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Not (French) Canadien Enough?!?

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Old
02-23-2009, 10:28 AM
  #76
Em Ancien
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
So Habs should be all over the country and be able to outnumbered and outwit and the scouts on any other team. But they could also be more present in places that are not that scouted heavily and in a day where scouts don't pay too much attention to the Q for some reasons that we all know now, maybe we should not do like the others and keep having faith in this league. (Note that I'm talking about the Q and not necessarily being french canadian).
Look, I'm all for reaching for some Q guys when it actually makes sense (e.g. They really like this guy who they figure is an early 2nd rounder, but we have a late first-rounder), but we can't go blind either.

There just isn't enough talent coming out of the Q in the draft for us to be able to make a strong case for a pick most of the time. How many guys are rated as first-rounders out of the Q (or that are Québec-born)? 2-3-4? We'd need to be close to the where we have them rated to get good value. If there were as much good players coming out of the Q as there was from the OHL, it'd be pretty easy to get some of those guys.

I really liked some players last year (Deschamps and Cormier), but even close to their ranking, there were some players who I thought would give us more (I had Grachev rated as my top guy in the early-mid 20s).

Let's face it...If we can get a top offensive guy or a better D-man from elsewhere, there's no point at picking a future role-player from the Q (if that's the evaluation).

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02-23-2009, 10:46 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by LT56Strong View Post
Hello,

When I dream about where I would have loved to score my first NHL goal, it is always the same place - the mythic Forum. I never played in the NHL but I am an avid hockey fan. Despite my loyalty to my NY Islanders of which my family was a season ticket holder for my entire youth (1975-1989) I have always held a religious reverence for the Canadiens.

With that in mind - I ask you as a community - is there not enough (French) Canadian influence on the team at this point to carry on the classy and winning traditions that define the franchise? There is one player born in Quebec in the teams top nine scorers.

In the wake of both the teams on ice struggles and the latest scandal (involving 3 non-Canadian players) should GM Gainey focus on acquiring more French-Canadian players in the off-season?

With Respect,
LT
And this isn't REAL racism??????????

give me a break!

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02-23-2009, 10:47 AM
  #78
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Look, I'm all for reaching for some Q guys when it actually makes sense (e.g. They really like this guy who they figure is an early 2nd rounder, but we have a late first-rounder), but we can't go blind either.
I really don't believe why people keep bringing the same argument. Are people in their right mind actually want a player that is way less talented just for the sake that he's french or from the Q? Don't worry, I had Grachev on top of my list as well, like I had Anisimov as well, like I had Berglund as my 1st pick in 2006 instead of Giroux, like didn't want Veilleux even if he was big and a centerman, like a guy like Cornet was a ND for me etc.....

So anybody who is blind shouldn't be talking hockey. But then when it comes to an hockey analysis, the needs that we could address through the draft, while much different type of players, there is a case for people who wanted us to draft a Danick Paquette instead of a Danny Kristo. Paquette has some deficiencies for sure, but I would never take out the fact that a kid REALLY want to play here. I don't really buy into the fact that kids won't like to be drafted by a team 'cause your goal is exactly to be drafted. So whoever is drafted by the Habs, will play for them. But whoever DREAMS and already see himself in a Habs uniform, I really don't see how we can just forget about that. You can take Subban as an example. Sure, whoever would have drafted him, Subban would thrive a lot and be the kind of character that he is. But anybody remembers the enthusiasm just because it was the Habs? And you don't believe it can be that extra boost in somebody's career?

Well Paquette was that kinda guy. Now he has in his mind, from his own admission, that he's going to show the Habs org. that they made a mistake. We'll see if that's as strong as thriving 'cause you're being picked by your favorite team. And again, I'm obviously not talking about going for Paquette as a 1st rounder just because the little kid likes Montreal. Not at all. But our 2nd rounder would not have been too far fetched. Having said that, I like Kristo so I'm not dissapointed about the pick. Just talking about having guys on board that will make every sacrifice they can to play for the team of their dreams.

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02-23-2009, 10:50 AM
  #79
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So Ovechkin if from Washington? The Sedins from Vancouver? Funny I could have sworn the habs got their buts handed to them by Ovechkin, Backstrom, Semin, The Sedin twins and Malkin last week... None of them playing for their "home" crowd...

I'm a frenchie but not blind enough to notice we're the only fans that wonder such stupid things despite the facts.

