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The Official we don't need Briere thread

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Old
02-23-2009, 03:51 PM
  #51
sa cyred
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Originally Posted by mikedifr View Post
Excellente poste!!! Ok, as much as I love Eric Lindros.....How many cups did he win here???? How many cups have guys like Gretzky, Yzerman, Sakic, etc. won???? YOU DONT NEED TO BE A LINEBACKER.......SKILL IS IMPORTANT!



Another excellente poste!!



If you are referring to me, I am in Germany for work, but still patrolling as much as possible between my presentations!!!....
Of course you! I know you are one of the few Briere supporters (I am one of those), and at the time I didn't feel like debating, but seemed to have joined in anyway I just know you ussually post pretty good arguments when the Briere topic pops up once per month . I think most of us agree, that if it comes down to having Briere, or someone like J-bo or something on defense, we'd rather take J-bo BUT he has a NTC (or was it NMC.. cant remember) and is going nowhere.

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Old
02-23-2009, 03:56 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
Sigh.. it dont matter if Briere is on the ice when people score...teams will still score with our awessommee soundly defensive and our star goaltenders. We already try to outscore teams cause we get tons of shots on us already, it doesnt matter if Briere is out there on not. We will still get 40 or so shots on us per game. Hopefully Briere will put up points which makes up for it. BRIERE WILL PUT POINTS UP. It doesnt matter if its even strengh or powerplay, he will put up points. He scores two goals, but he is on the ice for one or two gaols... so what. Defense, play defense, offense play offense..., dont blame Briere when our defense or goalies suck
This argument is horribly flawed, as you're not addressing the central point that I am making.

Mike Richards? +23.
Jeff Carter? +12
Metropolit? -2 (without scoring at all).
Powe? +2.

Briere, in an admittedly small sample... -3...while scoring 9 points in 9 games.

Last year.

Richards? +14.
Carter? +6.
Briere? -22...the next closest was Kapanen at -12, and scoring 64 less points than Briere.

Yes, Briere scores points...and that is fine and dandy. However, it absolutely matters that he is out there. If not for the PP numbers, he isn't just a liability, he's outright KILLING YOU. We have a very strong PP without Briere. He will only marginally improve it, if at all.

So...sigh all you want. The numbers don't back up any claim that this team is the same at even strength with and without him.

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02-23-2009, 03:59 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
True or false: At even strength the opponent has been more likely to score than the Flyers with Briere on the ice?

When you discover the factual nature of that question, then you can get back to throwing around claims that individuals are "out of [their] minds."
The Flyers lose the first round of the playoffs last year if Briere is not on the team and thats really all that matters.

Obviously someone would have been on the ice if briere was not so in theory they may not have lost all 3 of these games but most likely at least 1 of them and thats all it would take to lose the series. Game 3 he had 2 goals and an assist, including the game winner. Game 4 he scored the game tying goal in the 3rd period to send the game into overtime, the game knuble won the game in double OT. He also had an assist on the game 7 overtime winner by Lupul.

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02-23-2009, 04:04 PM
  #54
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Okay, here's the problem with the whole "Briere kills our team defense" theory.

Our GAA in 07-08 = 2.77.
Our GAA in 08-09 = 2.88.

And that's with our PK being ranked slightly higher than it was last year. Now we can hem and haw about Biron's play dropping a bit, but at the same time, the quality of our d-men has gone up drastically, yet we are still giving up a whole bunch of goals.

Last year, we gave up 141 5 on 5 goals. This year, through 57 games (48 of them without Danny), we are on pace to give up 148 5 on 5 goals.

Now, I'm going to make a giant leap here and posture that Briere is not the reason we give up a lot of even-strength goals.

Also, keep in mind that our 5 on 5 GAA is going up even though we've added an elite 2 way player back into the lineup.

Is Briere a weaker defensive player? Most definitely. But I think it's very clear at this point that our 5 on 5 defensive woes are not his fault. We suck at 5 on 5 defense with or without Briere in the lineup.

