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Old
02-21-2009, 12:19 AM
  #126
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Originally Posted by HuLk View Post
People are so confident that Hedman has a good shot at become the next Lidstrom or Pronger. I think he is far from achieving that, at least for now. He certainly has substantial potential but he has a long way to go before he has established what Luke Schenn has at 19!
If I was in NHL team management I wouldn't trade Schenn for the #2 pick this draft. I'd stick with Schenn who my organization has put faith into, and I see his basement as a Robyn Reghr. He has been so good for a 19 year old. IMO he will be remembered as one of the great defensive defenseman for a long time. People underrate this type of player.
That IMO is a vast over exageration, Schenn has been good, but your making him out to be some kind of god on defense. The only player from last years draft that has warranted that type of hype and admiration is Drew Doughty of the LA Kings.

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02-21-2009, 12:35 AM
  #127
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Originally Posted by MSP4LYFE View Post
That IMO is a vast over exageration, Schenn has been good, but your making him out to be some kind of god on defense. The only player from last years draft that has warranted that type of hype and admiration is Drew Doughty of the LA Kings.
Schenn completely dominated the World Juniors. Yes, domination. Hedman showing was far inferior to Schenn's. Unless Hedman comes into the NHL next year and wins the Calder or comes close behind JT I will continue to think Schenn will be the more effective player.

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02-21-2009, 12:41 AM
  #128
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Originally Posted by HuLk View Post
Schenn completely dominated the World Juniors. Yes, domination. Hedman showing was far inferior to Schenn's. Unless Hedman comes into the NHL next year and wins the Calder or comes close behind JT I will continue to think Schenn will be the more effective player.
Hedman was also injured heading into the WJC, and last year (age 16/17) was arguably one of the best d-man in the entire WJC, including Schenn.

I am a little confused by your second statement, Schenn isnt going to win the Calder, nor is he even in the running, so why would Hedman failing to finish a close second reaffirm your belief that Schenn is the better player?

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02-21-2009, 12:48 AM
  #129
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Originally Posted by MSP4LYFE View Post
Hedman was also injured heading into the WJC, and last year (age 16/17) was arguably one of the best d-man in the entire WJC, including Schenn.

I am a little confused by your second statement, Schenn isnt going to win the Calder, nor is he even in the running, so why would Hedman failing to finish a close second reaffirm your belief that Schenn is the better player?
Because the Calder is biased against Schenn's playing style and will treat Hedman's style quite well especially with his hype. JT will have a better shot though imo.
I don't think Schenn deserves the calder this year I just think Schenn is more acomplished and comfortable with his role than Hedman is. I have a feeling Hedman is going to come into the NHL trying to do way too much and fall slightly short of expectations.

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02-21-2009, 01:18 AM
  #130
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Originally Posted by HuLk View Post
Because the Calder is biased against Schenn's playing style and will treat Hedman's style quite well especially with his hype. JT will have a better shot though imo.
I don't think Schenn deserves the calder this year I just think Schenn is more acomplished and comfortable with his role than Hedman is. I have a feeling Hedman is going to come into the NHL trying to do way too much and fall slightly short of expectations.
That is true.

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02-21-2009, 02:20 AM
  #131
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schenn was better last year in WJC than hedman... schenn was impressive there and the russia super series... that is where he BECAME the human ERASER da da da!!!

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02-21-2009, 12:30 PM
  #132
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Can this get more juvenile? Two very good young players and a group of kids ragging on them.

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02-21-2009, 06:08 PM
  #133
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hedman + schenn would be a nice future pairing.... i'd rather grab JT...lol... but there is forsure a reason hedman is #2.

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02-21-2009, 06:21 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by sangreale View Post
Can this get more juvenile? Two very good young players and a group of kids ragging on them.
No one is ragging on anybody, we are merely debating who the better prospect is. The only thing that is juvenile are your comments that contribute little to the discusion at hand.

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02-23-2009, 12:55 AM
  #135
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Originally Posted by MSP4LYFE View Post
There was nothing ignorant about that statement at all, just stating facts, your comments however are a different story entirely. Hedman is a potential generational defenceman and arguably the best prospect available in this years draft, he is a mammoth defenceman with a freakish wingspan and stride. He has played 20+ minutes of defence a night against men since he was 16 in the SEL and has proven to be more then capable of holding his own physically and defensively, in fact he has excelled in both areas. Luke Schenn is a great player, and BY FAR my favourite leaf, but he is a defensive d-man and not a franchise player or a great two way d-man, and certainly not the next Scott Stevens, who btw was one of the best offensive defenceman in the NHL during his prime years. The true ignorance lies in your failure to acknowledge Hedmans great all around game, which is vastly superior to Schenn's at the same age, and no that's not my opinion, it is a fact.