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02-23-2009, 10:54 AM
  #80
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So Ovechkin if from Washington? The Sedins from Vancouver? Funny I could have sworn the habs got their buts handed to them by Ovechkin, Backstrom, Semin, The Sedin twins and Malkin last week... None of them playing for their "home" crowd...

I'm a frenchie but not blind enough to notice we're the only fans that wonder such stupid things despite the facts.
And no one is advocating not having players from all over the world either. Way to ignore most post in the thread including the one about european football and local players.

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02-23-2009, 10:57 AM
  #81
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So Ovechkin if from Washington? The Sedins from Vancouver? Funny I could have sworn the habs got their buts handed to them by Ovechkin, Backstrom, Semin, The Sedin twins and Malkin last week... None of them playing for their "home" crowd...

I'm a frenchie but not blind enough to notice we're the only fans that wonder such stupid things despite the facts.
Well they are stupid things if you actually believe that people talking about it are really preferring a Steve Bégin to an Alex Ovechkin. But since it's not about that AT ALL, it can't be that stupid.

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02-23-2009, 11:05 AM
  #82
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I won't say more french canadian players but more Canada born players overall, less from Europe or U.S .

When we see Canada always winning the WJC... it must be because they have the best players, no ?

MTL should scout more on WHL, OHL, LHJMQ. Also in the NCAA the players stay there for like 4 years...

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02-23-2009, 11:24 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by BBrowser View Post
So Ovechkin if from Washington? The Sedins from Vancouver? Funny I could have sworn the habs got their buts handed to them by Ovechkin, Backstrom, Semin, The Sedin twins and Malkin last week... None of them playing for their "home" crowd...

I'm a frenchie but not blind enough to notice we're the only fans that wonder such stupid things despite the facts.
exactly. the yankees and other teams had a long tradition of only white players, maybe racist fans there would think the same way if the press in those cities would push it like they do here.

its 2009 and 29 other teams ALSO draft in the draft and they are not racist nor stupid enough to exclude players who speak french as their first language.

but here - oh you also need a french-speaking coach or gm? why? suppose ther best man for the job is a deaf mute or only speaks russian or whatever? his job should only be how to communicate with his players - but that is not what the racist part of the media here believes and stresses constantly.

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02-23-2009, 11:29 AM
  #84
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By the way, I don't know if it was mentioned, but it's not about getting Quebecois players only, but guys who care about the team they will be playing for. And it seems management is looking for those players too. According to what I remember reading, Higgins and Komisarek were probably picked over other guys because they said in their draft interview they cheered as kids for Les Canadiens. That makes them more likely to stay with the club eventually as free agents... and more willing to pay the price once in the third round of the playoffs.

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02-23-2009, 11:31 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Kafka View Post
By the way, I don't know if it was mentioned, but it's not about getting Quebecois players only, but guys who care about the team they will be playing for. And it seems management is looking for those players too. According to what I remember reading, Higgins and Komisarek were probably picked over other guys because they said in their draft interview they cheered as kids for Les Canadiens. That makes them more likely to stay with the club eventually as free agents... and more willing to pay the price once in the third round of the playoffs.
In the same regard I'm sure management appreciated to see the Subban family and the love they have for the Habs.

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02-23-2009, 12:13 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by 3TB3 View Post
exactly. the yankees and other teams had a long tradition of only white players, maybe racist fans there would think the same way if the press in those cities would push it like they do here.

its 2009 and 29 other teams ALSO draft in the draft and they are not racist nor stupid enough to exclude players who speak french as their first language.

but here - oh you also need a french-speaking coach or gm? why? suppose ther best man for the job is a deaf mute or only speaks russian or whatever? his job should only be how to communicate with his players - but that is not what the racist part of the media here believes and stresses constantly.
Like it or not, Guy gives more interview than the PM of Quebec and has almost more exposure than anybody in the medias world. One part of being a coach in Montreal is to communicate their decisions to the press and fans, because fans wants to know what's going on and why. They pay to see the team, buy their marchandise and give RDS a ton of money by watching them every night. While being able to speak french is not mandatory, I think it's certainly one of the criteria being evaluated when choosing a coach. Add to this that a lot of good coach are able to speaks french, then it becomes a lot more difficult for the management to justify hiring someone who doesn't know the language. It's like any business in Quebec, you can choose between two employee who would do the job asked, one speak french and english, the other speak english only, the bilingual one will be the one chosen for obvious reason.