Get the guy with some consistent, skilled linemates (not Knuble and Upshall for instance) and let him do his thing.

Even better, hire a coach who knows how to get a team to play 5 on 5 defense.

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02-23-2009, 04:05 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CannonGoBoom View Post
The Flyers lose the first round of the playoffs last year if Briere is not on the team and thats really all that matters.

Obviously someone would have been on the ice if briere was not so in theory they may not have lost all 3 of these games but most likely at least 1 of them and thats all it would take to lose the series. Game 3 he had 2 goals and an assist, including the game winner. Game 4 he scored the game tying goal in the 3rd period to send the game into overtime, the game knuble won the game in double OT. He also had an assist on the game 7 overtime winner by Lupul.
Perhaps we wouldn't have even been playing the Caps in the first round if Briere hadn't been -22 in the first round? We may have had home ice?

We also don't win Game 7 if Biron doesn't absolutely stand on his head.

So, who the hell knows what could have happened...and all of that is of absolutely zero value for predicting any future events. Briere also saw declining time on the ice throughout that time, and ended up playing the wing because he was getting abused so bad in the Pens series.

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02-23-2009, 04:05 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
This argument is horribly flawed, as you're not addressing the central point that I am making.

Mike Richards? +23.
Jeff Carter? +12
Metropolit? -2 (without scoring at all).
Powe? +2.

Briere, in an admittedly small sample... -3...while scoring 9 points in 9 games.

Last year.

Richards? +14.
Carter? +6.
Briere? -22...the next closest was Kapanen at -12, and scoring 64 less points than Briere.

Yes, Briere scores points...and that is fine and dandy. However, it absolutely matters that he is out there. If not for the PP numbers, he isn't just a liability, he's outright KILLING YOU. We have a very strong PP without Briere. He will only marginally improve it, if at all.

So...sigh all you want. The numbers don't back up any claim that this team is the same at even strength with and without him.
And the point of your argument is what? Gonna riot outside the Center saying that we should trade Briere? I dont see the point in debating something that will not change. Plus I will sigh alot because all people keep doing is bring up "OMG LETS TRADE BRIERE". Well guess what he isnt going anywhere... And it wasnt pointed directly towards you, but I quoted you since you were the latest post. You keep argueing though how Briere should get the boot... even if he's not...

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02-23-2009, 04:07 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
And the point of your argument is what? Gonna riot outside the Center saying that we should trade Briere? I dont see the point in debating something that will not change. Plus I will sigh alot because all people keep doing is bring up "OMG LETS TRADE BRIERE". Well guess what he isnt going anywhere... And it wasnt pointed directly towards you, but I quoted you since you were the latest post. You keep argueing though how Briere should get the boot... even if he's not...
No, what I'm arguing is that claims that "Briere scores goals! Goals make us better!" are specious in nature, and ignore the fact that goals go both ways.

I'm completely resigned to the fact that Briere is going nowhere.

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02-23-2009, 04:10 PM
  #58
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When is he supposed to come back from injury? I havent really looked into it.

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02-23-2009, 04:13 PM
  #59
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When is he supposed to come back from injury? I havent really looked into it.
Friday now.

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02-23-2009, 04:15 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
I'm completely resigned to the fact that Briere is going nowhere.
Unfortunately, I am too.

Thankfully, just 4 more years to go.

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Old
02-23-2009, 04:15 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Opus View Post
Technically, we don't 'need' Briere.

Is he nice to have, sure he is. Bringing him back will be our trade deadline aquisition.

With Carter and Richards busting on the scene like gangbusters...Briere becomes expendable and his salary would be better used elsewhere.

Nobody is discounting that he gives he gives us three solid scoring lines...but his contract right now is a burden. I think we'd all rather have his cap hit in our pocket come this summer, and use it either chore up the defense or goaltending.

Having said that, he's got a NTC, and he's not going anywhere for the foreseeable future.
i agree with what your saying 100 percent!!! exactly how i feel

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02-23-2009, 04:15 PM
  #62
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Unfortunately, I am too.

