulate such a collection of riches of francophone stars... but in that was also some savy and schrewd managing by the powers that be, who saw the importance, read: necessity, of having french canadian stars represent the Les Canadiens de montreal...

if Doug Wilson can find a way to land a Joe Thornton AND make his team better, is it so crazy to want Gainey to land a Viny Lecavalier without making the franchise worse?
no one, i think, is advocating gutting the franchise chasing after the one big french canadian star, but on the other hand, I look at our roster, and our prospect list, and I can't help but feel that the team would be better served finding a way to translate some of our abundant mid-level assets (be they prospects or young nhlers) into 1 or 2 bonafide stars (be they french canadian, russian, or tanzanian).
What's being called one of the most lopsided trades in the history of the NHL does not make a precedent. Not every GM is a major ******.

As for turning our mid-level assets into star, please tell me you are joking. If it was possible, don't you think we'd already have turned some of our depth into a big point producer? They just don't come at retail prices...and they have to be available. And if they're available, there's normally strings attached (e.g. UFA to be, serious injury, locker room cancer, brutal contract).

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02-23-2009, 12:30 AM
  #69
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No , it's a bad idea because when you have the chance to get a good local player , you keep him .
no its bad cause what you received was bad however i guess by your logic if it was Ribeiro for Morrow it would have been a bad trade.

Its simple, it doesn't matter whether its a local, a foreigner or a Canadian from somewhere else in the country, if you have a good player you don't trade him unless you get equal or hopefully better value.

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02-23-2009, 06:42 AM
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Hello,

When I dream about where I would have loved to score my first NHL goal, it is always the same place - the mythic Forum. I never played in the NHL but I am an avid hockey fan. Despite my loyalty to my NY Islanders of which my family was a season ticket holder for my entire youth (1975-1989) I have always held a religious reverence for the Canadiens.

With that in mind - I ask you as a community - is there not enough (French) Canadian influence on the team at this point to carry on the classy and winning traditions that define the franchise? There is one player born in Quebec in the teams top nine scorers.

In the wake of both the teams on ice struggles and the latest scandal (involving 3 non-Canadian players) should GM Gainey focus on acquiring more French-Canadian players in the off-season?

With Respect,
LT
i wanna slap everyone in the face who says that comment.. and you know what, i find it funny that its only quebecer fans who say that we need more french players on the team. »You hardly ever or never hear an anglo saying.. oh we need more canadians, or more italians, or more portugese or more americans on the team or whatever race.(please dont comment that Cherry says it all the time.. im talking about fans). Anyways im an anglo living in quebec and its super annoying that evreything has to be a language issue. For christ sakes, its a major league sport. Language should not be an issue. IMO if your biggest concern is the language the players speak, then in my eyes your not a real fan! Just a patriot without a cause....


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02-23-2009, 08:16 AM
  #71
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i wanna slap everyone in the face who says that comment.. and you know what, i find it funny that its only quebecer fans who say that we need more french players on the team. »You hardly ever or never hear an anglo saying.. oh we need more canadians, or more italians, or more portugese or more americans on the team or whatever race.(please dont comment that Cherry says it all the time.. im talking about fans). Anyways im an anglo living in quebec and its super annoying that evreything has to be a language issue. For christ sakes, its a major league sport. Language should not be an issue. IMO if your biggest concern is the language the players speak, then in my eyes your not a real fan! Just a patriot without a cause....
I disagree...I'm not pro-Quebecer (as I think it gives us a handicap team managing-wise), but this organisation is not just any other pro sports organisation.

I'm not up to make it a business direction (to systematically go after Quebecers), but what the Habs are doing (more scouting in the Q, signing top undrafted free agents from the Q) is quite all right. It gives back to the community.

And should a Québec-born star be available, the Habs should make a strong pitch. However, this isn't really important, as I think any time a star player should be available, the Habs should make a strong pitch (depending on the circumstances, of course).

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02-23-2009, 08:31 AM
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drafting players just because of their names put us back 15 years during the houle era.
And what's the relation between the 90's bad drafting and francophones again? Do you mean the Chouinard pick? Maybe so....could have still gone french though and get the good one. But the first rounders that cost us the most weren't french. It's a bad hockey evaluation that took place even before the 90's, has nothing to do with names.

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02-23-2009, 08:33 AM
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I disagree...I'm not pro-Quebecer (as I think it gives us a handicap team managing-wise), but this organisation is not just any other pro sports organisation.

I'm not up to make it a business direction (to systematically go after Quebecers), but what the Habs are doing (more scouting in the Q, signing top undrafted free agents from the Q) is quite all right. It gives back to the community.

And should a Québec-born star be available, the Habs should make a strong pitch. However, this isn't really important, as I think any time a star player should be available, the Habs should make a strong pitch (depending on the circumstances, of course).
your not wrong in what your saying, but if you look carefully there just isn`t as much quebec talent right now as there used to be. And im sure teams draft the best players that would better help and suite their team. I believe drafting talent over players to give back to their community is a much better appraoch IMO. If that means the better talent is coming from elsewhere. well then so be it.

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02-23-2009, 08:34 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by MTLHabsAK46 View Post
We have 2 scouts permanently scouting the Q AND Timmins sees more Q games than any other league's.

If there's nothing there, there's nothing.

As for UFA's, it has to work both ways. Brière didn't want to come here for a better offer.
Which then prooves that either is was to shut the mouth of some journalists or they really felt it was needed, but the hiring of those 2 scouts had to be a proof that there were something missing.

Having said that, there are not permanent. If so, it changed lately but they were hired as part-time.

My personaly take is that the draft is OUR way to build a team. UFA's won't come here in group and the trades, well with the tons of NTC, I guess it's like being UFA after all, the players still chooses his place.

So Habs should be all over the country and be able to outnumbered and outwit and the scouts on any other team. But they could also be more present in places that are not that scouted heavily and in a day where scouts don't pay too much attention to the Q for some reasons that we all know now, maybe we should not do like the others and keep having faith in this league. (Note that I'm talking about the Q and not necessarily being french canadian).

I think that the Habs have done a good job lately with the fact that they've invited 19 french out of the 50ish guys present at their last camp. If you can't or don't want to draft them, well you could probably invite a few and they do that. And it paid off in some occasions. There are still occasions that I'm wondering what was beside Timmins and Co thinking but then I guess it's more about the analysis of a player than where he's native from.


Last edited by Whitesnake: 02-23-2009 at 08:39 AM.
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02-23-2009, 09:00 AM
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Joe Cole
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With respect, the water is much deeper than you think.

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