As for the players, I think a fair reprensentation of players who speaks french is mandatory, but not at the expense of the team. I'm sure we can keep 5 players or so who speaks the language and can interact with the fans, especially the young fans who ultimatetly will play hockey, grow the size of Quebec players and help the development of home-grown talent for here and elsewhere. I do understand that Quebec face difficult time when it comes to hockey players development but i'm confident thing will get better in 5-10 years. Quebec Nordiques leaving combined to Montreal Canadiens mediocrity has turned a lot of young people away from the sport. But now, hockey is becoming more popular than ever and it will show in the next few years.

Some posters ask why it's only in Montreal this is being discussed. It's pretty simple. In the other 29 other markets of the league, the coach speaks the language of the city and of the majority of the fans. For english folks, it's almost a given that people speaks english. For us, it's always and will always be more difficult, we have to "fight for it", it is not a given. You can call me a racist/bigot or whatever for saying that a certain proportion of the players (not talking about a quota here) should be able to speak french and that the coach should be able to speak french but i'm pretty sure Boivin, Gillette and Gainey thinks the same. It's part of the Montreal Canadiens heritage and culture.

Sure, bottom line is winning and nothing else but winning and keeping some local roots are not mutually exclusive.

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02-23-2009, 01:37 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
I really don't believe why people keep bringing the same argument. Are people in their right mind actually want a player that is way less talented just for the sake that he's french or from the Q? Don't worry, I had Grachev on top of my list as well, like I had Anisimov as well, like I had Berglund as my 1st pick in 2006 instead of Giroux, like didn't want Veilleux even if he was big and a centerman, like a guy like Cornet was a ND for me etc.....

So anybody who is blind shouldn't be talking hockey. But then when it comes to an hockey analysis, the needs that we could address through the draft, while much different type of players, there is a case for people who wanted us to draft a Danick Paquette instead of a Danny Kristo. Paquette has some deficiencies for sure, but I would never take out the fact that a kid REALLY want to play here. I don't really buy into the fact that kids won't like to be drafted by a team 'cause your goal is exactly to be drafted. So whoever is drafted by the Habs, will play for them. But whoever DREAMS and already see himself in a Habs uniform, I really don't see how we can just forget about that. You can take Subban as an example. Sure, whoever would have drafted him, Subban would thrive a lot and be the kind of character that he is. But anybody remembers the enthusiasm just because it was the Habs? And you don't believe it can be that extra boost in somebody's career?

Well Paquette was that kinda guy. Now he has in his mind, from his own admission, that he's going to show the Habs org. that they made a mistake. We'll see if that's as strong as thriving 'cause you're being picked by your favorite team. And again, I'm obviously not talking about going for Paquette as a 1st rounder just because the little kid likes Montreal. Not at all. But our 2nd rounder would not have been too far fetched. Having said that, I like Kristo so I'm not dissapointed about the pick. Just talking about having guys on board that will make every sacrifice they can to play for the team of their dreams.
I agree to some extent.

But, Paquette, while I liked him as a 3rd-4th rounder, was not somebody I would've picked with a late second rounder...especially with the talent available. I understand what you're saying, but Montreal needs to get some steady offensive firepower from their farm.

Paquette, my evaluation was a career potential of a bottom 6 player that brings a physical edge (similar to Jared Boll), with a MAXIMUM upside of a 2nd-3rd line tweener. Now, that is some pretty good value for a late 2nd rounder should we have a first rounder (like Lapierre in 03, when we had 2 picks before)...BUT, we didn't have a 1st rounder and needed to get (in my mind) a player with great upside, but a big bust chance since we didn't have any top-end talent coming in.

Kristo was way higher on my list than Paquette (I thought Kristo would be an early to mid 2nd rounder, very offensive top 6 winger), AND Grachev (who was my 1st choice for our 1st rounder should no other player fall into our laps)...

The idea would be then to trade up to get Paquette if he falls in the early-mid 3rd round, which the Habs didn't do. But I won't hold it against them, since I wouldn't have done it either, considering we had already lost our 1st rounder in a pick swap (for a 5th rounder).

I get what you're saying and I agree...but the Paquette pick doesn't make much sense to me. To ME. No disrespect.

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02-23-2009, 02:05 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Erngueva View Post
Like it or not, Guy gives more interview than the PM of Quebec and has almost more exposure than anybody in the medias world. One part of being a coach in Montreal is to communicate their decisions to the press and fans, because fans wants to know what's going on and why. They pay to see the team, buy their marchandise and give RDS a ton of money by watching them every night. While being able to speak french is not mandatory, I think it's certainly one of the criteria being evaluated when choosing a coach. Add to this that a lot of good coach are able to speaks french, then it becomes a lot more difficult for the management to justify hiring someone who doesn't know the language. It's like any business in Quebec, you can choose between two employee who would do the job asked, one speak french and english, the other speak english only, the bilingual one will be the one chosen for obvious reason.

