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Old
02-22-2009, 11:43 AM
  #101
SLAPSHOT723
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Originally Posted by dubey View Post
Who did the Islanders draft again last year? Can anyone honestly remember?

Scott Gordon or something?
You're not funny.

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Old
02-22-2009, 11:52 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Isles_Guy View Post
grabo man come on.toskala was hailed by leaf fans as a great acquisition when you got him. and the leafs defense has sucked for the last 3 years as has the Islanders. youre way to smart To think Danis and Macdonald are better than Toskala

Montreal thought their Powerplay would would suffer without Souray but with Sreit last year it was even better than with Souray. ask any Habs fan their Powerplay has crashed without Streit. Right now at this moment Streit is better. only a fool would say otherwise. You are correct that Kabs has done it far longer. but thats youre argument not Toskala is to blame or the Isles defense is better because minus Kaberle for you guys and minus Streit for us you guys have more talent on defense.

Streit for this year at least is better than Kaberle anyone with a shred of impartiality can see that
The conversation isn't about who's been better this year. Its obvious that Streit has played better. BUT, who's a better player. For people with short memories, its Streit. For those who think history matters, its Kaberle. Lets put it in perspective:

1) Streit would have to perform at his current pace for ~ 8 years (at least 6, taking into account Kaberle's rookie and sophomore seasons) in order to match Kaberle's career production.

2) In the next 5 seasons, who will be the better player? Based on this season, Streit. Based on the last 9 seasons (or 8, if you want to call last season a tie), one would have to believe that Kaberle will be the better player.

3) Streit has been better than Kaberle for about 1 season. Prior to this, Kaberle has been better than Streit for 10 seasons. The only way that someone should think that Streit is a better player is if they think that Kaberle will remain at his current level and not get back to where he has been for the past 8 or 9 seasons. In other words, in the past 50 games Kaberle has shown his true colors... the remaining 690 games he's played must have been a fluke.

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Old
02-22-2009, 11:56 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by defensewins631 View Post
Fact is, the Isles overall team is AT BEST equal to that of the Leafs, and still Streit has outproduced Kaberle offensively and defensively. But I guess since stats don't favor your home guy, that arguement "doesn't hold any water," eh?
Hey, wait a minute, I never said anything about stats not mattering. My point is that you can't argue that Streit is hamstrung by lousy goaltending when your goalies have better stats than Toskala.

I've said this in a couple of threads now, but I like Streit. I was a fan of his when he played for Montreal, and I still am. Still, if I was a GM, I wouldn't say that one player is better than another based on one and a half good years. Without trying to offend anybody, any argument that relies on one years stats to prove value is flawed.

So far as Isles_Guy's post, I do agree that I think Toskala is better than his numbers suggest. Still, it was a valid point to make. There's no doubt that Streit has been good this year, surprisingly good, but I don't think this vaults him up into Kaberle territory. If he plays at this level next year I'll agree, but right now he's not there in my books.

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Old
02-22-2009, 11:58 AM
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slapshot723 View Post
Streit right now is a -1, Kaberle is a -12.

I would think Kaberle would be a -25 if he was on the Isles right now.
Kaberle probably would be boosting his stats

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Old
02-22-2009, 03:29 PM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WildWolfdog View Post
My exact words, when posted exactly as I said them and in context, were this -

"Realistically I wouldn't do Okposo and Tor 2nd for Kaberle if I was the Islander's GM but I don't think value-wise it's too far off. Plus the Islanders don't lose their own picks and are basically trading a highly touted prospect for Kaberle."

And since I think Kaberle has more value than Streit, no, Streit isn't worth Schenn.

Then I'm going to call you a hypocrite. If Kaberle is worth Okposo + then Streit is easily worth Schenn+.

I actually don't think Kaberle is worth as much as Streit right now on the trade market, and I'm virtually certain Schenn is not at Okposo's level in terms of trade value. So, the deal which you say is so unfair is a lot closer to being reasonable than what you proposed.

From your perspective, the Leaf vets are worth a ton, and the Leaf rookies are all worth a ton. But, the players on other teams are not worth much.

I rest my case.

The crime is homerism and you are guilty.


Last edited by Darth Milbury: 02-22-2009 at 03:34 PM.
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Old
02-22-2009, 03:53 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post
Then I'm going to call you a hypocrite. If Kaberle is worth Okposo + then Streit is easily worth Schenn+.

