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Old
02-23-2009, 02:29 PM
  #176
ForzaZuffa
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
See Squiffy, and perhaps you can help tank nation understand this position better.. More wins is counter productive during a rebuild process. Every two points moves them further away from the greatest reward of a non playoff year which is a higher draft pick and potentially a better player.

Now I don't remember your position on Leafs trading up to get Schenn, but lots of people have complained bitterly at the loss of additional picks that were required to make it happen.. Now this makes even less sense in the big picture to me because its essentially what wishing for wins now has forced to happen..

If fans are happy and cheering for the meaningless wins and then disappointed and angry at the loss of picks, its their own catch 22 situation they have created and there seems to be no consistency and a complete contradiction. The Wins are the exact trigger that results in the situation to then make more sacrifices to get back to the point, where less wins would have taken you naturally..

To me this seems like the equivalent of shooting yourself in your own foot and then complaining how much it hurts afterward. Now of course cheering doesn't change the results, but complaining about the negative effects seems contradictory to me.

Tank Nation is consistent in its position in that we realize that sacrifices of Wins today is more logical then sacrifices of more draft picks to get higher in the draft. Accepting failure in the present as the desired evil to hopefully bring us to a brighter tomorrow when that draft pick received as a result pays big dividends in the future..

Fans enjoying what little success there is in the present, seem to be always living in the present, and seem to lack the vision to see the path to a brighter future. Not meant as an offense but just trying to understand how prolonging the long-term success, by present results is beneficial to the process
.
I see little to argue with in your views of a brighter tomorrow, other than the fact that I don't see MLSE ever accepting their only choice for ultimate Cup success unfortunately, which is a complete rebuild. I'm not saying it won't happen, just that I think MLSE is too prideful in wanting to 'compete' in the present. IMO competing isn't finishing 11th in the conference, unless you miss by a win or two. But as it stands right now, being 12 pts out of 8th, pretty soon (as in Dday) it's just time to admit defeat and cut your ties to viable trading assets to bring in a bundle of young assets (prospects or picks) for a brighter tomorrow. But I also agree with the contention that if you're Burke, you don't just give Gabriella or Kubina away, but barter the best possible deal if it's there. If come March 4th no deal is done and Burke comes out and says there was no great deal to be had, I suppose we have to consider taking that at face value and accepting it. But Burke tends to speak out of both sides of the mouth, so, who knows what to believe??

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02-23-2009, 02:31 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post

If fans are happy and cheering for the meaningless wins and then disappointed and angry at the loss of picks, its their own catch 22 situation they have created and there seems to be no consistency and a complete contradiction. The Wins are the exact trigger that results in the situation to then make more sacrifices to get back to the point, where less wins would have taken you naturally..

To me this seems like the equivalent of shooting yourself in your own foot and then complaining how much it hurts afterward. Now of course cheering doesn't change the results, but complaining about the negative effects seems contradictory to me.

Tank Nation is consistent in its position in that we realize that sacrifices of Wins today is more logical then sacrifices of more draft picks to get higher in the draft. Accepting failure in the present as the desired evil to hopefully bring us to a brighter tomorrow when that draft pick received as a result pays big dividends in the future..

Fans enjoying what little success there is in the present, seem to be always living in the present, and seem to lack the vision to see the path to a brighter future. Not meant as an offense but just trying to understand how prolonging the long-term success, by present results is beneficial to the process.
how exactly do 'wins' have anything to do with throwing away draft picks on a jamal mayers or signing a jeff finger to a 3.5 million dollar contract??? tank nation is no more consistent on their position than the the rest of the fans on this board. pretty much everyone realizes change was needed. pretty much everyone knows JFJ figured this out but wasn't allowed the opportunity to do his own re-build and was instead handed the mandate to make a very broken team in cap trouble a playoff team. why is it ytou have to repeatably inform us that cheering for a win is counter productive to the 'big picture' and then completely sweep under the carpet that fletchers mis-management cost the team precious draft picks (just like all the other GM's before him) when a re-build is what was obviously needed since the lock-out? you make no sense. people that cheer aren't for a re-build and aren't real fans, those same people that question the mis-management of team assets during the re-build 'don't see the big picture'. the only consistency here is in your 100% blind,ignorant acceptance of everything fletcher 'accomplished' (and im use that word loosely) in his tenure as GM. and you talk about sheep.