As for the players, I think a fair reprensentation of players who speaks french is mandatory, but not at the expense of the team. I'm sure we can keep 5 players or so who speaks the language and can interact with the fans, especially the young fans who ultimatetly will play hockey, grow the size of Quebec players and help the development of home-grown talent for here and elsewhere. I do understand that Quebec face difficult time when it comes to hockey players development but i'm confident thing will get better in 5-10 years. Quebec Nordiques leaving combined to Montreal Canadiens mediocrity has turned a lot of young people away from the sport. But now, hockey is becoming more popular than ever and it will show in the next few years.

Some posters ask why it's only in Montreal this is being discussed. It's pretty simple. In the other 29 other markets of the league, the coach speaks the language of the city and of the majority of the fans. For english folks, it's almost a given that people speaks english. For us, it's always and will always be more difficult, we have to "fight for it", it is not a given. You can call me a racist/bigot or whatever for saying that a certain proportion of the players (not talking about a quota here) should be able to speak french and that the coach should be able to speak french but i'm pretty sure Boivin, Gillette and Gainey thinks the same. It's part of the Montreal Canadiens heritage and culture.

Sure, bottom line is winning and nothing else but winning and keeping some local roots are not mutually exclusive.
Even though I don't agree the players should be filtered by language, I agree 100% management -- and for sure the head coach -- need to be able to speak french in Montreal.

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02-23-2009, 02:10 PM
  #89
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Even though I don't agree the players should be filtered by language, I agree 100% management -- and for sure the head coach -- need to be able to speak french in Montreal.
Scotty Bowman and Sam Pollock were the best thing the Habs ever had at HC and GM.

While I agree it's nice to have a GM and HC that speak french, losing out on the best candidates to get rookie coaches and less competent front office people isn't the right way to get success in today's NHL.

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02-23-2009, 02:16 PM
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I get what you're saying and I agree...but the Paquette pick doesn't make much sense to me. To ME. No disrespect.
None taken. A I get what you're saying as well. But personnally, while I was not cheerleading for us to take him, I would have liked it as well. A guy who knows his role, who would have love to play it for the team he likes the most, I mean it's difficult not to like him. And then, he's probably the first guy since a long time that I keep hearing say, to this day, that he'll make the Habs regret it, to show how much he would have love to be here. Hockeywise, surely a 2nd rounder makes not a whole lot of sense. But then the intangibles kick in and it could have make sense after all. See, the Lucic pick from Boston didn't make sense to me when it happened. Not that I totally disliked him but I was questioning so much his hockey sense and his skating that he was a 3rd rounder for me. So I went through the same process for Paquette and thinking that he had a long way to go but could be a candidate to turn it around.

Like I was saying, I liked Kristo and still do. My main concern about him and the main concerns by a lot of "experts" will be his ability to be as offensive in later stages of his career. And while his skating is impressive, there are question marks as far as his offensive play and hockey sense are concerned mostly in higher stages of his career. It's not like he's entirely without any flaws. Just that clearly Timmins and Co went for needs when they started to rack up the D's.....well seems to me that there are other needs to fill now and if Paquette succeeds, it would have been one of them.

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02-23-2009, 02:22 PM
  #91
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Just that clearly Timmins and Co went for needs when they started to rack up the D's.....well seems to me that there are other needs to fill now and if Paquette succeeds, it would have been one of them.
Obviously, but if Kristo pans, so will he (we lack top 6 forwards in the system).

Then again, I didn't like the Kristo pick so much, because my guy (Grachev) is quite clearly developing into much more than I thought he would be at this moment.

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02-23-2009, 02:52 PM
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By the way, I don't know if it was mentioned, but it's not about getting Quebecois players only, but guys who care about the team they will be playing for. And it seems management is looking for those players too.
but when you nickel and dime them on contracts like gainey did to ryder and by not giving any of his many, many free agents a new deal - you (GAINEY) are responsible for losing the team.

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02-23-2009, 04:23 PM
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Obviously, but if Kristo pans, so will he (we lack top 6 forwards in the system).

Then again, I didn't like the Kristo pick so much, because my guy (Grachev) is quite clearly developing into much more than I thought he would be at this moment.
His goal shorthanded on the 3 on 5 at the Worlds was a piece of anthology. We needed big offensive centermen at the time....and still do....