Thankfully, just 4 more years to go.
6...

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02-23-2009, 04:20 PM
  #63
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I can't believe some of you are seriously using +/- as your argument. Possibly one of the worst stats in all of sports...right up there with Wins for a pitcher.

Care to explain how he came about his +17 the year before he signed with us?

I understand that Briere is bad defensively, I don't think anyone will deny that. But to say that Briere has a negative effect on the team is just ludicrous.

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02-23-2009, 04:23 PM
  #64
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Okay, here's the problem with the whole "Briere kills our team defense" theory.

Our GAA in 07-08 = 2.77.
Our GAA in 08-09 = 2.88.
Scoring is up throughout the league...so you need to take those numbers with some much greater context than you're giving them.

Last year we scored 2.99 goals a game, this year we are scoring 3.26 goals a game. The league leader last year (Ottawa) scored 3.15 goals a game, and the current leader (Detroit) is scoring 3.7 goals a game.

Nashville has the weakest offense in hockey right now, at 2.3 goals a game...last year the weakest offense was the Islanders, at the same number. The 15th ranked offense this year scores at 2.87 goals a game, and last year that number was 2.73 goals a game.

Offense is up. Without taking the time to run the numbers, I would bet our increase of only .11 GAA is beating the mean for the league.

Last year our GDIF (the important number) was 0.22. Right now our GDIF is 0.39. We're a better team against the competition this year, than last year.

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02-23-2009, 04:26 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Jeff VanRichards View Post
I can't believe some of you are seriously using +/- as your argument. Possibly one of the worst stats in all of sports...right up there with Wins for a pitcher.

Care to explain how he came about his +17 the year before he signed with us?


I understand that Briere is bad defensively, I don't think anyone will deny that. But to say that Briere has a negative effect on the team is just ludicrous.
Because the team was REALLY REALLY good. Thomas Vanek was +47 on that club. Derek Roy was +37. Brian Campbell....far from a safe defensive player for a defenseman, was +28 on that team.

+/- is a stat that must be treated with care, but when compared against teammates it can be telling. A bad +/- on a good team is not a good sign. A good +/- on a bad team is a very good sign.

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02-23-2009, 04:29 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Because the team was REALLY REALLY good. Thomas Vanek was +47 on that club. Derek Roy was +37. Brian Campbell....far from a safe defensive player for a defenseman, was +28 on that team.

+/- is a stat that must be treated with care, but when compared against teammates it can be telling. A bad +/- on a good team is not a good sign. A good +/- on a bad team is a very good sign.
The teams also have two different styles of play. The Sabres have a lot more finesse. It's hard to have someone Briere's size to play dump and chase and then barrel into a defender who's six inches bigger than him into the corner.

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02-23-2009, 04:36 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by JLHockeyKnight View Post
The teams also have two different styles of play. The Sabres have a lot more finesse. It's hard to have someone Briere's size to play dump and chase and then barrel into a defender who's six inches bigger than him into the corner.
Buffalo was/is simply a better coached team. Their talent has obviously decreased exponentially since then, but they were really really good at playing the uptempo style as a team unit...which Briere meshed perfectly with. We try to play a similar style, but we're just not as good at it...last year in particular, our D just wasn't good enough to be playing at that speed.

Many of the problems that expose Briere are rampant throughout the team...they're systemic. However, unlike guys like Richards, Carter, Metro, Powe, etc. Briere struggles to make up for the shortcomings in our play on the defensive side of the game. He's not big enough to go and knock guys off the puck down low. He doesn't have the heady defensive play that lets Richards pick off so many passes...just not in his skill set.

You stick him in a game where he can skate north-south, east-west through the neutral zone at speed with the puck and linemates...he's going to score points and take advantage of you. It's tough to play that way.

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02-23-2009, 04:43 PM
  #68
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6...

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02-23-2009, 04:46 PM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Perhaps we wouldn't have even been playing the Caps in the first round if Briere hadn't been -22 in the first round? We may have had home ice?