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02-23-2009, 02:37 PM
  #178
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up until the new year people were using the pens as a rebuild example...

does that still hold true?


how you build a good team does not matter, however maintaining a good team is much more difficult then building one IMO

and in some ways it takes a little luck.... w/o the straight up LUCK of zetty and dats (i know they continue to draft well, however they would have picked them with their 1st pick if they actually thought they'd be anywhere near this good) the wings would be a shadow of what they are...

many many teams have been bottom feeders for years, and are still barely more then that (blue-jackets, panthers, yotes, etc..) to say it is a forsure is too be fooled again...

signing old players past their prime doesn't work (we've tried that).
being home-country-biastest doesn't work (we've tried that).
however building a team with a style in mind works (dallas, nucks, wild, NJ, buffalo)

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02-23-2009, 02:37 PM
  #179
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And we all know how quickly things can change at the last minute. If a team like Columbus calls Burke up on deadline day offering up Voracek or something for Kubina then I'd have to believe Burke would call Kubina and ask him to waive his NTC. I'm still not sure why any player in his right mind would want to stay in our situation when the team is clearly in a rebuild and Pavel isn't exactly getting any younger.

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Old
02-23-2009, 02:37 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by EazyB97 View Post
Re-tool or rebuild? You claim re-tooling will only lead to mediocrity, and a rebuild is the only way to anything more. I "constantly" bring it up because you continue to make posts like this. Ones that say retooling can't work here.
Like I stated in my previous post, I do not believe (for many reasons) that a re-tool will work at this time for this particulaur team. That doesn't mean it couldn't work, I just feel it is extremely counterproductive for this particulaur team, given its past attempts, prospect pool, and aging veterans. And as many others have stated the shelf life of a re-tool is generally shorter then a rebuild.


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Considering I'm stating my opinion on a subject and not following anything that's been said in the past, it's incorrect. The Kool-Aid "joke" is a reference to suicide pact where one "leader" gets the other members to give their life (drinking the poison kool-aid) because he has persuaded them into thinking this is the right thing to do. How does that work into my post?
Like I said, a re-tool is counter productive for this organization, and we as fans have been lead to believe that this is the right way to build a team through the tenures of JFJ and Quinn. Despite proven results to the contrary, thus anyone who still believes a re-tool will work for the leafs is buying into the posison because they have been persuaded by this orgnaization (over the years) that this is the right path to take. But if you would prefer I could call you insane, attempting the same thing but expecting different results. If you disagree with this statement then you are in essence contradicting everything you have said about Quinn and JFJ not being awful managers, because thats the only way a re-tool will fail right? Through bad management?

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Old
02-23-2009, 02:44 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by ForzaZuffa View Post
I see little to argue with in your views of a brighter tomorrow, other than the fact that I don't see MLSE ever accepting their only choice for ultimate Cup success unfortunately, which is a complete rebuild. I'm not saying it won't happen, just that I think MLSE is too prideful in wanting to 'compete' in the present. IMO competing isn't finishing 11th in the conference, unless you miss by a win or two. But as it stands right now, being 12 pts out of 8th, pretty soon (as in Dday) it's just time to admit defeat and cut your ties to viable trading assets to bring in a bundle of young assets (prospects or picks) for a brighter tomorrow. But I also agree with the contention that if you're Burke, you don't just give Gabriella or Kubina away, but barter the best possible deal if it's there. If come March 4th no deal is done and Burke comes out and says there was no great deal to be had, I suppose we have to consider taking that at face value and accepting it. But Burke tends to speak out of both sides of the mouth, so, who knows what to believe??
i agree with you floppy. what most people mistakingly beleive is that the past GM's drove the bus when it came to 'hockey' related decisions that affected the team. my hope as a fan (even though he wouldn't have been my first choice) is that Burke has full control over hockey operations and as such MLSE won't be influencing the direction the team needs to take to improve. he has a five year contract, plenty of time to see what he accomplishes, and not such a short deal where he feels he needs to suceed now in order to secure employent (see JFJ). i'll cheer wins and i'll accept the losses as long as i see the team moving forward.
as far as kubina not waiving goes. most of the 'contenders' have little in the way of capspace anyways. they want to make a trade involving picks and prospects so as to not upset their roster. salary would have to be coming back. my thoughts are (if you are going to do it) trade him in the summer when all 30 teams can offer something. its simple supply and demand economics.