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02-23-2009, 05:22 PM
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I don't believe any organization that takes a bias towards choosing french canadien players just because the media will be happy will ever has a chance at winning, could be why we have'nt won in 16years.

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02-23-2009, 05:25 PM
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I don't believe any organization that takes a bias towards choosing french canadien players just because the media will be happy will ever has a chance at winning, could be why we have'nt won in 16years.


I love how you argue.

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02-23-2009, 08:07 PM
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I don't believe any organization that takes a bias towards choosing french canadien players just because the media will be happy will ever has a chance at winning, could be why we have'nt won in 16years.
but its worse when you are considering coaching or management.

suppose brian burke or lou lamorello are the best gms now or in the world and are a geniuses, whatever(though i dont believe it) BUT they only speak english.

and some here in the press and fans dont want them because they like to listen to press conferences in french with no translators?

i would rather watch the team they assembled and how they play.

that is precisely why once great habs only won 2 cups in 30 years and none in 16 years now.

indianapolis and indiana once were a kkk stronghold. how did the colts organization do once they signed tony dungy as their head coach?

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02-23-2009, 08:22 PM
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And this isn't REAL racism??????????

give me a break!
One more parano from the ROC.

Just what we needed!

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02-24-2009, 10:37 AM
  #98
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I know one thing.....we would have drafted Anisimov instead of Carle in 2006 or would've drafted Grachev instead of Kristo last year, people would be a little more careful with more Canadians and less europeans. And even if I agree that we should be more careful with Russians, if you get the good ones, the ones that are really interesting in coming over, why wouldn't you go for it.

Again, Anisimov (6'4'' 205lbs) who's at 1PPG in the AHL, and Grachev who's just too strong for the OHL with his 6'3'' 212lbs would change a lot of people's minds. Should I also mentioned than both guys are centermen...Rangers will be really scary down the middle for years to come.

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02-24-2009, 11:16 AM
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I know one thing.....we would have drafted Anisimov instead of Carle in 2006 or would've drafted Grachev instead of Kristo last year, people would be a little more careful with more Canadians and less europeans. And even if I agree that we should be more careful with Russians, if you get the good ones, the ones that are really interesting in coming over, why wouldn't you go for it.

Again, Anisimov (6'4'' 205lbs) who's at 1PPG in the AHL, and Grachev who's just too strong for the OHL with his 6'3'' 212lbs would change a lot of people's minds. Should I also mentioned than both guys are centermen...Rangers will be really scary down the middle for years to come.
Grachev is playing on the wings for Brampton right now.

However, he did adjust to the NA game and now brings a physical edge ( )...

But what's just mind-boggling is how we passed over guys who could've come over when it could've easily been found out in interviews (I know Grachev was open about his feelings concering coming over). Some teams (a lot IMO) didn't do their jobs well in that regard (much like Vojnov this year) and they are all gonna pay in the end.

This is just brutal when you think about it. I didn't exactly like the Timmins thing on Berglund being too immature when he was actually trying to help his team stay (or get) in the top league.

They say the most important part of the combine (in the NFL) is the interviews...well ****, why can't people get it right and ask the right questions?

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02-24-2009, 12:14 PM
  #100
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Join Date: Mar 2002
Country: Sark
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
I know one thing.....we would have drafted Anisimov instead of Carle in 2006 or would've drafted Grachev instead of Kristo last year, people would be a little more careful with more Canadians and less europeans. And even if I agree that we should be more careful with Russians, if you get the good ones, the ones that are really interesting in coming over, why wouldn't you go for it.

Again, Anisimov (6'4'' 205lbs) who's at 1PPG in the AHL, and Grachev who's just too strong for the OHL with his 6'3'' 212lbs would change a lot of people's minds. Should I also mentioned than both guys are centermen...Rangers will be really scary down the middle for years to come.
Not that it really matters but you never know what will happen, as the problems with drafting Russians is two fold, one in getting them to come over and two in keeping them here long term, as guys on rookie contracts can only make so much, while they stand to get offers from the KHL for much more. Granted the KHL could be in trouble financially due in part to the price of oil, but I don't claim to be an expert on the financial status of the KHL or Russia.

So the rangers may or may not have problems down the road with these guys, same for every nhl club. I'm sure Nashville thought Radulov was going to be there for a long time, so in hindsight it looks great if you have a young Russian draft pick that's doing well for your club, but on another hand, if you lose a player like Radulov, that's a huge blow to the organization. To me it's all just an additional risk you take when drafting Russians.

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