And how, may I ask do you know that Hedman wont stick up for his teammates or effectively lead a team? Because everything I have heard and seen of him suggests otherwise. I dont mean to sound rude, but your comments reek (not wreak) of homerism or in this case, Schennerism. Dont get me wrong, Schenn is a good, potentially great d-man, but to compare him to the likes of Hedman and Tavares, is ridiculous to say the very least.

On a side note:

My remark about the Calder trophy was not meant to imply that Schenn will not become successful or that Mason (the likely winner) is guaranteed to be a star in this league, but rather to point out that Schenn has not been as great as you claim, otherwise he would, at the very least, be in the running for the Calder, no? And imo the only players that should even warrant consideration over JT and Hedman, are those who have proven they can be stars in this league, and by no stretch of the imagination can one suggest Schenn has had that type of impact in his rookie season.

P.S. Reading over my post, it does seem a bit harsh so I just wanted to clarify that it is not personal, and I have absolutely nothing against you personally. Just in disagreement with regards to this particulaur topic.
No offense taken, nor any personal feelings hurt, LOL. This is a discussion board so I do enjoy a thoroughly deep debate. I value differing opinions and enjoy putting my point across as much as you enjoy putting yours. In the end we're all trying to make our points to improve the Leafs, just with different opinions. For example, I like Brayden Schenn, not because he's Luke's brother, but because I think he could be a better Doug Gilmour; other's like MSP because they think he is fast and skilled like Marian Hossa.

You said:

No offense to Schenn but he is not nearly good enough to even warrant being discussed in the same sentence as a player like Hedman and Tavares, unproven or not.

It does come across as ignorant. Schenn plays defense, so you can't compare Tavares to him, but saying that Schenn can't be mentioned in the same breath as Tavares is ludicrous when they both played for Team Canada in the World Juniors and Super Series -- both in which Schenn dominated defensively. And also to make the same comparison with Hedman when he has not even played a single game in the NHL, the best league in the world where real men come out to play. I'm not saying Hedman won't be awesome, but he's unproven at the NHL level, and this is the most important factor, that it's not surprising to see many top prospects over the years flunk once they enter the NHL. You just don't simply give up a great young defenseman like Schenn for an NHL-unproven prospect, even if he is a Tavares or a Hedman. It's not like Schenn was a 30th overall pick and we have a chance to rob a GM blind. Schenn is a tremendous defensive defenseman picked at the 5th spot. There are not too many of these types picked this high unless they are exceptional. Ideally, I hope we get a chance to draft either one this year. At least you admit to sounding harsh, which I totally agree, LOL.

About the Calder, I do agree with a poster who had mentioned that the Calder is biased against Schenn's style. Also playing with a bad team like the Leafs does not help. If Schenn was playing for the Sharks paired with Rob Blake and playing along the top line with Thornton, earning plus 1 or 2 scores every game and hitting the way he does, I bet he'll get serious considerations for the Calder. Alas, that's not the case, but we're very fortunate to have him.

You described me as a homer or a Schenner; I could easily refute with similar adjectives on your part, and I could go further by saying you carry the "grass-is-always-greener-on-the-other-side" attitude. I don't blame you since we haven't won the cup for so many decades. For me, I admit that Schenn is not our saviour, we need many more pieces than him alone, but he gives us a bit of hope that we're heading in the right direction.

It is great to chat with you.


Last edited by Superstar: 02-23-2009 at 01:06 AM.
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02-23-2009, 01:00 AM
  #136
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Originally Posted by sangreale View Post
Can this get more juvenile? Two very good young players and a group of kids ragging on them.
It's called a discussion.

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02-23-2009, 01:05 AM
  #137
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Originally Posted by facey View Post
hedman + schenn would be a nice future pairing.... i'd rather grab JT...lol... but there is forsure a reason hedman is #2.
Agreed, Tavares should solidify our #1 centre spot for years.

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02-23-2009, 01:05 AM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Superstar View Post
No offense taken, nor any personal feelings hurt, LOL. This is a discussion board so I do enjoy a thoroughly deep debate. I value differing opinions and enjoy putting my point across as much as you enjoy putting yours. In the end we're all trying to make our points to improve the Leafs, just with different opinions. For example, I like Brayden Schenn, not because he's Luke's brother, but because I think he could be a better Doug Gilmour; other's like MSP because they think he is fast and skilled like Marian Hossa.