We also don't win Game 7 if Biron doesn't absolutely stand on his head.

So, who the hell knows what could have happened...and all of that is of absolutely zero value for predicting any future events. Briere also saw declining time on the ice throughout that time, and ended up playing the wing because he was getting abused so bad in the Pens series.
The point was that hes good in the playoffs. So your saying last years team without briere would have had home ice? Or maybe we would have missed the playoffs completely without briere and his 72 points.

Also, I didnt say a word about Biron, he would have been on the team whether briere was on the team or not, that has nothing to do with this at all. Obviously we wouldnt have won without Biron, you can make that case for Kimmo too, but thats not at all what this is about.

And the Pens series doesnt matter either because AGAIN we would not have won the series against Washington if Briere wasnt playing.

And no it doesnt predict future events but you like to talk about trends and the trend is that briere is good in the playoffs, something that we need in the...playoffs.

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02-23-2009, 05:21 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by CannonGoBoom View Post
The point was that hes good in the playoffs. So your saying last years team without briere would have had home ice? Or maybe we would have missed the playoffs completely without briere and his 72 points.

Also, I didnt say a word about Biron, he would have been on the team whether briere was on the team or not, that has nothing to do with this at all. Obviously we wouldnt have won without Biron, you can make that case for Kimmo too, but thats not at all what this is about.

And the Pens series doesnt matter either because AGAIN we would not have won the series against Washington if Briere wasnt playing.

And no it doesnt predict future events but you like to talk about trends and the trend is that briere is good in the playoffs, something that we need in the...playoffs.
Yes it is...you're saying we definitely would not have won without Briere (which is a somewhat ridiculous assertion relying entirely on "what if"). I'm saying we don't win without Biron...yay Briere?

Playoffs...are a small sample. I'll take 72 games over a 7 game playoff series. He's had good playoffs...he'll also have bad playoffs. And reversion to mean is always a good time on the ride down.

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02-23-2009, 05:24 PM
  #71
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Bit unfair. At the time, it looked as if Richards was going to be a 3rd line stalwart and Carter might develop into a 2nd line center...possibly still with a future on the wing, not down the middle.

Richards made the leap last year...and Carter is doing so this year.

What's more problematic to me is what Homer has done since that offseason. The Lupul and Jones contracts this past offseason were really dumb...especially when he then goes and gets Carle. If he keeps Jones through next season...ugh.

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02-23-2009, 05:47 PM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Yes it is...you're saying we definitely would not have won without Briere (which is a somewhat ridiculous assertion relying entirely on "what if"). I'm saying we don't win without Biron...yay Briere?

Playoffs...are a small sample. I'll take 72 games over a 7 game playoff series. He's had good playoffs...he'll also have bad playoffs. And reversion to mean is always a good time on the ride down.
But this isnt about Biron at all, this conversation is about Briere, is it not? Just as you assume we lose the series if biron doesnt play, I assume we lose if Briere doesnt play...neither is a fact, you state yours as if it is a fact which it is not. We wouldnt have made it to a game 7 for Biron to steal if Briere wasnt on the team and winning games for them earlier in the series.

Briere has been as good as anyone in the league in the playoffs since the lockout, thats much more than a 7 game sample. In 51 playoff games since the lockout Briere has 50 points. The playoffs are a much tighter defensive game and he has still managed to put up over 20 goals and 50 points since the lockout, thats much more than a 7 game sample. Some people can handle the pressure of the playoffs, some cant, Briere has PROVEN he is as good as anyone when the season is on the line and thats someone I want on this team.

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02-23-2009, 05:52 PM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Scoring is up throughout the league...so you need to take those numbers with some much greater context than you're giving them.

Last year we scored 2.99 goals a game, this year we are scoring 3.26 goals a game. The league leader last year (Ottawa) scored 3.15 goals a game, and the current leader (Detroit) is scoring 3.7 goals a game.