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Old
02-23-2009, 02:44 PM
  #182
My Sweet Shadow
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Trade deadline of the offseason ... it doesn't really matter. If Burke wants to move him it's going to happen one way or the other.

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Old
02-23-2009, 02:47 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by MSP4LYFE View Post
Like I said, a re-tool is counter productive for this organization, and we as fans have been lead to believe that this is the right way to build a team through the tenures of JFJ and Quinn. Despite proven results to the contrary, thus anyone who still believes a re-tool will work for the leafs is buying into the posison because they have been persuaded by this orgnaization (over the years) that this is the right path to take. But if you would prefer I could call you insane, attempting the same thing but expecting different results. If you disagree with this statement then you are in essence contradicting everything you have said about Quinn and JFJ not being awful managers, because thats the only way a re-tool will fail right? Through bad management?
So it looks like you've completely mis-used it. I haven't said we should re-tool, I've said it can work. I don't care what method we use and I said this a number of times, so the Kool-Aid remark is simply wrong. What I'm saying actually disagree's with the MLSE "Kool-Aid" of the JFJ regime, since I say changes are necessary and we don't need to continually make the playoffs where "Anything can happen". Do you understand how the Kool-Aid comment doesn't fit and you've misused it? If I said something like "As MLSE has shown in the past, a retool will get us into the playoffs where anything can happen" then you have an argument. However my point is changes were necessary and still are. They can come in a number of ways, but they must happen and this team must completely change their outlook.

As for your last comment, I believe Quinn did a decent job early on, but made a mistake on the Nolan trade. I don't really think two ECF apperances is just "mediocre", but had he been a little better, we could've seen much better results. JFJ made bad trades that didn't work-out. Very, Very tough position to be in, but he should've been better. Few could've gotten the results MLSE wanted in his situation, but some definately could have. I don't think he's "Awful" just because of the difficulty and Quinn got good results as a GM.

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Old
02-23-2009, 02:48 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by MSP4LYFE View Post
Like I stated in my previous post, I do not believe (for many reasons) that a re-tool will work at this time for this particulaur team. That doesn't mean it couldn't work, I just feel it is extremely counterproductive for this particulaur team, given its past attempts, prospect pool, and aging veterans. And as many others have stated the shelf life of a re-tool is generally shorter then a rebuild.




Like I said, a re-tool is counter productive for this organization, and we as fans have been lead to believe that this is the right way to build a team through the tenures of JFJ and Quinn. Despite proven results to the contrary, thus anyone who still believes a re-tool will work for the leafs is buying into the posison because they have been persuaded by this orgnaization (over the years) that this is the right path to take. But if you would prefer I could call you insane, attempting the same thing but expecting different results. If you disagree with this statement then you are in essence contradicting everything you have said about Quinn and JFJ not being awful managers, because thats the only way a re-tool will fail right? Through bad management?
the problem with your thinking is 1) quinn never had to deal with the cap. he had 'contending teams' and wasted assets in oder to bring in that player to put them over the top. 2) JFJ WANTED to re-build, MLSE wanted to sell playoff tickets. so yes, it does depend on management, hopefully now we have a true manager of hockey operations.

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Old
02-23-2009, 05:30 PM
  #185
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I have an "out there" conspiracy theory that one can only hope might be the case.

What if Kubina said to Burke "I'm not going to submit a list, but if people are inquiring about me you can let me know what the team is and what the deal is and I'll think about it."

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Old
02-23-2009, 05:56 PM
  #186
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I have an "out there" conspiracy theory that one can only hope might be the case.

What if Kubina said to Burke "I'm not going to submit a list, but if people are inquiring about me you can let me know what the team is and what the deal is and I'll think about it."
This does make some sense...we can only hope its true because trading Kubina only helps solidify our drafting position come the end of the season.

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