You said:

No offense to Schenn but he is not nearly good enough to even warrant being discussed in the same sentence as a player like Hedman and Tavares, unproven or not.

It does come across as ignorant. Schenn plays defense, so you can't compare Tavares to him, but saying that Schenn can't be mentioned in the same breath as Tavares is ludicrous when they both played for Team Canada in the World Juniors and Super Series -- one in which Schenn dominated defensively. And also to make the same comparison with Hedman when he has not even played a single game in the NHL, the best league in the world where real men come out to play. I'm not saying Hedman won't be awesome, but he's unproven at the NHL level, and this is the most important factor, that it's not surprising to see many top prospects over the years flunk once they enter the NHL. You just don't simply give up a great young defenseman like Schenn for an NHL-unproven prospect, even if he is a Tavares or a Hedman. It's not like Schenn was a 30th overall pick and we have a chance to rob a GM blind. Schenn is a tremendous defensive defenseman picked at the 5th spot. There are not too many of these types picked this high unless they are exceptional. Ideally, I hope we get a chance to draft either one this year. At least you admit to sounding harsh, which I totally agree, LOL.

About the Calder, I do agree with a poster who had mentioned that the Calder is biased against Schenn's style. Also playing with a bad team like the Leafs does not help. If Schenn was playing for the Sharks paired with Rob Blake and playing along the top line with Thornton, earning plus 1 or 2 scores every game and hitting the way he does, I bet he'll get serious considerations for the Calder. Alas, that's not the case, but we're very fortunate to have him.

You described me as a homer or a Schenner; I could easily refute with similar adjectives on your part, and I could go further by saying you carry the "grass-is-always-greener-on-the-other-side" attitude. I don't blame you since we haven't won the cup for so many decades. For me, I admit that Schenn is not our saviour, we need many more pieces than him alone, but he gives us a bit of hope that we're heading in the right direction.

It is great to chat with you.
Fair enough, and I completely understand what you're saying, I just feel that Hedman and Tavares' potential impact in the NHL is so great that is worth taking a risk on, i.e. dealing Schenn outright for the #1 or #2 picks. It's not that I dont love Schenn's game, but lets be honest for a moment, he is a defensive d-man (albeit a great one), and realistically what is his max potential? I personally dont feel it is as good, or even close for that matter to Hedman, but again thats just my opinon.

P.S. Touche on the last paragraph, I cant even argue against it, my name is MSP4LYFE, what could I possibly say lol.

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02-23-2009, 01:11 AM
  #139
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Originally Posted by MSP4LYFE View Post
As EazyB97 astutely mentioned earlier, (paraphrasing) some posters overemphasize the importance of skill and ppg numbers (myself included), while others overemphasize the importance of intangibles such as, heart, leadership and character. I think we all need to tone down a little bit and take both into equal consideratio when evaluating a player.
I agree here, but toning down is a different matter.

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02-23-2009, 01:21 AM
  #140
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Originally Posted by TML4LIFE View Post
That's because defense, is not nearly as sexy as goal scoring, dangling and the like. IMO players and prospects are overrated based on the offensive potential they could possiblly reach. Many people seem to overlook or not take into account the intangibles a hockey player brings. Thankfully we have several of these experts right here on this very board to confirm the ceiling of a player and a players market worth. Quite fortunate really to have these experts readilly available.
Ah "sexy", there goes that term again. You make it sound like some players wear pantyhose instead of socks.

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02-23-2009, 09:24 AM
  #141
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Originally Posted by Superstar View Post
Stevens became a tough defensive defenseman later in his career, so I think his comparison to Schenn's playing style is on par. I thought Stevens' hit on Lindros was exceptionally dominating, and Schenn brings this skillset to the table in addition to his solid defensive play. I think a player like Schenn could change the tone and turn the momentum of a game very quickly.
I figured this would come up. One of my big issues with Stevens and the hype for him, is I don't think he alone could bring his team to another level. I see it in Hedman to do so, but Stevens could only motivate others to be better and play well himself. It makes a big difference on a good team, but he wasn't able to win games on his own. He was effective because his team was so strong. Not saying he was a bad player, because he certainly wasn't, I just think he needed to be on a very strong team to have a large impact on games.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HuLk View Post
Schenn completely dominated the World Juniors. Yes, domination. Hedman showing was far inferior to Schenn's. Unless Hedman comes into the NHL next year and wins the Calder or comes close behind JT I will continue to think Schenn will be the more effective player.
I think it's a bit of a stretch to say Schenn "dominated" the WJC when he was there.

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