Nashville has the weakest offense in hockey right now, at 2.3 goals a game...last year the weakest offense was the Islanders, at the same number. The 15th ranked offense this year scores at 2.87 goals a game, and last year that number was 2.73 goals a game.

Offense is up. Without taking the time to run the numbers, I would bet our increase of only .11 GAA is beating the mean for the league.

Last year our GDIF (the important number) was 0.22. Right now our GDIF is 0.39. We're a better team against the competition this year, than last year.
Not really correct.

Let's look at those GAA stats again then.

Team rank in GAA in 2007-2008 = 18th
Team rank in GAA in 2008-2009 = 17th.

Team rank in 5 on 5 GAA in 2007-2008 = 19th, separated from the 13th spot by 3 goals.

Team rank in 5 on 5 GAA in 2008-2009 = 13th, separated from the 19th spot by 3 goals.

So basically, outside of random statistical variation, we've stayed the exact same in team GAA and 5 on 5 GAA. And btw, looking up those took me 3 minutes, it's not like this is complicated.

Your GDIF is an interesting point, but all that shows is that we've gotten better offensively and that's explained very easily.

Gagne has essentially replaced Briere's offensive production, Richards is on pace for a better year, Carter is on pace for a much better year, Hartnell is on pace for a much better year, and we added a puckmoving D which was a severe problem for this team last year. This team has experienced a slight increase from 25th in 5 on 5 GS in 2007-2008 to 19th in 5 on 5 GS this year. There's a difference of 11 goals between the 19th and 25th placed teams this year, so there's a little more of a visible difference, but not a huge one.

My original point is that this team has remained in the exact same place defensively, with or without Briere, all the games this season support that point and so do all the numbers.

The difference is that we've become very slightly better at 5 on 5 offense (and even that could just be a normal variation) with Carter and Hartnell breaking out and getting some offensive contribution from all 3 defensive pairings.

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02-23-2009, 05:53 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by CannonGoBoom View Post
But this isnt about Biron at all, this conversation is about Briere, is it not? Just as you assume we lose the series if biron doesnt play, I assume we lose if Briere doesnt play...neither is a fact, you state yours as if it is a fact which it is not. We wouldnt have made it to a game 7 for Biron to steal if Briere wasnt on the team and winning games for them earlier in the series.
By making it an issue of a claim about a team winning a playoff series, you bring in context that goes well beyond an analysis of any one player. Briere had a good series. No doubt. Vinny Prospal was great against the Caps, too.

And my fact directly problematizes the usefulness of yours. Biron certainly wouldn't have been there in Game 7 if not for Briere...and a host of other players on the team that had nice series. Timonen and Coburn, for example, were our only defensive pairing not getting lit up in that series.

Quote:
Briere has been as good as anyone in the league in the playoffs since the lockout, thats much more than a 7 game sample. In 51 playoff games since the lockout Briere has 50 points. The playoffs are a much tighter defensive game and he has still managed to put up over 20 goals and 50 points since the lockout, thats much more than a 7 game sample. Some people can handle the pressure of the playoffs, some cant, Briere has PROVEN he is as good as anyone when the season is on the line and thats someone I want on this team.
Everyone can handle it. Over long samples, almost every player in the NHL performs exactly to the same level in the playoffs as they do during the regular season. Briere is a great offensive player...are you suggesting it's somehow remarkable that he has put up points in the playoffs?

It's what you'd expect him to do. That isn't the issue at the heart of his game under scrutiny, however.

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02-23-2009, 05:53 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Bit unfair. At the time, it looked as if Richards was going to be a 3rd line stalwart and Carter might develop into a 2nd line center...possibly still with a future on the wing, not down the middle.

Richards made the leap last year...and Carter is doing so this year.

What's more problematic to me is what Homer has done since that offseason. The Lupul and Jones contracts this past offseason were really dumb...especially when he then goes and gets Carle. If he keeps Jones through next season...ugh.
agreed. He needs to manage these new contracts better IMO. WIth JvR and Giroux- was Lupul neccesary?? I do not beleive so

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