I actually don't think Kaberle is worth as much as Streit right now on the trade market, and I'm virtually certain Schenn is not at Okposo's level in terms of trade value. So, the deal which you say is so unfair is a lot closer to being reasonable than what you proposed.

From your perspective, the Leaf vets are worth a ton, and the Leaf rookies are all worth a ton. But, the players on other teams are not worth much.

I rest my case.

The crime is homerism and you are guilty.
He obviously thinks that Kaberle > Streit, and that Okposo ~= Schenn (or that Schenn > Okposo). In your opinion, this makes him guilty of homerism.

You said, Streit > Kaberle and Okposo >> Schenn, and yet, you aren't guilty of homerism?

Streit & Okposo vs Kaberle & Schenn is definitely not clear-cut enough for anyone to be certain about anything. Honestly, I wouldn't trade Schenn for Okposo OR Kaberle for Streit (even if the Leafs were in a different position). But I'm a Leafs fan so I really like Schenn and Kaberle.

I'm starting to think that you have me on ignore. Haven't responded to one of my posts in this thread.

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Old
02-22-2009, 03:53 PM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by defensewins631 View Post
Fact is, the Isles overall team is AT BEST equal to that of the Leafs, and still Streit has outproduced Kaberle offensively and defensively. But I guess since stats don't favor your home guy, that arguement "doesn't hold any water," eh?
Just to be clear, because the numbers being cited in this thread are not up to date:


Streit 11 31 42 even

Kaberle 4 26 30 -12

Streit has played 5 more games (54 vs. 49).

On a PPG basis, I believe that the only dman ahead of Streit are Green, Markov, and Rafalski.

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Old
02-22-2009, 07:03 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by defensewins631 View Post
That's probably because in reality, Streit is better than Kaberle. Considering he is playing for the Isles this year(read the Isles, worse team in league, had BACKUPS playing in goal nearly every game besides one game when DiPietro played), and still has Kaberle beat in +/-, goals, and assists, I'd figure that maybe he is better than Kaberle. No?
so plus minus is how we determine how good a player is now. You may want to read all the posts before jumping in on this as you seem to have missed the point of my post. Oh and I guess Brind'Amour must be garbage because he's a -29 this year. But he's only won the Selke twice so yeah he is must be bad defensively as well.

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Old
02-22-2009, 07:15 PM
  #109
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how did NYI get Toronto's second pick?

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Old
02-22-2009, 07:17 PM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuckerrules19 View Post
how did NYI get Toronto's second pick?
The Isles traded the 2008 #5 overall to Toronto for the #7 overall, Toronto's 2nd in 08 and either Toronto's 3rd in 08 or 2nd in 09. Snow decided to go with the 2nd this summer as opposed to the 3rd last summer.

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Old
02-22-2009, 07:17 PM
  #111
Transplanted Caper
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuckerrules19 View Post
how did NYI get Toronto's second pick?
From the deal that saw the Leafs move up and draft Schenn at last year's draft.

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Old
02-22-2009, 07:26 PM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by embracedbias View Post
The conversation isn't about who's been better this year. Its obvious that Streit has played better. BUT, who's a better player. For people with short memories, its Streit. For those who think history matters, its Kaberle. Lets put it in perspective:

1) Streit would have to perform at his current pace for ~ 8 years (at least 6, taking into account Kaberle's rookie and sophomore seasons) in order to match Kaberle's career production.

2) In the next 5 seasons, who will be the better player? Based on this season, Streit. Based on the last 9 seasons (or 8, if you want to call last season a tie), one would have to believe that Kaberle will be the better player.

3) Streit has been better than Kaberle for about 1 season. Prior to this, Kaberle has been better than Streit for 10 seasons. The only way that someone should think that Streit is a better player is if they think that Kaberle will remain at his current level and not get back to where he has been for the past 8 or 9 seasons. In other words, in the past 50 games Kaberle has shown his true colors... the remaining 690 games he's played must have been a fluke.
For the most part I agree with You Embraced. I just think that its possible that Streit is one of those rare late bloomers. To be perfecly truthful when we got him I thought he was a product of the habs powerplay and not all that much of a defender but boy was I wrong. watching him now hes much better than I gave him credit for.You may be right about Kaberle refocusing and getting his game back together but I kind of doubt Burke will trade him and on a rebuilding leaf team he might not be motivated enough.

I've said all along I dont see him being dealt Toronto is Hockey Heaven and they love Tomas I really doubt Burke can get enough in trading him for the fans to accept it as the right thing

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